The Heresy of Investigative Judgment

[DHK]

Ok - but as you saw in my prior post - i keep giving several examples "in my own words" where the key elements to the Investigative doctrine show up in Daniel 7.

1. Investigative: in the form of "books opened" - data reviewed, evidence for the myriads and myriads of that court room.

2. The court of Dan 7:9-10 and the judgment of Dan 7:22-27.

3. Fact that it is preAdvent as we saw clearly in vs 27.



Question: I can't believe you would have just posted that had you actually read the question for that post above. Are you even reading the posts?

Admit it - you are not actually reading these posts beyond a one or two sentence snip.

It shows.

in Christ,

Bob

Your interpretation of Daniel 7 is highly speculative and holds no water.

 

[BobRyan]

Your interpretation of Daniel 7 is highly speculative and holds no water.

I post the bible and quotes from the text showing where the 'details' support the doctrine and you post an "I don't like it" as your solution?

Really?

That's it??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Lets look now at the similar prophecy given in Chapter 7. You will see as the passage is read that more information is given about each kingdom.

Daniel 7:1-8, KJV
1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.
2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and [it had] three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Rather than a statue as in Nebuchadnezzar dream the four kingdoms are represested by four beasts that come up out of a sea. Three of these beasts are known animals with some added features, the fourth beast is different and dissimiliar from any real beast. We have already alluded to the meaning of the four beasts. However. before we discuss these creatures further we will look at the next passage of scripture.

Daniel 7:9-14, KJV
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

In this passage of scripture we have a picture of God sitting in judgment

Credit where credit is due. 10 pages in and OldRegular finally got himself to actually quote Daniel 7.

That is at least "a start".

The other good news for OldRegular is that he actually gets the link back to Daniel 2 correct and the link up of the 4 empires starting with Babylon.

Anyone reading with a study bible probably sees this in their charts - but it is correct - so credit where credit is due.

I am happy for every little sign of progress.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

8. History shows that persecution of the Church by Imperial Rome began almost immediately. Imperial Rome no longer exists but the “horn with eyes” continues to persecute the Church. So what does this horn represent? I Believe it represents the Anti Christ. At various times in history the Anti Christ may manifest himself in different ways. I have two commentaries, one by a 19th century Baptist, the second by a 20th century Lutheran, who believe that the papacy is the AntiChrist.

9. The final message of Daniel’s vision is that the Kingdom of God is victorious. That is that message of the Bible. It is particularly the message of the prophetic books, especially the book of Revelation.

And again - credit where credit is due

OldRegular comes up with the right answer for the 11th horn in Dan 7 - that comes up among the TEN - uproots three of the TEN and persecutes the saints and dominates for 1260 years (during the dark ages).

1798 the French General Berthier captures the Pope who dies in exile and the Holy Roman Empire ceases to be - and the Papacy even loses the Vatican for a while.

"The deadly wound" is delivered as mentioned in Rev 13.

This knowledge use to be more common among Protestants - but it seems to be dying out (probably due to the new bible-avoidance and any-ol-excuse-will-do ideas taking over). in any case - I am glad to see some signs of "life" still left.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

I thought it was amazing that there is "zero interest in the Bible basis for the judgment doctrine" that is the subject of this thread - as shown repeatedly in the case of Daniel 7.

I think if you ignore the text of Dan 7 'enough' you can eventually get yourself to the point of thinking that maybe -- Daniel 7 does not exist.

Apparently that is what is going on in that post above.

So... I will post some "actual Bible" - so the bible-avoidance group can have something to "avoid".

Enjoy!

The pre-advent Investigative Judgment in heaven - is shown in Daniel 7 (AND is accepted by the Seventh-day Adventist Church).

Investigative: as in -- it is a judgement based on data/evidence contained in books of record. "the court sat and the books were opened" - this is highlighted in my quote

A preconceived idea coming from your loyalty to a false prophet EGW.
There is nothing about an investigation in this verse--nothing!
As I said, your interpretation is highly speculative.

Pre-Advent:

It is shown in the chapter to take place after the Roman Empire falls, after the 1260 years dark ages of persecution of the saints that follows the fall of Pagan Rome at some point - but before the 2nd coming of Christ and the setting up of Christ's Kingdom.

There is nothing in the passage that says 1260 years.
There is nothing in the passage that refers to the dark ages.
There is nothing to refer to 1260 years of persecution.
--Your interpretation is highly speculative and very much colored by EGW's "The Great Controversy."

It is also shown in the text - to include the saints as subjects of the judgment for "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". also highlighted in the text - in the quote.

You don't even know who "the saints" are referring to.
Thus again, your interpretation is highly speculative.

Hence my repeated appeal to "Bible details".

You don't have any details; you have just presented speculation and that is all.

Daniel 7 for those who prefer - the actual Bible.

You ignored the actual Bible, and presented it just like a Muslim would. IOW, you didn't shed any real light here, just your own speculation.

 

[BobRyan]

so while I do point to a lot of accuracy in OldRegular's post on Daniel 7 - I do not see anything there to challenge the statements already made about the chapter which are -

1. Investigative: in the form of "books opened" - data reviewed, evidence for the myriads and myriads of that court room.

2. The court of Dan 7:9-10 and the judgment of Dan 7:22-27.

3. Fact that it is preAdvent as we saw clearly in vs 27.

4. The fat that it takes place after the 1260 years of dark ages (times time and 1/2 time) persecution of the saints by the little horn. (I think even the Protestant reformers get the identity of that little horn.) - which is after the division of Rome into 10 parts and after the rise of an 11th horn power from within the Roman Empire that is to rule for 1260 years during the dark ages.

5. Saints are included as the subject of the Judgment for Dan 7:22 says "Judgment was passed in favor of the saints" NASB.

I think this has been posted half a dozen times by me so far.

===========================

DHK I think is confused about the 1260 years of Daniel 7 - in the formula "Times Time and 1/2 time" but here is some help in this day for year model that Daniel uses in chapters 7,8,9.

1. In Daniel 4:32 "seven times" is "seven years" you can see this in the text and notice it in the margin of your Bible. Nothing new there.

2. In Daniel 9 -- 70 weeks in day-for-year Bible prophetic time is 490 years. (hint this is how the Bible predicted the first coming of Christ and the point of the start of His ministry - His baptism. His anointing by the Holy Spirit for ministry).

3. In Rev 11:2-3 Forty two prophetic months is said to be 1260 prophetic days (1260 literal years). Which means 30 days per month in apocalyptic prophetic timelines. In Rev 12:14 that same period of time is called "Time Times and 1/2 time" 3.5 prophetic years = 42 prophetic months = 1260 prophetic days.

I think even many of the protestant reformers figure this one out.

4. In Daniel 7 the time between the division of the pagan Roman empire and the rise to dominance of the 11th horn (that OldRegular correctly identified as the papacy... and the end of the dark ages persecution of the saints - is 1260 years.

5. Ezek 4:5-6 God says that in symbolic time prophecy that he gives us "a day for a year". Interesting how that worked out even in the Numbers 14:34 case with the 12 spies in Canaan 40 days and so God said He would give them a year for every day, 40 years for 40 days.

Turns out - history has a thing or two to say about that fact - and as noted the Papacy receives a "deadly wound" in 1798 when the French general Berthier takes the Pope captive - the Pope dies in exile the Holy Roman Empire is abolished, and the result that the Papacy did not even have the Vatican as a state entity for a short period of time.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[evangelist-7]

Not sure why so many here find this to be such a difficult concept ...

Roberto says he's not sure why all of the avoidance of Scriptural texts!

'Tis obvious to me that ...
Baptists prefer to follow their easy doctrines instead of following what Scripture insists we must do:
Be obedient to God's commands!
Be led by the Holy Spirit!
Co-operate with God's Spirit to sanctified unto holiness, for without holiness no one will see the Lord!
.

 

[OldRegular]

Just to set the record straight!

8. History shows that persecution of the Church by Imperial Rome began almost immediately. Imperial Rome no longer exists but the “horn with eyes” continues to persecute the Church. So what does this horn represent? I Believe it represents the Anti Christ. At various times in history the Anti Christ may manifest himself in different ways. I have two commentaries, one by a 19th century Baptist, the second by a 20th century Lutheran, who believe that the papacy is the AntiChrist.

9. The final message of Daniel’s vision is that the Kingdom of God is victorious. That is that message of the Bible. It is particularly the message of the prophetic books, especially the book of Revelation.

Notice I did not say that the last horn, the “horn with eyes”, was the "papacy". I said it "represents" the antichrist. I also said that I had two commentaries that said the papacy was the antichrist. I did not say that.

Also notice that there is absolutely no mention of the heretical Investigative Judgment. The judgment is of the four kingdoms that persecuted the people of God.

When it comes to the Antichrist I will show who and what are the Antichrist.

The investigative judgment doctrine, peculiar to Seventh-day Adventists, teaches that in fulfillment of Old Testament sanctuary typology, Christ entered into the second apartment of the sanctuary in heaven in 1844 in order to begin a work of "investigative judgment" to see who was worthy of eternal life, both of those still living and those dead.-------http://caic.org.au/biblebase/sda/investjudge.htm

The Seventh Day Adventists are the Antichrist because they deny that salvation is only by the Grace of God. Yet they say Salvation is reserved for those who are "worthy"! Just who is worthy of Salvation? No One! That is the reason that Jesus Christ died! These heretics are denying, not just the efficacy, but the necessity of the death of Jesus Christ!


In 1877, Uriah Smith, an early Adventist, declared, "Christ did not make the atonement when he shed his blood upon the cross. Let this fact be fixed forever in the mind”.-------http://caic.org.au/biblebase/sda/investjudge.htm

Uriah Smith and the Seventh Day Adventists are the Antichrist because they insist that Jesus Christ by his death on the cross did not make full atonement for the sins of his people.

Ellen White herself declared (or plagiarized) in The Great Controversy that,"before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended." (1844).-------http://caic.org.au/biblebase/sda/investjudge.htm

Ellen White and the Seventh Day Adventists are the Antichrist because they insist that Jesus Christ by his death on the cross did not make full atonement for the sins of his people.

There is even found in "The Great Controversy" this denial of Him as our absolute mediator. 

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil." -------http://caic.org.au/biblebase/sda/investjudge.htm

The Seventh Day Adventists are the Antichrist because they deny that Jesus Christ is the only and essential mediator between man and God.

3. This judgment determines the eternal destiny of every professing believer. No one can be sure of eternal life until this judgment is complete. "The righteous dead will not be raised until after the judgment at which they are accounted worthy of ‘the resurrection of life.’ Hence they will not be present in person at the tribunal when their records are examined and their cases decided. ... Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected ... all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. ... The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another. ... Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. ... When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death" (Ellen White, The Great Controversy, pp. 425, 431-432).

The Seventh Day Adventists are the Antichrist because of their denial of the sufficiency of the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Note: LeRoy Froom, an Adventist leader wrote that if the church didn't have the Investigative Judgment message that, "One would have no justifiable place in the religious world, no distinctive denominational mission and message, no excuse for functioning as a separate church entity today." Movement of Destiny, p. 542.------
http://www.truthorfables.com/investi...ade_simple.htm

LeRoy Froom and the Seventh Day Adventists are the Antichrist because they deliberately develop unbiblical doctrines to entice the ignorant and unlearned!

Scripture tells us the following:

Titus 3:10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

It is my opinion that those who uphold and teach the Investigative Judgment are Antichrists because they are denying the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. They and that teaching must be rejected, period.

 

[DHK]

so while I do point to a lot of accuracy in OldRegular's post on Daniel 7 - I do not see anything there to challenge the statements already made about the chapter which are -

1. Investigative: in the form of "books opened" - data reviewed, evidence for the myriads and myriads of that court room.

There is no investigation. You are inferring that from two sources:
1. a phrase in the Bible.
2. EGW's writings which is heresy. One source is just an inference from a phrase, nothing solid. The other source is from a female false prophetess whom the Bible condemns.

Compare Scripture with Scripture for the meaning of the word:
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:
--There is no investigation here. It is a final sentence of doom where all standing before God are cast into the Lake of Fire. There is no investigation, as is clearly shown in verse 15:
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--All were pronounced guilty. Not one saved person was present. All were cast into the Lake of Fire. No investigation was done.

2. The court of Dan 7:9-10 and the judgment of Dan 7:22-27.

3. Fact that it is preAdvent as we saw clearly in vs 27.

All speculation, according to your own interpretation and then applied in whatever way EGW wants it to be applied.

4. The fat that it takes place after the 1260 years of dark ages (times time and 1/2 time) persecution of the saints by the little horn. (I think even the Protestant reformers get the identity of that little horn.) - which is after the division of Rome into 10 parts and after the rise of an 11th horn power from within the Roman Empire that is to rule for 1260 years during the dark ages.

And if Christ doesn't come for another thousand years perhaps today will be the dark ages? Your speculation on past history is just that--speculation! You don't seem to have a clue what 1260 means in context.
The term 1260 usually refers to days, as 42 months, or 3 1/2 years, a time, times, and half a time, (3 1/2 years),
The Tribulation is seven years in length divided into two periods of 3 1/2 years each. The last half, also referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," is the 3 1/2 that is usually referred to in the Bible. It is 1260 days that is mentioned here. It is 42 months in duration. It is a time (one year), times (two years), and half a time (half a year) to make up 3 1/2 years. All of these terms one can find in the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
--The two witnesses prophesied during the last half of the Tribulation for 3 1/2 years or 42 months or 1260 days, and then they will be killed by the people. They will lie in the street for 3 1/2 days, and then God will resurrect them. After that the rest of the plagues will come quickly and soon Christ will come again.
Compare Scripture with Scripture. The terms are defined in Scripture. There are no 1260 years.

5. Saints are included as the subject of the Judgment for Dan 7:22 says "Judgment was passed in favor of the saints" NASB.

As it is 1260 days that are being referred to, it is the 3 1/2 year period of the latter half of the Tribulation. The "saints" there are the "saints" or the Jews that will be saved during that period of time. Daniel is speaking of the saints of his own people who will turn to the Messiah.

DHK I think is confused about the 1260 years of Daniel 7 - in the formula "Times Time and 1/2 time" but here is some help in this day for year model that Daniel uses in chapters 7,8,9.

I am not the one confused. Those who follow the teachings of EGW are obviously confused.

 

[BobRyan]

From page 1 of this thread.

"Meanwhile" -- Back to the "actual" Bible

The pre-advent Judgment of Dan 7 - based on

investigating the records/books of heaven.

Dan 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

...

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
...
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.



================================================
Paul and the future Judgment.

Romans 2

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

And the "reward" for "Bad deeds"??? "The wages of sin is Death" Rom 6:23

And of course more recently --

so while I do point to a lot of accuracy in OldRegular's post on Daniel 7 - I do not see anything there to challenge the statements already made about the chapter which are -

1. Investigative: in the form of "books opened" - data reviewed, evidence for the myriads and myriads of that court room.

2. The court of Dan 7:9-10 and the judgment of Dan 7:22-27.

3. Fact that it is preAdvent as we saw clearly in vs 27.

4. The fact that it takes place after the 1260 years of dark ages (times time and 1/2 time) persecution of the saints by the little horn. (I think even the Protestant reformers get the identity of that little horn.) - which is after the division of Rome into 10 parts and after the rise of an 11th horn power from within the Roman Empire that is to rule for 1260 years during the dark ages.

5. Saints are included as the subject of the Judgment for Dan 7:22 says "Judgment was passed in favor of the saints" NASB.

I think this has been posted half a dozen times by me so far.

Daniel 7
1. Investigative: in the form of "books opened" - data reviewed, evidence for the myriads and myriads of that court room.

Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.



2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

The record books of heaven are accurate -- and those who imagine that they will not be held accountable are living a false dream.

Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them" -- "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

4. The fact that it takes place after the 1260 years of dark ages (times time and 1/2 time) persecution of the saints by the little horn. (I think even the Protestant reformers get the identity of that little horn.) - which is after the division of Rome into 10 parts and after the rise of an 11th horn power from within the Roman Empire that is to rule for 1260 years during the dark ages.

And if Christ doesn't come for another thousand years perhaps today will be the dark ages? Your speculation on past history is just that--speculation! You don't seem to have a clue what 1260 means

Your confusion about the 1260 years and the dark ages is more apparent than your wild idea that we are in for another 1000 years of the dark ages persecution of the saints.

However many readers here will be glad to know - that the confusion that DHK has on this topic is not shared by everyone.


[FONT=&quot]Day Year – and Methodists. Adam Clarke etc.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Methodists[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Adam Clarke[/FONT]'s commentary published in 1831 supports the interpretation that the little horn is Papal Rome by this comment "Among Protestant writers this is considered to be the popedom."[FONT=&quot][15][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He stated that the 1260-year period should commence in 755, the year [FONT=&quot]Pepin the Short[/FONT] actually invaded Lombard territory, resulting in the Pope's elevation from a subject of the [FONT=&quot]Byzantine Empire[/FONT] to an independent [FONT=&quot]head of state[/FONT].[FONT=&quot][16][/FONT] The [FONT=&quot]Donation of Pepin[/FONT], which first occurred in 754 and again in 756 gave to the Pope [FONT=&quot]temporal power[/FONT] of the [FONT=&quot]Papal States[/FONT]. His time line, which began in 755 will end in 2015. But his introductory comments on Daniel 7 added 756 as an alternative commencement date [FONT=&quot][17][/FONT] Based on this, commentators anticipate the end of the Papacy in 2016:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“As the date of the prevalence and reign of antichrist must, according to the principles here laid down, be fixed at A.D. 756, therefore the end of this period of his reign must be A.D. 756 added to 1260; equal to 2016, the year of the Christian era set by infinite wisdom for this long-prayed-for event. Amen and amen!" [FONT=&quot][18][/FONT][FONT=&quot][19][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]History[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This view was recognized by the Jews[FONT=&quot][5][/FONT] as seen in Daniel 9:24-27, and as seen in Jesus' use of the day-year principle in Luke 13 verses 31-33, and in the early church.[FONT=&quot][6][/FONT] The day-year principle was first used in Christian exposition in 380 [FONT=&quot]AD[/FONT] by [FONT=&quot]Tychonius[/FONT], who interpreted the three and a half days of [FONT=&quot]Revelation[/FONT] 11:9 as three and a half years, writing 'three days and a half; that is, three years and six months' ('dies tres et dimidium; id est annos tres et menses sex').[FONT=&quot][7][/FONT] In the 5th century [FONT=&quot]Faustus of Riez[/FONT] gave the same interpretation of Revelation 11:9, writing 'three and a half days which correspond to three years and six months' ('Tres et dimidius dies tribus annis et sex mensibus respondent),[FONT=&quot][8][/FONT] and in c. 550 [FONT=&quot]Primasius[/FONT] also gave the same interpretation, writing 'it is possible to understand the three days and a half as three years and six months' ('Tres dies et dimidium possumus intelligere tres annos et sex menses').[FONT=&quot][8][/FONT] The same interpretation of [FONT=&quot]Revelation[/FONT] 11:9 was given by the later Christian expositors [FONT=&quot]Bede[/FONT] (730 AD), as well as [FONT=&quot]Anspert[/FONT], [FONT=&quot]Arethas[/FONT], [FONT=&quot]Haymo[/FONT][[FONT=&quot]disambiguation needed[/FONT]], and [FONT=&quot]Berengaud[/FONT] (all of the ninth century).[FONT=&quot][8][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Primasius[/FONT] appears to have been the first to appeal directly to previous Biblical passages in order to substantiate the principle, referring to [FONT=&quot]Numbers[/FONT] 14:34 in support of his interpretation of the three and a half days of Revelation 11:9[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot].[FONT=&quot][9][/FONT] Haymo and [FONT=&quot]Bruno Astensis[/FONT] "justify it by the parallel case of Ezekiel lying on his side 390 days, to signify 390 years ; — i. e. a day for a year. — ".[FONT=&quot][10][/FONT] Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle and it was also accepted by many Christian groups, ministers, and theologians.[FONT=&quot][11][/FONT][FONT=&quot][12][/FONT][FONT=&quot][13][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Others who expounded the Historicist interpretation are John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Phillip Melanchthon, Sir Isaac Newton, Jan Huss, John Foxe, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards,[FONT=&quot][14][/FONT] George Whitefield, Charles Finney, C. H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, E. B. Elliot, H. Grattan Guinness, and Bishop Thomas Newton as exponents of this school.[FONT=&quot][15][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-year_principle

[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Adam Clarke Commentary[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Until a time and times and the dividing of time.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, as in Daniel 9:24) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If we knew precisely when the papal power began to exert itself in the antichristian way, then we could at once fix the time of its destruction.[/FONT]

hint - 1798

[FONT=&quot]Jamieson Fausset Brown[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The 1260 years of papal misrule[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in the name of Christ may be represented by three and a half years of open Antichristianity and persecution before the millennium. Witnessing churches may be succeeded by witnessing individuals, the former occupying the longer, the latter the shorter period (Re 11:3). The beginning of the 1260 years is by E[/FONT][FONT=&quot]LLIOTT[/FONT][FONT=&quot] set at [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A.D.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 529[/FONT][FONT=&quot] or 533, when Justinian's edict acknowledged Pope John II to be head of the Church; by LUTHER, at 606, when Phocas confirmed Justinian's grant. But 752 is the most likely date, when the temporal dominion of the popes began by Pepin's grant to Stephen II (for Zachary, his predecessor's recognition of his title to France), confirmed by Charlemagne. For it was then first that the little horn plucked up three horns, and so became the prolongation of the fourth secular kingdom [NEWTON]. This would bring us down to about [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A.D.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2000, or the seventh thousand millenary from creation. But CLINTON makes about 1862 the seventh millenary, which may favor the dating from [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A.D.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 529.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Treasury of Scripture Knowledge[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a time[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That is, three years and a half, or, reckoning thirty days to a month, 1,260 days, equal to the same number of years in prophetic language; which, dated from the decree of Phocas constituting him the supreme head of the church, A.D. 606, terminated in 1866. [/FONT]

 

[DHK]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a time[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That is, three years and a half, or, reckoning thirty days to a month, 1,260 days, equal to the same number of years in prophetic language; which, dated from the decree of Phocas constituting him the supreme head of the church, A.D. 606, terminated in 1866. [/FONT]

Robertson Word Pictures

. Forty and two months (mênas tesserakonta kai duo). Accusative of extent of time. This period in Da 7:25; 12:7. It occurs in three forms in the Apocalypse (forty-two months, here and Re 13:5; 1260 days, Re 11:3; 12:6; time, times and half a time or 3 1/2 years, Re 12:14 and so in Daniel). This period, however its length may be construed, covers the duration of the triumph of the Gentiles, of the prophesying of the two witnesses, of the sojourn of the woman in the wilderness.

Wesley said:

The holy city - Jerusalem, Mt 4:5. So they began to do, before St. John wrote. And it has been trodden almost ever since by the Romans, Persians, Saracens, and Turks. But that severe kind of treading which is here peculiarly spoken of, will not be till under the trumpet of the seventh angel, and toward the end of the troublous times. This will continue but forty-two common months, or twelve hundred and sixty common days; being but a small part of the non-chronos.

Almost every modern or current scholar shares the same view. You are quoting the eschatology of an older generation of scholars which very few today agree with. I certainly don't. Those that you quoted hold no weight with me.
Did the Apostles Paul and John agree that they represented the Dark Ages? How much about the "Dark Ages" did John and Paul know about? Your view is absurd.

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Adam Clarke Commentary[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Until a time and times and the dividing of time.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, as in Daniel 9:24) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If we knew precisely when the papal power began to exert itself in the antichristian way, then we could at once fix the time of its destruction.[/FONT]

hint - 1798

[FONT=&quot]Jamieson Fausset Brown[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The 1260 years of papal misrule[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in the name of Christ may be represented by three and a half years of open Antichristianity and persecution before the millennium. Witnessing churches may be succeeded by witnessing individuals, the former occupying the longer, the latter the shorter period (Re 11:3). The beginning of the 1260 years is by E[/FONT][FONT=&quot]LLIOTT[/FONT][FONT=&quot] set at [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A.D.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 529[/FONT][FONT=&quot] or 533, when Justinian's edict acknowledged Pope John II to be head of the Church; by LUTHER, at 606, when Phocas confirmed Justinian's grant. But 752 is the most likely date, when the temporal dominion of the popes began by Pepin's grant to Stephen II (for Zachary, his predecessor's recognition of his title to France), confirmed by Charlemagne. For it was then first that the little horn plucked up three horns, and so became the prolongation of the fourth secular kingdom [NEWTON]. This would bring us down to about [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A.D.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2000, or the seventh thousand millenary from creation. But CLINTON makes about 1862 the seventh millenary, which may favor the dating from [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A.D.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 529.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Treasury of Scripture Knowledge[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a time[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That is, three years and a half, or, reckoning thirty days to a month, 1,260 days, equal to the same number of years in prophetic language; which, dated from the decree of Phocas constituting him the supreme head of the church, A.D. 606, terminated in 1866.


======================================

DHK quotes [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Robertson
[/FONT]. Forty and two months (mênas tesserakonta kai duo). Accusative of extent of time. This period in Da 7:25; 12:7. It occurs in three forms in the Apocalypse (forty-two months, here and Re 13:5; 1260 days, Re 11:3; 12:6; time, times and half a time or 3 1/2 years, Re 12:14 and so in Daniel).
=============================================

1. In that quote - they admit that the apocalyptic time of 3.5 years/42 months/1260 days are all the same unit of time being mentioned by 3 different names/terms in chapters 11, 12 and 13 of Revelation and also in Dan 7.

The quote goes on --

Robertson -
"This period, however its length may be construed, covers the duration of the triumph of the Gentiles, of the prophesying of the two witnesses, of the sojourn of the woman in the wilderness."

Indeed in Rev 12 the church is described as the woman who is persecuted following the ascension of Christ - and flees into the wilderness for the 1260 years of the dark ages.

That ends in 1798 when the Pope is taken captive.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

That ends in 1798 when the Pope is taken captive.

Bob

The Bible doesn't teach that. It is all pure speculation Bob. You have nothing but EGW and speculation. As I said these old time commentaries are not reliable in their eschatology. They were mostly amils. Some were post-mils. I would never use them to rely on my eschatological views, as I would not rely on you or EGW or Jim Jones, or Charles Russel. I put them all in the same category--false prophets. I put the RCC in the same category--totally messed up in eschatology and in salvation.
I mentioned to you that more current conservative commentaries are far more reliable when it comes to eschatological views. Here is one for you:

Dan.7:25ff.
Toward the end of the times, worldwide authority will be exercised by one called "a little horn" who will seek to prevent Christ's rule on the earth be destroying God's covenant people. His short reign of seven years (see 9:27) will be terminated by the Second Advent of Christ. At His Coming Christ will establish His millennial kingdom on earth in fulfilment of God's covenant with Israel.
The amillenarian view that the "little horn" has already appeared sometime in the past (but since Christ's First Advent) is wrong because:
a. no such ruler has attained worldwide status (7:23),
b. no no such ruler has subdued 3 of 10 kings who were ruling at once (vs.24),
c. no such ruler has persecuted Israel (vs.21) for 3 1/2 (vs.25), and
d. no such ruler has been destroyed forever (vs.26) by Christ's return.

Nor could this "little horn" be the Roman Catholic papacy because:
a. the "little horn" is a king, not a pope,
b. the papacy's power has not been limited to 3 1/2 years,
c. the papacy has not concentrated on persecuting the nation Israel, and,
d. the papacy has not been destroyed by the return of Christ to the earth.

This is from the "Bible Knowledge Commentary" by Walvoord and Zuck.
As I said, you will find far more accurate information in the more recent conservative commentaries.

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Adam Clarke Commentary[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Until a time and times and the dividing of time.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, as in Daniel 9:24) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If we knew precisely when the papal power began to exert itself in the antichristian way, then we could at once fix the time of its destruction.[/FONT]

hint - 1798

[FONT=&quot]Jamieson Fausset Brown[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The 1260 years of papal misrule[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in the name of Christ may be represented by three and a half years of open Antichristianity and persecution before the millennium. Witnessing churches may be succeeded by witnessing individuals, the former occupying the longer, the latter the shorter period (Re 11:3). The beginning of the 1260 years is by E[/FONT][FONT=&quot]LLIOTT[/FONT][FONT=&quot] set at [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A.D.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 529[/FONT][FONT=&quot] or 533, when Justinian's edict acknowledged Pope John II to be head of the Church; by LUTHER, at 606, when Phocas confirmed Justinian's grant. But 752 is the most likely date, when the temporal dominion of the popes began by Pepin's grant to Stephen II (for Zachary, his predecessor's recognition of his title to France), confirmed by Charlemagne. For it was then first that the little horn plucked up three horns, and so became the prolongation of the fourth secular kingdom [NEWTON]. This would bring us down to about [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A.D.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2000, or the seventh thousand millenary from creation. But CLINTON makes about 1862 the seventh millenary, which may favor the dating from [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A.D.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 529.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Treasury of Scripture Knowledge[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a time[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That is, three years and a half, or, reckoning thirty days to a month, 1,260 days, equal to the same number of years in prophetic language; which, dated from the decree of Phocas constituting him the supreme head of the church, A.D. 606, terminated in 1866.


======================================

DHK quotes

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Robertson
[/FONT]. Forty and two months (mênas tesserakonta kai duo). Accusative of extent of time. This period in Da 7:25; 12:7. It occurs in three forms in the Apocalypse (forty-two months, here and Re 13:5; 1260 days, Re 11:3; 12:6; time, times and half a time or 3 1/2 years, Re 12:14 and so in Daniel).
=============================================

1. In that quote - they admit that the apocalyptic time of 3.5 years/42 months/1260 days are all the same unit of time being mentioned by 3 different names/terms in chapters 11, 12 and 13 of Revelation and also in Dan 7.

The quote goes on --

Robertson -
"This period, however its length may be construed, covers the duration of the triumph of the Gentiles, of the prophesying of the two witnesses, of the sojourn of the woman in the wilderness."

Indeed in Rev 12 the church is described as the woman who is persecuted following the ascension of Christ - and flees into the wilderness for the 1260 years of the dark ages.

That ends in 1798 when the Pope is taken captive.

The Bible doesn't teach that. It is all pure speculation Bob.

Actually it does - because we all know that the Papacy arises out of the ten divisions of the Roman empire - we all know about the dark ages, and we all can see the 1260 years of dark ages work done by the Papacy in Dan 7 between the rise of the 11 horn power (the Papacy) and the 1798 end when the Pope is taken captive.

We can all see that during that time the Papacy was at war with the Bible and the saints.

And the same goes for the first coming of Christ and the 70 weeks (490 years) of Daniel 9. We can all see when the decree to rebuild Jerusalem took place 457 B.C. and we can all see that the baptism of Christ takes place in 27 A.D. 483 years later (because there is no year zero on a timeline). Christ is crucified "Messiah the Prince - cut off" in the middle of that last week of the 70 weeks (the last 7 years) and then 3.5 years later - Stephen is stoned and the probationary period for israel as a nation ends. The 490 year timeline of Dan 9 ends exactly as predicted with the crucifixion in the middle of that last week of years (the last 7 years of that 490 year timeline). The 70 years of Dan 9:1-5 end right on time and so also do the 70 weeks of years in Dan 9 end on time.

As I said these old time commentaries are not reliable in their eschatology.

err... umm ... because so many 'new things' have happened in the pagan Roman Empire and in the Papacy over the past 2000 years to discredit the orthodox Christian view of the Reformers??

turns out - that is not the case.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
turns out - that is not the case.

Bob

Here is the case Bob:
You failed to address the last post, but rather aimlessly copy and pasted (or spammed) a past post of yours. It was needless; unnecessary.
Here is what you need to address, if you have both the intestinal fortitude and the intelligence to do so:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2062620&postcount=115

 

[BobRyan]

Here is the case Bob:
You failed to address the last post, but rather aimlessly copy and pasted

I included both Bible details from Dan 7 and references from orthodox Protestant reformers and well accepted non-SDA Bible scholarship all of which admit to the 1260 years as a day for year principle and even two of OldRegular's sources agree that this is the Papacy.

So much for "aimless copy".

-----------------

But if you want know why your idea of spinning the 1260 years of Dan 7 away from the Papacy does not work. Well here it is -

Dan.7:25ff.

b. no no such ruler has subdued 3 of 10 kings who were ruling at once (vs.24),
c. no such ruler has persecuted Israel (vs.21) for 3 1/2 (vs.25), and
d. no such ruler has been destroyed forever (vs.26) by Christ's return.

Nor could this "little horn" be the Roman Catholic papacy because:
a. the "little horn" is a king, not a pope,
b. the papacy's power has not been limited to 3 1/2 years,
c. the papacy has not concentrated on persecuting the nation Israel, and,
d. the papacy has not been destroyed by the return of Christ to the earth.

The 11th horn is not a an "11th king' in Dan 7.

The Kings are not individual kings even for the 10 horns, the ten divisions of Rome - because it divides into 10 kingdoms - not merely 10 individual kings. The Holy Roman Empire was not only ruled by Kings and an Emperor but was also under the thumb of the Papacy. All historians admit to this "detail".

Daniel 7 does not say that at the end of 1260 years the 11th horn is destroyed. Rather it says that when the judgment of Dan 7:9-10 is complete and "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" vs22 - the 11th horn is destroyed.

There is no 3.5 years in Dan 7 nor 1.3 years (70 weeks) in Daniel 9 because this is apocalyptic prophecy. These are prophetic days as all the scholars, Protestant Reformers etc in the list I provided have attested.

So 1260 years in Dan 7 do correspond to the reign of the Papacy and the dark ages. Impossible to ignore that historic detail.

Nothing in the text says that only Israel is persecuted. In fact as all Bible scholars admit the 4th beast is Pagan Rome that divides long after Israel ceases to be a nation.

These are just the obvious facts that pretty much all historians and Bible scholars admit to. Which means that trying to wrench the entire post-pagan-roman-empire scenario into "What happened to the nation of Israel after the fall of Rome" cannot be shoehorned into the chapter.

It is about "the saints" being persecuted after the fall of Pagan Rome.

And I am not Amillennial - And this view of Dan 7 has nothing to do with that idea.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

I included both Bible details from Dan 7 and references from orthodox Protestant reformers and well accepted non-SDA Bible scholarship all of which admit to the 1260 years as a day for year principle and even two of OldRegular's sources agree that this is the Papacy.

When did the Reformers teach? Their ideas about eschatology are a bit out-dated. Hundreds of years have passed since then. Furthermore I don't agree with their eschatology. You might as well quote from Charles Taze Russel's eschatology. It holds as much weight. They may be good in some areas, but not in the area of eschatology.

But if you want know why your idea of spinning the 1260 years of Dan 7 away from the Papacy does not work. Well here it is -

The 11th horn is not a an "11th king' in Dan 7.

The Kings are not individual kings even for the 10 horns, the ten divisions of Rome - because it divides into 10 kingdoms - not merely 10 individual kings. The Holy Roman Empire was not only ruled by Kings and an Emperor but was also under the thumb of the Papacy. All historians admit to this "detail".

No they don't.

Daniel 7 does not say that at the end of 1260 years the 11th horn is destroyed. Rather it says that when the judgment of Dan 7:9-10 is complete and "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" vs22 - the 11th horn is destroyed.

Daniel doesn't mention 1260 years. Your interpretation is wrong.

There is no 3.5 years in Dan 7 nor 1.3 years (70 weeks) in Daniel 9 because this is apocalyptic prophecy. These are prophetic days as all the scholars, Protestant Reformers etc in the list I provided have attested.

First, I am not a Protestant.
Second, 1260 days is exactly 3.5 years. Do your calculations.
Third, one week is seven. It could be 7 days, months or years. Here it is years. One week of years is the length of the Tribulation Period.

So 1260 years in Dan 7 do correspond to the reign of the Papacy and the dark ages. Impossible to ignore that historic detail.

A far-fetched interpretation based on past history.
I have read books where people thought that Hitler was the Anti-Christ,
or that Mussolini was the Anti-Christ,
or that Saddam Hussein during the Gulf War could have been the Anti-Christ,
or that Osama Ben Laden could have been the Anti-Christ during the destruction of the WTC, etc.
It goes to show that during times of crisis people are prone to blame someone for the evil in the world and continue to look for the Coming of Christ (as they should). History continues to progress. We are not stuck in the Dark Ages as you are

Nothing in the text says that only Israel is persecuted. In fact as all Bible scholars admit the 4th beast is Pagan Rome that divides long after Israel ceases to be a nation.

It was not the papacy that persecuted Israel; it was not the Pope. Your theory does not work. Hitler persecuted the Jews. Titus destroyed the Temple, but he was not the pope. You must look to other Scripture like Revelation 12.

These are just the obvious facts that pretty much all historians and Bible scholars admit to. Which means that trying to wrench the entire post-pagan-roman-empire scenario into "What happened to the nation of Israel after the fall of Rome" cannot be shoehorned into the chapter.

They were scattered and dispersed on account of the destruction of the Temple. It had nothing to do with the RCC!! Your interpretation is a fantasy. It is not factual at all. All historians do not agree with you.

It is about "the saints" being persecuted after the fall of Pagan Rome.

What saints? You don't know what you are talking about, and can't verify it or harmonize it with Scripture.

And I am not Amillennial - And this view of Dan 7 has nothing to do with that idea.

Then why are you supporting your views with Amillennial Protestant scholars? That is incongruent isn't it?

 

[BobRyan]

When did the Reformers teach? Their ideas about eschatology are a bit out-dated. Hundreds of years have passed since then. Furthermore I don't agree with their eschatology. You might as well quote from Charles Taze Russel's eschatology.

For "some" the benefits of the insights gained during protestant reformation - is mostly "lost".

First, I am not a Protestant.

It shows.


But for the rest of us..

Your confusion about the 1260 years and the dark ages is more apparent than your wild idea that we are in for another 1000 years of the dark ages persecution of the saints.

However many readers here will be glad to know - that the confusion that DHK has on this topic is not shared by everyone.


[FONT=&quot]Day Year – and Methodists. Adam Clarke etc.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Methodists[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Adam Clarke[/FONT]'s commentary published in 1831 supports the interpretation that the little horn is Papal Rome by this comment "Among Protestant writers this is considered to be the popedom."[FONT=&quot][15][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He stated that the 1260-year period should commence in 755, the year [FONT=&quot]Pepin the Short[/FONT] actually invaded Lombard territory, resulting in the Pope's elevation from a subject of the [FONT=&quot]Byzantine Empire[/FONT] to an independent [FONT=&quot]head of state[/FONT].[FONT=&quot][16][/FONT] The [FONT=&quot]Donation of Pepin[/FONT], which first occurred in 754 and again in 756 gave to the Pope [FONT=&quot]temporal power[/FONT] of the [FONT=&quot]Papal States[/FONT]. His time line, which began in 755 will end in 2015. But his introductory comments on Daniel 7 added 756 as an alternative commencement date [FONT=&quot][17][/FONT] Based on this, commentators anticipate the end of the Papacy in 2016:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“As the date of the prevalence and reign of antichrist must, according to the principles here laid down, be fixed at A.D. 756, therefore the end of this period of his reign must be A.D. 756 added to 1260; equal to 2016, the year of the Christian era set by infinite wisdom for this long-prayed-for event. Amen and amen!" [FONT=&quot][18][/FONT][FONT=&quot][19][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]History[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This view was recognized by the Jews[FONT=&quot][5][/FONT] as seen in Daniel 9:24-27, and as seen in Jesus' use of the day-year principle in Luke 13 verses 31-33, and in the early church.[FONT=&quot][6][/FONT] The day-year principle was first used in Christian exposition in 380 [FONT=&quot]AD[/FONT] by [FONT=&quot]Tychonius[/FONT], who interpreted the three and a half days of [FONT=&quot]Revelation[/FONT] 11:9 as three and a half years, writing 'three days and a half; that is, three years and six months' ('dies tres et dimidium; id est annos tres et menses sex').[FONT=&quot][7][/FONT] In the 5th century [FONT=&quot]Faustus of Riez[/FONT] gave the same interpretation of Revelation 11:9, writing 'three and a half days which correspond to three years and six months' ('Tres et dimidius dies tribus annis et sex mensibus respondent),[FONT=&quot][8][/FONT] and in c. 550 [FONT=&quot]Primasius[/FONT] also gave the same interpretation, writing 'it is possible to understand the three days and a half as three years and six months' ('Tres dies et dimidium possumus intelligere tres annos et sex menses').[FONT=&quot][8][/FONT] The same interpretation of [FONT=&quot]Revelation[/FONT] 11:9 was given by the later Christian expositors [FONT=&quot]Bede[/FONT] (730 AD), as well as [FONT=&quot]Anspert[/FONT], [FONT=&quot]Arethas[/FONT], [FONT=&quot]Haymo[/FONT][[FONT=&quot]disambiguation needed[/FONT]], and [FONT=&quot]Berengaud[/FONT] (all of the ninth century).[FONT=&quot][8][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Primasius[/FONT] appears to have been the first to appeal directly to previous Biblical passages in order to substantiate the principle, referring to [FONT=&quot]Numbers[/FONT] 14:34 in support of his interpretation of the three and a half days of Revelation 11:9[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot].[FONT=&quot][9][/FONT] Haymo and [FONT=&quot]Bruno Astensis[/FONT] "justify it by the parallel case of Ezekiel lying on his side 390 days, to signify 390 years ; — i. e. a day for a year. — ".[FONT=&quot][10][/FONT] Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle and it was also accepted by many Christian groups, ministers, and theologians.[FONT=&quot][11][/FONT][FONT=&quot][12][/FONT][FONT=&quot][13][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Others who expounded the Historicist interpretation are John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Phillip Melanchthon, Sir Isaac Newton, Jan Huss, John Foxe, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards,[FONT=&quot][14][/FONT] George Whitefield, Charles Finney, C. H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, E. B. Elliot, H. Grattan Guinness, and Bishop Thomas Newton as exponents of this school.[FONT=&quot][15][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-year_principle[/FONT]

in Christ,

Bob