The Heresy of Investigative Judgment

[BobRyan]

The pre-advent Investigative Judgment in heaven - is shown in Daniel 7 (AND is accepted by the Seventh-day Adventist Church).

Investigative: as in -- it is a judgement based on data/evidence contained in books of record. "the court sat and the books were opened" - this is highlighted in my quote

Pre-Advent: It is shown in the chapter to take place after the Roman Empire falls, after the 1260 years dark ages of persecution of the saints that follows the fall of Pagan Rome at some point - but before the 2nd coming of Christ and the setting up of Christ's Kingdom.

It is also shown in the text - to include the saints as subjects of the judgment for "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". also highlighted in the text - in the quote.

Hence my repeated appeal to "Bible details".

Daniel 7 for those who prefer - the actual Bible.

========================

I will post the text "again" because it appears that the instict to "Bible-avoidance" by those who oppose this topic is a hard habit break.

====================================


The pre-advent Judgment of Dan 7 - based on

investigating the records/books of heaven.

Dan 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

...

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
...
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

==========================

The best thing you could do with your theological explanations is start the paragraph with "once upon a time"

The "Bible avoidance" solution you are using for Daniel 7 - has you insisting that we insert something like "once upon a time" before the information that I posted above.... At least this statement of yours is in direct response to that quote above.

How sad.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[OldRegular]

The Gospel of the Investigative Judgment

Here we have it folks. Scripture gives us the Gospel of Jesus Christ, beameup gives us the false gospel of Paul, and SDA gives us the false gospel of Investigative Judgment. Ryan has posted certain passages from Daniel numerous times, generally without comment but since he will not comment on Scripture according to God perhaps he will comment on the following remarks by Adventist scholars?? who concede that Scripture does not really support Investigative Judgment. But of course a disciple of Ellen White is willing to try one more time and give SDA's another book to replace the Bible The Silencing of Satan: The Gospel of the Investigative Judgment.

Here is why, Seventh-day Adventists should read The Silencing of Satan: The Gospel of the Investigative Judgment, and here is why Christian's who are not Seventh-day Adventists should read this book:

From the beginning Adventists have been on the right track with their investigative judgment doctrine. Yet, beginning early on, the investigative judgment doctrine has had a rough ride. In the past few decades its troubles became greater. With many it has fallen out of favor. Non-Adventist critics have multiplied. Yet, as seen in the first chapter there is plenty of evidence to show that the investigative judgment is true at its most fundamentally important level: According to Scripture, God investigates believers.

It is surprising but true that the investigative judgment is more biblically sound than the Adventist pioneers reasoned. How can such a statement be defended? In 1980, in his book, God and His Sanctuary, the late Dr. C. Mervyn Maxwell, while defending Adventism's investigative judgment doctrine, stated, "Although the terms are not used in the Bible, for convenience we can speak of phases of the final judgment that deal with 'investigation, . . . examination . . ." (88).

In 1993, in his book, The Sanctuary, Roy Adams indicates his agreement that there are no Scriptures that clearly teach that the judgment is investigative in nature. Adams wrote, "It has not always been easy to provide a straightforward demonstration of the particular notion of an investigative judgment in Scripture." (125) He also stated, "We venture to suggest that 'investigative' is not absolutely indispensable" .

Adams suggested that there had been an unwise waste of a "vast amount of time and energy expended in years of controversy and debate over the use of the expression 'investigative judgment'" (124). So, Adams saw new terminology as a solution to this problem. He writes, "The expression 'pre-Advent' . . . is currently finding growing acceptance" (124).

These two good men, loyal Adventist scholars, virtually concluded that there is not one Bible passage stating, in language that cannot be misunderstood, that God investigates believers. If any Seventh-day Adventist pioneer, or if later Adventist theologians, wrote about the investigative judgment using such a passage(s) of Scripture, Dr. C. Mervin Maxwell, whose specialty was the study of the development of Seventh-day Adventist theology, would have known it. And, he would not have stated that the term "investigate" was a term of convenience. Instead he would have used such evidence to defend the investigative judgment doctrine in 1980.

Adventist pioneers did not notice the evidence considered in this book–evidence that makes the investigative judgment more true than they knew. And, more true than our critics give credit. The following comment by a former Seventh-day Adventist minister suggests that our investigative judgment doctrine may be more true than today’s Adventist ministry realizes:

"Brad, I finished your book [first edition]. Obviously because I studied theology at both La Sierra and Andrews, I am well aware of the arguments for the Investigative Judgment. In The Silencing of Satan however, you plowed new creative ground. I found especially enlightening the first chapters where you show that although the exact word 'investigate' is not used in modern translations, there is plenty of evidence in the Greek and Hebrew that shows that many texts in both the New & Old Testaments could be translated using the word 'investigate.' This is new work that I have seen no where else." Rick Kuykendall

It seems obvious then, that it is worth our while to pursue further where this new evidence leads. What does it say about our understanding of the Gospel and how it should be presented? How does it fit with the traditional view of the investigative judgment and the last days? It was to answer these questions that the book, The Silencing of Satan: The Gospel of the Investigative Judgment, was written.
http://investigativejudgmentgospel.org

 

[steaver]

What part of my quote mentioned/or/quoted Ellen White?

Did I miss something in my own post??


in Christ,

Bob

Maybe you missed the topic of the OP? So why can't you answer a simple question about the OP's EGW's Investigative Judgment? You brought Daniel into this, so answer the question?

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe you missed the topic of the OP?

The ranting from a few non-SDA posters on page one is primarily about the denomination and the doctrine that goes by the name in the title of the thread - the pre-advent "Investigative Judgment".

When I point to the pre-advent Investigative Judgment actually in Daniel 7 - we see "more bible avoidance! more bible avoidance" appeals from those who object to the doctrine.

It seems that the more I compare the doctrine to the "sola scriptura" evidence in Daniel 7 -- the less the "Bible avoidance" group enjoys it -- and the more they complain about my bringing up the Bible source for this doctrine.

surprising? - or is it now "the pattern"??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[OldRegular]

The false gospel of Investigative Judgment

The ranting from a few non-SDA posters on page one is primarily about the denomination and the doctrine that goes by the name in the title of the thread - the pre-advent "Investigative Judgment".

When I point to the pre-advent Investigative Judgment actually in Daniel 7 - we see "more bible avoidance! more bible avoidance" appeals from those who object to the doctrine.

It seems that the more I compare the doctrine to the "sola scriptura" evidence in Daniel 7 -- the less the "Bible avoidance" group enjoys it -- and the more they complain about my bringing up the Bible source for this doctrine.

surprising? - or is it now "the pattern"??

in Christ,

Bob

I am going to take a page out of Ryan's book. Copy and paste your own posts. That being said it is significant when leaders of a group refute the teachings of a group. The remarks by SDA leaders regarding Investigative Judgment is sort of like the Roman Catholic College of Cardinals declaring the papacy heretical.

What is really sad:tear: is that Ryan repeatedly posts passage of Scripture that say nothing about Investigative Judgment and then complains:type: because no one takes the time to refute what is not taught!:laugh::laugh:

Here we have it folks. Scripture gives us the Gospel of Jesus Christ, beameup gives us the false gospel of Paul, and SDA gives us the false gospel of Investigative Judgment. Ryan has posted certain passages from Daniel numerous times, generally without comment but since he will not comment on Scripture according to God perhaps he will comment on the following remarks by Adventist scholars?? who concede that Scripture does not really support Investigative Judgment. But of course a disciple of Ellen White is willing to try one more time and give SDA's another book to replace the Bible The Silencing of Satan: The Gospel of the Investigative Judgment.

Here is why, Seventh-day Adventists should read The Silencing of Satan: The Gospel of the Investigative Judgment, and here is why Christian's who are not Seventh-day Adventists should read this book:

From the beginning Adventists have been on the right track with their investigative judgment doctrine. Yet, beginning early on, the investigative judgment doctrine has had a rough ride. In the past few decades its troubles became greater. With many it has fallen out of favor. Non-Adventist critics have multiplied. Yet, as seen in the first chapter there is plenty of evidence to show that the investigative judgment is true at its most fundamentally important level: According to Scripture, God investigates believers.

It is surprising but true that the investigative judgment is more biblically sound than the Adventist pioneers reasoned. How can such a statement be defended? In 1980, in his book, God and His Sanctuary, the late Dr. C. Mervyn Maxwell, while defending Adventism's investigative judgment doctrine, stated, "Although the terms are not used in the Bible, for convenience we can speak of phases of the final judgment that deal with 'investigation, . . . examination . . ." (88).

In 1993, in his book, The Sanctuary, Roy Adams indicates his agreement that there are no Scriptures that clearly teach that the judgment is investigative in nature. Adams wrote, "It has not always been easy to provide a straightforward demonstration of the particular notion of an investigative judgment in Scripture." (125) He also stated, "We venture to suggest that 'investigative' is not absolutely indispensable" .

Adams suggested that there had been an unwise waste of a "vast amount of time and energy expended in years of controversy and debate over the use of the expression 'investigative judgment'" (124). So, Adams saw new terminology as a solution to this problem. He writes, "The expression 'pre-Advent' . . . is currently finding growing acceptance" (124).

These two good men, loyal Adventist scholars, virtually concluded that there is not one Bible passage stating, in language that cannot be misunderstood, that God investigates believers. If any Seventh-day Adventist pioneer, or if later Adventist theologians, wrote about the investigative judgment using such a passage(s) of Scripture, Dr. C. Mervin Maxwell, whose specialty was the study of the development of Seventh-day Adventist theology, would have known it. And, he would not have stated that the term "investigate" was a term of convenience. Instead he would have used such evidence to defend the investigative judgment doctrine in 1980.

Adventist pioneers did not notice the evidence considered in this book–evidence that makes the investigative judgment more true than they knew. And, more true than our critics give credit. The following comment by a former Seventh-day Adventist minister suggests that our investigative judgment doctrine may be more true than today’s Adventist ministry realizes:

"Brad, I finished your book [first edition]. Obviously because I studied theology at both La Sierra and Andrews, I am well aware of the arguments for the Investigative Judgment. In The Silencing of Satan however, you plowed new creative ground. I found especially enlightening the first chapters where you show that although the exact word 'investigate' is not used in modern translations, there is plenty of evidence in the Greek and Hebrew that shows that many texts in both the New & Old Testaments could be translated using the word 'investigate.' This is new work that I have seen no where else." Rick Kuykendall

It seems obvious then, that it is worth our while to pursue further where this new evidence leads. What does it say about our understanding of the Gospel and how it should be presented? How does it fit with the traditional view of the investigative judgment and the last days? It was to answer these questions that the book, The Silencing of Satan: The Gospel of the Investigative Judgment, was written.
http://investigativejudgmentgospel.org

 

[BobRyan]

I am going to take a page out of Ryan's book. Copy and paste your own posts.

Yes copy and paste your Bible texts that are on topic explaining the answers to the core question in the title of the thread just as I keep doing in thread after thread.

Please do that all day long just as I do as I wait for some of our Bible-avoidance-at-all-costs friends to respond to the evidence given "in the text".

See that is the funny thing about claiming to test doctrine "sola scriptura" -- you have to agree to actually look at the scriptura texts upon which a given doctrine is based to see if it holds up.

All the harrumph! and pulpit pounding in the world cannot erase that glaringly obvious "detail".

Not sure why so many here find this to be such a difficult concept - but if you will join me in actual posting Bible texts specific to the doctrine being discussed - that would be a welcome change.

(I feel like I have gone to one of the Catholic boards because that is the only place outside of this thread and 1 or two others that I have seen such fear of the Bible for testing a given doctrine "sola scriptura". And even they would be hard pressed to top the members of this thread so determined to ignore Daniel 7 and the "Investigative Judgment" that we find there. How sad).

======================

Sine our "Bible-avoidance" friends may "prefer" that I repost something of mine that is NOT the Bible ... try this.

"It seems that the more I compare the doctrine to the "sola scriptura" evidence in Daniel 7 -- the less the "Bible avoidance" group enjoys it -- and the more they complain about my bringing up the Bible source for this doctrine.

surprising? - or is it now "the pattern"??"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[OldRegular]

Yes copy and paste your Bible texts that are on topic explaining the answers to the core question in the title of the thread just as I keep doing in thread after thread.

Please do that all day long just as I do as I wait for some of our Bible-avoidance-at-all-costs friends to respond to the evidence given "in the text".

See that is the funny thing about claiming to test doctrine "sola scriptura" -- you have to agree to actually look at the scriptura texts upon which a given doctrine is based to see if it holds up.

All the harrumph! and pulpit pounding in the world cannot erase that glaringly obvious "detail".

Not sure why so many here find this to be such a difficult concept - but if you will join me in actual posting Bible texts specific to the doctrine being discussed - that would be a welcome change.

(I feel like I have gone to one of the Catholic boards because that is the only place outside of this thread and 1 or two others that I have seen such fear of the Bible for testing a given doctrine "sola scriptura". And even they would be hard pressed to top this thread).

in Christ,

Bob

It is devastating when leaders of a cult confess that there is no, that is zero, Scriptural support for their heretical dogma. But it is encouraging when cult members do face up to the truth of the Bible.

I can understand how it would be devastating for someone like Bob Ryan to learn that Investigative Judgement is a heretical, cultic con. This admission by SDA leaders, that there is zero Scriptural support for Investigative Judgment, is somewhat like the Roman Catholic College of Cardinals declaring the papacy heretical. Think how all those folks depending on the Pope for absolution would feel.

Cheer up Ryan, be thankful, these people have taken a monkey off your back!

 

[kyredneck]

Just been hitting the highpoints so far, but this has been an interesting and informative thread OR, thanks for shedding some light on the SDA in an area that I wasn't aware of. :thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

Just been hitting the highpoints so far, but this has been an interesting and informative thread OR, thanks for shedding some light on the SDA in an area that I wasn't aware of. :thumbsup:

I had read Martin's book, The Kingdom of the Cults, many years ago and took a quick look at Hanegraaff's revision a few years back.

I had forgotten about Investigative Judgment until I started responding to some of Ryan's posts. Got curious, Investigated and Judged!

 

[DHK]

I had read Martin's book, The Kingdom of the Cults, many years ago and took a quick look at Hanegraaff's revision a few years back.

I had forgotten about Investigative Judgment until I started responding to some of Ryan's posts. Got curious, Investigated and Judged!

It is one of the most heretical doctrines that they believe in, that is for sure.

 

[OldRegular]

It is one of the most heretical doctrines that they believe in, that is for sure.

I went back and reread the quotation I submitted in the OP. When you realize some of the things they believe or teach it dawns on you how far out these people are. Sometimes groups like the Branch Davidians and David Koresh spin off from these cults with disastrous results.

From the OP: {Emphasis Mine}

The investigative judgment doctrine, peculiar to Seventh-day Adventists, teaches that in fulfillment of Old Testament sanctuary typology, Christ entered into the second apartment of the sanctuary in heaven in 1844 in order to begin a work of "investigative judgment" to see who was worthy of eternal life, both of those still living and those dead.

A brief background for this teaching is called for. Ellen G. White, under the influence of William Miller, an early Adventist, agreed with his date for the visible return of Christ. October of 1844 was set for the second coming of Christ. Christ obviously did not return on that date, so in order to "save face" over a false prophecy, "investigative judgment" was born. 

SDA's use Daniel 8:14 in their reasoning.


In 1877, Uriah Smith, an early Adventist, declared, "Christ did not make the atonement when he shed his blood upon the cross. Let this fact be fixed forever in the mind”.

Ellen White herself declared (or plagiarized) in The Great Controversy that,"before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended." (1844).

There is even found in "The Great Controversy" this denial of Him as our absolute mediator. 

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil."

http://caic.org.au/biblebase/sda/investjudge.htm

Now it is possible that some SDA people reject these heretical beliefs but I have seen no indication from Ryan; just the posting of Scripture from Daniel without comment. And then good old Leroy Froom gives the excuse for these heretical beliefs: {Emphasis Mine}

Note: LeRoy Froom, an Adventist leader wrote that if the church didn't have the Investigative Judgment message that, "One would have no justifiable place in the religious world, no distinctive denominational mission and message, no excuse for functioning as a separate church entity today." Movement of Destiny, p. 542.
http://www.truthorfables.com/investi...ade_simple.htm

 

[DHK]

3. This judgment determines the eternal destiny of every professing believer. No one can be sure of eternal life until this judgment is complete. "The righteous dead will not be raised until after the judgment at which they are accounted worthy of ‘the resurrection of life.’ Hence they will not be present in person at the tribunal when their records are examined and their cases decided. ... Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected ... all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. ... The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another. ... Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. ... When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death" (Ellen White, The Great Controversy, pp. 425, 431-432).

file:///C:/Users/ProBook%204530s/Desktop/Library%20CD-ROM/FundamentalBaptistLibrary2000/WWW/fbns/avoiding08.htm

David Cloud has done extensive research on the SDA movement, all documented.
It is all a works-based movement, as this quote shows; no guarantee of salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

It is devastating when leaders of a cult confess that there is no, that is zero, Scriptural support for their heretical dogma.

I thought it was amazing that there is "zero interest in the Bible basis for the judgment doctrine" that is the subject of this thread - as shown repeatedly in the case of Daniel 7.

I think if you ignore the text of Dan 7 'enough' you can eventually get yourself to the point of thinking that maybe -- Daniel 7 does not exist.

Apparently that is what is going on in that post above.

So... I will post some "actual Bible" - so the bible-avoidance group can have something to "avoid".

Enjoy!

The pre-advent Investigative Judgment in heaven - is shown in Daniel 7 (AND is accepted by the Seventh-day Adventist Church).

Investigative: as in -- it is a judgement based on data/evidence contained in books of record. "the court sat and the books were opened" - this is highlighted in my quote

Pre-Advent: It is shown in the chapter to take place after the Roman Empire falls, after the 1260 years dark ages of persecution of the saints that follows the fall of Pagan Rome at some point - but before the 2nd coming of Christ and the setting up of Christ's Kingdom.

It is also shown in the text - to include the saints as subjects of the judgment for "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". also highlighted in the text - in the quote.

Hence my repeated appeal to "Bible details".

Daniel 7 for those who prefer - the actual Bible.

========================

I will post the text "again" because it appears that the instict to "Bible-avoidance" by those who oppose this topic is a hard habit break.

====================================


The pre-advent Judgment of Dan 7 - based on

investigating the records/books of heaven.

Dan 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

...

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
...
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

==========================
(As already posted a few times by now) --

(Ten pages at this point - and the bible-avoidance gimmick of ignoring the chapter in Daniel 7 that spells out the foundation for this Bible subject - is about as Bible-empty when it comes to Daniel 7 as one accustomed to that sort of thing - could wish for).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

What does Daniel 7 have to do with this doctrine called "investigative judgment"??????

We all know that God judges! Can you explain it in your OWN words Bob? Instead of accusing all of us of not caring about what the Bible says?

 

[OldRegular]

I thought it was amazing that there is "zero interest in the Bible basis for the judgment doctrine" that is the subject of this thread - as shown repeatedly in the case of Daniel 7.

I think if you ignore the text of Dan 7 'enough' you can eventually get yourself to the point of thinking that maybe -- Daniel 7 does not exist.

Apparently that is what is going on in that post above.

So... I will post some "actual Bible" - so the bible-avoidance group can have something to "avoid".

Enjoy!

The pre-advent Investigative Judgment in heaven - is shown in Daniel 7 (AND is accepted by the Seventh-day Adventist Church).

Investigative: as in -- it is a judgement based on data/evidence contained in books of record. "the court sat and the books were opened" - this is highlighted in my quote

Pre-Advent: It is shown in the chapter to take place after the Roman Empire falls, after the 1260 years dark ages of persecution of the saints that follows the fall of Pagan Rome at some point - but before the 2nd coming of Christ and the setting up of Christ's Kingdom.

It is also shown in the text - to include the saints as subjects of the judgment for "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". also highlighted in the text - in the quote.

Hence my repeated appeal to "Bible details".

Daniel 7 for those who prefer - the actual Bible.

========================

I will post the text "again" because it appears that the instict to "Bible-avoidance" by those who oppose this topic is a hard habit break.

====================================


The pre-advent Judgment of Dan 7 - based on

investigating the records/books of heaven.

Dan 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

...

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
...
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

==========================
(As already posted a few times by now) --

(Ten pages at this point - and the bible-avoidance gimmick of ignoring the chapter in Daniel 7 that spells out the foundation for this Bible subject - is about as Bible-empty when it comes to Daniel 7 as one accustomed to that sort of thing - could wish for).

in Christ,

Bob

Investigative Judgment is not mentioned or supported in any way by the Scripture you post. SDA is accused of heresy out of the mouths of some of their proponents. If the following, which I repeat, is not rank heresy then heresy does not exist:

From the OP: {Emphasis Mine}

The investigative judgment doctrine, peculiar to Seventh-day Adventists, teaches that in fulfillment of Old Testament sanctuary typology, Christ entered into the second apartment of the sanctuary in heaven in 1844 in order to begin a work of "investigative judgment" to see who was worthy of eternal life, both of those still living and those dead.

A brief background for this teaching is called for. Ellen G. White, under the influence of William Miller, an early Adventist, agreed with his date for the visible return of Christ. October of 1844 was set for the second coming of Christ. Christ obviously did not return on that date, so in order to "save face" over a false prophecy, "investigative judgment" was born. 

SDA's use Daniel 8:14 in their reasoning.


In 1877, Uriah Smith, an early Adventist, declared, "Christ did not make the atonement when he shed his blood upon the cross. Let this fact be fixed forever in the mind”.

Ellen White herself declared (or plagiarized) in The Great Controversy that,"before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended." (1844).

There is even found in "The Great Controversy" this denial of Him as our absolute mediator. 

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil."

http://caic.org.au/biblebase/sda/investjudge.htm

Note: LeRoy Froom, an Adventist leader wrote that if the church didn't have the Investigative Judgment message that, "One would have no justifiable place in the religious world, no distinctive denominational mission and message, no excuse for functioning as a separate church entity today." Movement of Destiny, p. 542.
http://www.truthorfables.com/investi...ade_simple.htm

And then from DHK's post:

3. This judgment determines the eternal destiny of every professing believer. No one can be sure of eternal life until this judgment is complete. "The righteous dead will not be raised until after the judgment at which they are accounted worthy of ‘the resurrection of life.’ Hence they will not be present in person at the tribunal when their records are examined and their cases decided. ... Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected ... all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. ... The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another. ... Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. ... When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death" (Ellen White, The Great Controversy, pp. 425, 431-432).

Titus 3:10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

I am taking Paul's advice!

 

[BobRyan]

What does Daniel 7 have to do with this doctrine called "investigative judgment"??????

We all know that God judges! Can you explain it in your OWN words Bob? Instead of accusing all of us of not caring about what the Bible says?

Ok - but as you saw in my prior post - i keep giving several examples "in my own words" where the key elements to the Investigative doctrine show up in Daniel 7.

1. Investigative: in the form of "books opened" - data reviewed, evidence for the myriads and myriads of that court room.

2. The court of Dan 7:9-10 and the judgment of Dan 7:22-27.

3. Fact that it is preAdvent as we saw clearly in vs 27.

4. The fat that it takes place after the 1260 years of dark ages (times time and 1/2 time) persecution of the saints by the little horn. (I think even the Protestant reformers get the identity of that little horn.) - which is after the division of Rome into 10 parts and after the rise of an 11th horn power from within the Roman Empire that is to rule for 1260 years during the dark ages.

5. Saints are included as the subject of the Judgment for Dan 7:22 says "Judgment was passed in favor of the saints" NASB.

I think this has been posted half a dozen times by me so far.

Just pointing to the details that we can see in the chapter itself as anyone can see that reads the actual post.

it is pretty hard to claim that when I point to the verse - and the words in the verse that are addressing a given point - that "no attention at all to the chapter" (which has been the overwhelming response from those who are biased against it) is the same thing as "paying close attention to the details of the subject and in the actual chapter)

I have never insisted that anyone agree with me on any chapter - but simply running away from the chapter to avoid all discussion of it -- is pretty new even for this section of the BB. But if they feel they need to vent for a while before they will settle down and look at the actual text - then so be it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

There is no Bible in your post, Bob, just highly speculative philosophical ponderings on some verses in the Bible. Basically it is exempt of any Biblical exposition or Scriptural truth.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Amy.G
What does Daniel 7 have to do with this doctrine called "investigative judgment"??????

We all know that God judges! Can you explain it in your OWN words Bob? Instead of accusing all of us of not caring about what the Bible says?

Ok - but as you saw in my prior post - i keep giving several examples "in my own words" where the key elements to the Investigative doctrine show up in Daniel 7.

1. Investigative: in the form of "books opened" - data reviewed, evidence for the myriads and myriads of that court room.

2. The court of Dan 7:9-10 and the judgment of Dan 7:22-27.

3. Fact that it is preAdvent as we saw clearly in vs 27.

There is no Bible in your post, Bob,

Question: I can't believe you would have just posted that had you actually read the question for that post above. Are you even reading the posts?

Admit it - you are not actually reading these posts beyond a one or two sentence snip.

It shows.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[OldRegular]

What does Daniel 7 have to do with this doctrine called "investigative judgment"??????

We all know that God judges! Can you explain it in your OWN words Bob? Instead of accusing all of us of not caring about what the Bible says?

Amy,

Many years ago I taught the Book of Daniel in SS. Following are some notes I prepared. I realize that Daniel is difficult to understand in some places but I believe the following interpretation shows that Ryan and the SDA are ignorant of Scripture.

Daniel, Chapter 7

The 7th chapter of Daniel presents an account of a dream or vision that Daniel experienced during the first year of the reign of Belshazzar. The vision is prophetic in nature. The information given parallels that revealed in the interpretation of the dream of King Nebuchadnezzar as presented in chapter 2. Furthermore Daniel’s vision expands on the prophetic information presented in chapter 2. Before continuing with Chapter 7 it is worth reviewing the prophecy of Chapter 2 and its interpretation.

Daniel 2:36-45, KJV
36 This [is] the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all [things]: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Daniels interpretation of the dream is that the statue represents four consecutive kingdoms and that the during the days of the 4th kingdom God will establish a kingdom which will destroy all others and shall stand forever. Daniel identifies the first kingdom as Babylon, which represented by the golden head. History has identified the remaining kingdoms as follows: the 2nd kingdom, represented by the silver breasts and arms represents the Medo-Persian empire, which will conquer Babylon; the 3rd kingdom represented by the belly and thighs of brass represents the empire of Alexander the Great; the 4th kingdom represents the Roman Empire, which was without doubt the greatest of the four. Verse 41 seems to indicate that the 4th kingdom will continue exist for some time as a divided kingdom. In verse 2:34 Daniel speaks of a stone, not made with hands “which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.” In verses 2:44,45 Daniel identifies this stone as the Kingdom of God which will be established during the days of the 4th kingdom, will “break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” Notice one important revelation in this scripture, once the Kingdom of God is established it will “stand forever”. When we studied Chapter 2 we looked at a number of passages from the New Testament that validate the establislment of the Kingdom of God by Jesus Christ. Lets revisit a couple of these passages.

Mark 1:14,15, KJV
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:17, 25-27, KJV
17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men].
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Lets look now at the similar prophecy given in Chapter 7. You will see as the passage is read that more information is given about each kingdom.

Daniel 7:1-8, KJV
1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.
2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and [it had] three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Rather than a statue as in Nebuchadnezzar dream the four kingdoms are represested by four beasts that come up out of a sea. Three of these beasts are known animals with some added features, the fourth beast is different and dissimiliar from any real beast. We have already alluded to the meaning of the four beasts. However. before we discuss these creatures further we will look at the next passage of scripture.

Daniel 7:9-14, KJV
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

In this passage of scripture we have a picture of God sitting in judgment of the four beasts [or kingdoms]. Daniel is the only place in scripture where God is referred to as the Ancient of days. Notice that the judgment of the fourth beast is more severe than that of the others. The kingdoms represented by all the beasts were guilty of warfare against the people of God, however, remember that the first kingdom [Babylon] was used by God to judge Judah. Also keep in mind that the forth kingdom was an instrument used in the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ.

Notice particularly in verse 14 that a kingdom is given to the Son of Man [Jesus Christ] by the Ancient of days and that this kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. Its worth reading verse 14 again.

“And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.”

 

[OldRegular]

What does Daniel 7 have to do with this doctrine called "investigative judgment"??????

We all know that God judges! Can you explain it in your OWN words Bob? Instead of accusing all of us of not caring about what the Bible says?

Many years ago I taught the Book of Daniel in SS. Following are some notes I prepared. I realize that Daniel is difficult to understand in some places but I believe the following interpretation shows that Ryan and the SDA are ignorant of Scripture.

Daniel, Chapter 7, continued

We have already shown that the Kingdom of God was established at His first coming. There are two familiar passages of scripture that while not necessarily shedding any light on Daniel &:14 are nevertheless enlightening.

Mark 12:35,36, KJV
35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


1 Corinthians 15:24-28, KJV
24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Notice that in the first passage Jesus Christ is said to sit at the right hand of God until God makes all the enemies of Jesus Christ His footstool. In the second passage, 1 Corinthians 15:25, Jesus Christ is said to put all enemies under His feet, while in verses 27 and 28 God is again said to put all things under Jesus Christ. This is entirely consistent with Daniel 7:14.

Lets look now at the identification of the four beasts. Scripture gives us some assistance.

Daniel 7:15-28, KJV
15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of [my] body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth [were of] iron, and his nails [of] brass; [which] devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
28 Hitherto [is] the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

There are several things that are of significance in this passage of scripture and the earlier passage presenting the beasts, verses 1-8. Notice:


1. The four beasts represent four kings or kingdoms. We have already indicated this in the earlier discussion of the parallelism between chapters 2 and 7.

2. From chapter 2 and from verses 9-14 above we see that during the time of the fourth kingdom the Kingdom of God will be established.

3. The 1st beast was like a lion with eagles wings. This beast represents Babylon and the figure of a lion with wings was apparently a symbol used to represent Babylon.

4. The 2nd beast is a bear with three ribs in its mouth and represents the Medo-Persian Empire. These ribs are suggested by some to represent the three kingdoms that the Medes and Persians conquered, Assyria, Babylon, and Egypt.

5. The 3rd beast is a leopard and represents the kingdom of Alexander the Great. The leopard has four wings and four heads. After the death of Alexander the kingdom was divided among four lesser rulers. This may be what the four wings and/or heads are supposed to indicate.

6. The 4th beast is Imperial Rome. This kingdon lasted almost as long as the other three combined. The ten horns may indicate that the kingdom will be divided [see also comments in Chapter 2] and that a number of kingdoms will come out of Rome. I don’t believe it is necessary to limit the number of horns [or subsidiary kingdoms] to ten. Particularly since another horn or kingdom arises which dominates three of the ten. I believe the number ten represents completeness. This last horn “had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things”. Notice that the ten horns and then the last horn were a part of the fourth beast while it was still alive so to speak. The beast does not die and come to life again. The ten plus one did not come out of a dead beast. Remember also that as far as the account goes this 4th beast [kingdom] had already been judged and that during this 4th kingdom the everlasting Kingdom of God had been established.

7. Power is given to the last horn that “had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things” to persecute the saints of God. When did this persecution begin? I believe it started immediately. There is no indication here of any extended period before persecution starts. How long does the persecution last? Until the Ancient of days [God] calls a halt and renders judgment. I believe that the time indicated, “a time and times and the dividing of time” simply indicates that the time allowed by God for persecution of the saints is limited. That God fixes and limits the time of persecution for His saints is demonstrated in Revelation 2:8-11, as follows

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

8. History shows that persecution of the Church by Imperial Rome began almost immediately. Imperial Rome no longer exists but the “horn with eyes” continues to persecute the Church. So what does this horn represent? I Believe it represents the Anti Christ. At various times in history the Anti Christ may manifest himself in different ways. I have two commentaries, one by a 19th century Baptist, the second by a 20th century Lutheran, who believe that the papacy is the AntiChrist.

9. The final message of Daniel’s vision is that the Kingdom of God is victorious. That is that message of the Bible. It is particularly the message of the prophetic books, especially the book of Revelation.