That has been a answered many times.
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The High Priestly Prayer
- Thread starter Reformed1689
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... always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you... 1 Peter 3:15
... always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you... 1 Peter 3:15
Yep every time some newbie who misunderstands election comes on this board they ask me the same questions as if they are the first to think it up.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
"Emulations" Mark.
They are a work of the flesh, not a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:19-23 ).
Once again I encourage you to obey the Lord when it comes to some of your comments and to remind you that your time on this board doesn't rate you any special privileges and it never has.
This is a Christian board, not a fraternity.
There are no "ranks" in the body of Christ, and not one of God's children has to "earn the right to be heard".
Everyone here has the right and privilege, as long as they obey the rules, to expect a fair hearing and to be treated as equals.
Where you seem to get the idea that those that are "newbies" should bow to some sort of "pecking order", I do not know...
But it isn't from the Bible.
That's man's way of doing things, not God's way.
Again, I bid you a good evening, sir.
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"Emulations" Mark.
They are a work of the flesh, not a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:19-23 ).
Once again I encourage you to obey the Lord when it comes to some of your comments and to remind you that your time on this board doesn't rate you any special privileges and it never has.
This is a Christian board, not a fraternity.
There are no "ranks" in the body of Christ, and not one of God's children has to "earn the right to be heard".
Everyone here has the right and privilege, as long as they obey the rules, to expect a fair hearing and to be treated as equals.
Where you seem to get the idea that those that are "newbies" should bow to some sort of "pecking order", I do not know...
But it isn't from the Bible.
That's man's way of doing things, not God's way.
Again, I bid you a good evening, sir.
Sigh, I never said anything about a pecking order. That is what you wanted to read into it. Its your thing.
What should perhaps be of concern to you is that those you disdain as "newbies " all understand biblical election and it has escaped you so you suggest they all misunderstand?
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The poster is not asking, he is not searching for an answer.... always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you... 1 Peter 3:15
He is ignoring the answer to restate error.
You are right that he really is not asking a question. But he us also not searching - he has his answer in 2 Peter.
He, like you, is not rejecting Scripture but challenging a different interpretation.
You believe you have given a defense of your position but obviously that defense was insufficient to account for his objection.
That is how things go here. You (and he) are working off different interpretations and expectations. So each of your "proofs" miss the mark.
The best you can hope for is a common understanding of one another - not an agreement but an understanding. That is what you are talking about here (not divine truths but human interpretation and understanding of divine revelations).
This is a very old topic (about free-will) and predates Christianity. Anyone who is familiar with Greek and Roman mythology can see this (I hope that is everyone here as this is a high school subject).
The idea (often repeated on the BB) that natural man rejects the idea that there is no free-will and that God has elected (or chosen) the fate of man because this is some type of divine truth is, of course, false. Pagans were on both side of this debate long before Christ died.
Pagans believed that the gods choose man's fate and prescribed what would come, men having the ability to freely choose but not the will to change or alter the course set by the gods. Man's choice is always predetermined.
At the same time other pagans believed that men were in charge of their destinies and that their decisions would be the determining factor.
People hold competing ideas which lead to people talking past one another. I agree that you have not sufficiently defended your position. But I also agree that he has not defended his to your objections.
JonC,
That is not obvious at all. What is obvious is he does not grasp the passage....Roby....work through the passage verse by verse and show how you believe you answer the passage.
Not one of my proofs have missed anything.
That is your point of view.
Maybe some people share your view.
I do not, in fact, I understand it quite differently.
In your world, there is no right and wrong evidently.
In my world, there is truth and error.
If someone denies the trinity...they are wrong every time.
My proofs are not the issue as you would claim. It is not that they miss the mark.
You are welcome to your errant point of view of course. I am rejecting your ideas. I think others reject them also.
not really.
He is rejecting scripture. He can show how what we have said is wrong,but he has never done that.
That is not obvious at all. What is obvious is he does not grasp the passage....Roby....work through the passage verse by verse and show how you believe you answer the passage.
Not one of my proofs have missed anything.
That is your point of view.
Maybe some people share your view.
I do not, in fact, I understand it quite differently.
In your world, there is no right and wrong evidently.
In my world, there is truth and error.
If someone denies the trinity...they are wrong every time.
My proofs are not the issue as you would claim. It is not that they miss the mark.
You are welcome to your errant point of view of course. I am rejecting your ideas. I think others reject them also.
You do not understand, @Iconoclast.
In "my world" right and wrong and truth is not subjective. God's Word is not dependent on man but is God's own revelation to man. Truth is very much objective, concrete, and immovable. The reason is Scripture is God’s Word and God breathed. I believe that God's Word is the test of doctrine, not that we go to Scripture to come up with "proofs" but that we start with Scripture to develop doctrine. I doubt we will ever agree here.
You may disagree and you may prefer human tradition; and that is not any business of mine. But I will always continue to insist that truth is eternal, objective, and absolute because God is eternal, objective and absolute. They are His Words - that is something you should always keep in mind.
Consider Proverbs 3:5-6; Matthew 24:35; 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
This is an interesting topic. It reminds me of similar discussions on prayer in general.
I think that both sides can chime in on how the prayer fits their theologies.
Non-Calvinists could ask how Calvinists reconcile Christ praying that He has finished the work the Father has given Him to do with the fact that this prayer is prior to the Cross (for example).
These types of discussions can go far in at least people understanding opposing views (if people can keep calm and discuss thing in a Christ-like manner).
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree, Jon.
But I think that one thing that keeps being overlooked, is the very real and concrete fact that, despite everyone here claiming to be saved and having the Holy Spirit, no three people seem to be able to agree on anything, especially with the "highly controversial subjects" of election and the atonement.
So, if we're all saved, then why no eventual like-mindedness, and why no, "... till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" ( Ephesians 4:13 )?
There's a problem on this forum Jon, and it's a lot bigger and more serious than I think that you are considering.
This thread only proves it yet again.
Who is Christ praying for?
For whom did He go to the cross for?
Who does God love?
Why do people believe the Gospel and bring forth true spiritual fruit, and others fall away back into the world and its ways, and never bring forth that fruit to perfection?
Why do people who profess Christ never grow in their understanding of the Scriptures?
Why do errant doctrines continue to plague the visible churches?
The Bible actually answers all of those questions.
I also have seen where most people who post here, don't like those answers.
Scripture says what it says, yet people keep wrangling over the very words on the page.
I don't see it ending anytime soon...do you?
Have you actually seen anyone's beliefs change over that year and a half?
How about over the past 10, 15, or 20 that some of the members have been here?
Nope.
Nothing changes, despite all the "discussion".
Post a thread and all one gets is the same people saying the same things from the same sides.
Yet I continue to hope that something will change, despite it never changing.
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JonC,
I am sure you think that to be the case. I do understand however despite your suggestion to the contrary.
Good, we agree on this.
Your error begins here. Who says we do not start with scripture?
I have posted for over 10 years this from the 1689;
Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures
1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )
You cannot quote me saying any such thing. If you have a quote of me saying this, produce it.
This is the kind of insinuation that led a new poster to suggest you are a dishonest poster about a month ago.
You do this quite often. Many others have observed this. You should not do this. It is wrong.
It could be your business if you meant to offer sincere correction, but as I have not posted this, your comments are not helpful to anyone.
[QUOTE]But I will always continue to insist that truth is eternal, objective, and absolute because God is eternal, objective and absolute.[/QUOTE]
That is wonderful JonC...we agree on this
Who says I do not keep this in mind? You are the only one who suggests this.
I might have to social distance myself from such posting.
I am sure you think that to be the case. I do understand however despite your suggestion to the contrary.
Good, we agree on this.
Your error begins here. Who says we do not start with scripture?
I have posted for over 10 years this from the 1689;
Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures
1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )
You cannot quote me saying any such thing. If you have a quote of me saying this, produce it.
This is the kind of insinuation that led a new poster to suggest you are a dishonest poster about a month ago.
You do this quite often. Many others have observed this. You should not do this. It is wrong.
It could be your business if you meant to offer sincere correction, but as I have not posted this, your comments are not helpful to anyone.
[QUOTE]But I will always continue to insist that truth is eternal, objective, and absolute because God is eternal, objective and absolute.[/QUOTE]
That is wonderful JonC...we agree on this
Who says I do not keep this in mind? You are the only one who suggests this.
I might have to social distance myself from such posting.
They cannot so they try all other ideas other than the truth.
I know of several whose views have changed.
Good points, Dave.
I suggest that the issue, the real and concrete fact, that people who are saved do not agree is a human problem (it is not God’s problem).
What is being disputed here? Election? Human free-will and the mind of God in choosing a people?
Do we believe that “divine truth”, that the leading of the Spirit, is to understand the mind of God in election or the will of man in God’s choosing?
I believe it is by definition a philosophical (not a biblical) question. It is what pagan Greeks argued about for centuries.
Perhaps there is a reason that Christians, led by God and indwelt by the Spirit, find themselves on opposing sides of this issue. Perhaps people ask the wrong questions.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yes, I was a little hasty when I posted that part.
I know of one or two as well...
But not very many.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
What continues to be disputed are the words on the page, not their "interpretation".
How we handle those words is on us, not on the Lord.
We can either believe everything He says ( because we trust it as the truth ), or we, as professing believers, can do as Thomas Jefferson did...
Only without the scissors.
Again, we see a difference, Jon.
To me, human philosophy has no place in a discussion among believers.
Toss it out the window, and trust the Lord ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ).
If you think philosophy has any place in understanding God's words, we will always disagree.
I know that is the case, @Iconoclast, by your own statement. You misunderstood my view to be that there is no right and wrong. Instead my view is exactly the opposite. Obviously you do not grasp what I am trying to say. It is my fault and I apologize that I cannot articulate it to your understanding.
What I have been saying is that Scripture is absolute truth, it is objective, it is infallible, it is concrete and immovable because it is God’s Word. Scripture is not reference material to be picked apart to “support” whatever doctrine men may hold. Scripture is not subjective and truth is not subjective.
There is right and wrong…no in between. A little leaven levens the whole lump.
You may disagree and you may prefer human tradition as it answers the questions that you have, or perhaps provides a framework bent to human understanding. I don’t know, nor do I care. That is between you and God. BUT what matters is what is written.
What I have been saying is that Scripture is absolute truth, it is objective, it is infallible, it is concrete and immovable because it is God’s Word. Scripture is not reference material to be picked apart to “support” whatever doctrine men may hold. Scripture is not subjective and truth is not subjective.
There is right and wrong…no in between. A little leaven levens the whole lump.
You may disagree and you may prefer human tradition as it answers the questions that you have, or perhaps provides a framework bent to human understanding. I don’t know, nor do I care. That is between you and God. BUT what matters is what is written.
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