The Heresy of Investigative Judgment

[OldRegular]

According to the OP:


So Bob, do you agree with these statements? Christ did NOT make atonement when He poured out His blood on the cross? Even tho He Himself said "IT IS FINISHED"? Is that correct?

Ellen White claimed that the sanctuary had to be cleansed of sin. God's throne room in heaven has NO sin to be cleansed of!

The burden on proof is on you! You must show scripture in which ANY of this is taught.

Sola Scriptura!

You make two very valid points Amy and there is no Biblical answer Ryan can give. That is the reason SDA must be classified as a cult!

 

[BobRyan]

According to the OP:


So Bob, do you agree with these statements? Christ did NOT make atonement when He poured out His blood on the cross?

Prefer the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

in Is 53:10 Christ is our sin offering.

in 1John 2:2 "Christ is the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" NIV - and that "atoning sacrifice" was completed once for all at the cross.

But to fully understand the Bible statement on Atonement - one has to pay attention to a "lot of Bible details".

I think we all know that by now.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Since the process of ignoring Bible details could resume again at any moment --- a reminder of the "Details" in Daniel 7 concerning the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment. (Which of course is the subject and title of the thread)




==============================


The pre-advent Investigative Judgment in heaven - is shown in Daniel 7

Investigative: as in -- it is a judgement based on data/evidence contained in books of record. "the court sat and the books were opened" - this is highlighted in my quote

Pre-Advent: It is shown in the chapter to take place after the Roman Empire falls, after the 1260 years dark ages of persecution of the saints that follows the fall of Pagan Rome at some point - but before the 2nd coming of Christ and the setting up of Christ's Kingdom.

It is also shown in the text - to include the saints as subjects of the judgment for "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". also highlighted in the text - in the quote.

Hence my repeated appeal to "Bible details".

The Bible vacuous responses related to this Daniel 7 subject are not at all surprising for a Dark Ages style response to "inconvenient Bible details".

But why resort to the harrumph, pulpit-pounding vitriol and ad populum of the dark ages in this the 21st century? One might have presumed that those tactics died out centuries ago.

The most consistent complaint here and on a few other threads -- is that I insist we look at the actual Bible details that speak to the subject of the thread. I will gladly take that one.


So here is Daniel 7 for those who prefer - the actual Bible.

========================

I will post the text "again" because it appears that the instict to "Bible-avoidance" by those who oppose this topic is a hard habit break.

====================================


The pre-advent Judgment of Dan 7 - based on

investigating the records/books of heaven.

Dan 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

...

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
...
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

==========================

And so far where is the careful Bible student's response to "the Bible details" in the text above???? ....crickets...crickets...crickets...

How "instructive" for the objective unbiased reader.

Of course - I "know" there are in fact some posters "out there" that are known for their more "Bible attentive" response to challenging Bible chapters -- not saying they don't exist.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

Prefer the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

in Is 53:10 Christ is our sin offering.

in 1John 2:2 "Christ is the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" NIV - and that "atoning sacrifice" was completed once for all at the cross.

But to fully understand the Bible statement on Atonement - one has to pay attention to a "lot of Bible details".

I think we all know that by now.

in Christ,

Bob

You completely ignored my questions and my entire post.

You are apparently unable to have a 2 way discussion on a doctrine of your own church, which is the subject of this thread.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok - so I thought you were asking about the Atonement at the cross.

Were you talking about "something else"??

Because... details matter. And I hope we can both agree on that.

In my post I point to statements actually made "in the Bible" on this subject - and I am sure you would not want to turn a blind eye to the "Bible details" just as I would not want to do it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

Ok - so I thought you were asking about the Atonement at the cross.

Were you talking about "something else"??

Because... details matter.

Yes, details matter. Like the details of your beliefs according to SDA and Ellen White. I'll repeat my post since you weren't sure of what I was talking about.

According to the OP:


So Bob, do you agree with these statements? Christ did NOT make atonement when He poured out His blood on the cross? Even tho He Himself said "IT IS FINISHED"? Is that correct?

Ellen White claimed that the sanctuary had to be cleansed of sin. God's throne room in heaven has NO sin to be cleansed of!

The burden on proof is on you! You must show scripture in which ANY of this is taught.

Sola Scriptura!

Want to try again?

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with this statement --

===========================

I Prefer the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

in Is 53:10 Christ is our sin offering.

in 1John 2:2 "Christ is the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" NIV - and that "atoning sacrifice" was completed once for all at the cross.

But to fully understand the Bible statement on Atonement - one has to pay attention to a "lot of Bible details".

I think we all know that by now.

===================================

And I agree that Daniel 7 describes the "Pre-Advent" Investigative Judgment as we can all see in the "Bible details".

And I agree that Lev 16 describes the full Bible scope of Atonement when it defines for us the "Day of Atonement" with Christ as both sin offering and as High Priest.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

I agree with this statement --

===========================

I Prefer the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

in Is 53:10 Christ is our sin offering.

in 1John 2:2 "Christ is the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" NIV - and that "atoning sacrifice" was completed once for all at the cross.

But to fully understand the Bible statement on Atonement - one has to pay attention to a "lot of Bible details".

I think we all know that by now.

===================================

And I agree that Daniel 7 describes the "Pre-Advent" Investigative Judgment as we can all see in the "Bible details".

And I agree that Lev 16 describes the full Bible scope of Atonement when it defines for us the "Day of Atonement" with Christ as both sin offering and as High Priest.

in Christ,

Bob

The subject of this thread is the SDA doctrine of Investigative Judgment. Can you address the questions I asked or not?

 

[evangelist-7]

The Biblicist got kicked off for I don't know why.
This guy blasphemes God and insults everyone except Ryan and nothing happens! Why!

You have NO idea what blaspheming God is all about.

IMO, the Bibliotechster just chooses to leave periodically.

When Roberto finally has had enough, will you say he also got kicked off?
.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The subject of this thread is the SDA doctrine of Investigative Judgment. Can you address the questions I asked or not?

Probably not. That's why he posted as he did. :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

"The problem" with avoiding all the Bible details in the answers I give to the questions regarding the Seventh-day Adventist acceptance of Daniel 7 and the Investigative Judgment - is that you "miss all the answers" I am giving.

Then inexplicably you can post that - you see no answers - since you are carefully avoiding those answers (presumably because they include the text of Daniel 7).

Here they are "again" --

=====================================

The pre-advent Investigative Judgment in heaven - is shown in Daniel 7 (AND is accepted by the Seventh-day Adventist Church).

Investigative: as in -- it is a judgement based on data/evidence contained in books of record. "the court sat and the books were opened" - this is highlighted in my quote

Pre-Advent: It is shown in the chapter to take place after the Roman Empire falls, after the 1260 years dark ages of persecution of the saints that follows the fall of Pagan Rome at some point - but before the 2nd coming of Christ and the setting up of Christ's Kingdom.

It is also shown in the text - to include the saints as subjects of the judgment for "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". also highlighted in the text - in the quote.

Hence my repeated appeal to "Bible details".

Daniel 7 for those who prefer - the actual Bible.

========================

I will post the text "again" because it appears that the instict to "Bible-avoidance" by those who oppose this topic is a hard habit break.

====================================


The pre-advent Judgment of Dan 7 - based on

investigating the records/books of heaven.

Dan 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

...

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
...
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

==========================
(As already posted a few times by now) --

Responses to the actual answers given -- welcomed since this one is from "page 1".

In fact anyone with an actual Bible statement to make about the answers posted on Pages 1 and 2 -- I extend a welcome to you.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

wrong thread - post moved

 

[Amy.G]

(As already posted a few times by now) --

What is wrong with you? I have tried to engage you in a discussion but all you do is post the exact same scripture repeatedly with no explanation and a refusal to answer a simple question.

There can be no discussion with you. Dusting my feet now.

 

[BobRyan]

What is wrong with you? I have tried to engage you in a discussion

You engaged me by asking me if in fact I hold to the Seventh-day Adventist pre-advent Investigative judgment teaching and where it is found.

I point out that I have been answering that question non-stop and showing among other places - where it is found in Daniel 7AND I INClUDE THE EXPLINATION of where the teaching is found IN THE TEXT with that post.

Inexplicably you respond with

but all you do is post the exact same scripture repeatedl
with no explanation

I will post it again - and I will color, highlight, underline the explanation already in the post.

So anyone who remains - can see it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"The problem" with avoiding all the Bible details in the answers I give to the questions regarding the Seventh-day Adventist acceptance of Daniel 7 and the Investigative Judgment - is that you "miss all the answers" I am giving.

Then inexplicably you can post that - you see no answers - since you are carefully avoiding those answers (presumably because they include the text of Daniel 7).

Here they are "again" --

=====================================

The pre-advent Investigative Judgment in heaven - is shown in Daniel 7 (AND is accepted by the Seventh-day Adventist Church).

Investigative: as in -- it is a judgement based on data/evidence contained in books of record. "the court sat and the books were opened" - this is highlighted in my quote

Pre-Advent: It is shown in the chapter to take place after the Roman Empire falls, after the 1260 years dark ages of persecution of the saints that follows the fall of Pagan Rome at some point - but before the 2nd coming of Christ and the setting up of Christ's Kingdom.

It is also shown in the text - to include the saints as subjects of the judgment for "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". also highlighted in the text - in the quote.

Hence my repeated appeal to "Bible details".

Daniel 7 for those who prefer - the actual Bible.

========================

I will post the text "again" because it appears that the instict to "Bible-avoidance" by those who oppose this topic is a hard habit break.

====================================


The pre-advent Judgment of Dan 7 - based on

investigating the records/books of heaven.

Dan 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

...

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
...
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

==========================
(As already posted a few times by now) --

Responses to the actual answers given -- welcomed since this one is from "page 1".

In fact anyone with an actual Bible statement to make about the answers posted on Pages 1 and 2 -- I extend a welcome to you.

If one had an actual question about one of the higlighted, color-coded, underlined, bolded sections - please feel free to ask about it.

But if you simply don't want to read the chapter or the explanation pointing to details in the actual chapter - that is fine too. Perhaps you will find some other topic interesting enough to read the answers posted for the various points of view.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[saturneptune]

The pre-advent Investigative Judgment in heaven - is shown in Daniel 7

Investigative: as in -- it is a judgement based on data/evidence contained in books of record. "the court sat and the books were opened" - this is highlighted in my quote

Pre-Advent: It is shown in the chapter to take place after the Roman Empire falls, after the 1260 years dark ages of persecution of the saints that follows the fall of Pagan Rome at some point - but before the 2nd coming of Christ and the setting up of Christ's Kingdom.

It is also shown in the text - to include the saints as subjects of the judgment for "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". also highlighted in the text - in the quote.

Hence my repeated appeal to "Bible details".

in Christ,

Bob

The best thing you could do with your theological explanations is start the paragraph with "once upon a time" and at the end of the posting put "and they lived happily ever after."

 

[BobRyan]

I quoted Daniel 7 again - probably looks like pretty strange text to someone not accustomed to paying attention to Bible details as I think you are pointing out with our "once upon a time" preface suggestion for the chapter being posted.

In any case - for those who are Bible students - the point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

I quoted Daniel 7 again - probably looks like pretty strange text to someone not accustomed to paying attention to Bible details as I think you are pointing out with our "once upon a time" preface suggestion for the chapter being posted.

In any case - for those who are Bible students - the point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

Just so I am sure I am following this correctly, are you telling us that Ellen White's Investigative Judgment writings are the exact same message as Dan 7 writes??

 

[OldRegular]

Just so I am sure I am following this correctly, are you telling us that Ellen White's Investigative Judgment writings are the exact same message as Dan 7 writes??

If they don't they supersede what God revealed in the mind of some SDA! Very sad!

 

[BobRyan]

Just so I am sure I am following this correctly, are you telling us that Ellen White's

What part of my quote mentioned/or/quoted Ellen White?

Did I miss something in my own post??

Or were you thinking that Ellen White wrote Daniel 7?

The Seventh-day Adventist church preaches the pre-advent Investigative Judgment doctrine found in Daniel 7 (among other Bible texts).

In Daniel 7 we notice some "Bible details". I will list them again because these are key to the Adventist doctrine by that name.


=====================================

The pre-advent Investigative Judgment in heaven - is shown in Daniel 7 (AND is accepted by the Seventh-day Adventist Church).

Investigative: as in -- it is a judgement based on data/evidence contained in books of record. "the court sat and the books were opened" - this is highlighted in my quote of Daniel 7.

Pre-Advent: It is shown in the chapter to take place after the Roman Empire falls, after the 1260 years dark ages of persecution of the saints that follows the fall of Pagan Rome at some point - but before the 2nd coming of Christ and the setting up of Christ's Kingdom.

It is also shown in the text - to include the saints as subjects of the judgment for "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". also highlighted in the text - in the quote of Daniel 7.

Turns out that avoiding these "Bible details" in Daniel 7 is not the grand solution some people have imagined.

in Christ,

Bob