The High Priestly Prayer

[robycop3]

Where is it in scripture that some were pre-ordained and others were not?

Eph. 1:5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Eph. 1:11In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Again, if everyone were predestinated, unable to change their status no matter what, why have Bibles, preachers, or worship at all ?

 

[robycop3]

Of course that isn't true at all.

Of course it's not true cuz not everyone is predestinated.

 

[robycop3]

Some were pre-ordained and some were not?

Sure. Moses. Jeremiah, & Paul, among others were pre-chosen by God for special service to Him. Remember, He made eacha them "an offer he coiuldn't refuse".

 

[Revmitchell]

I have been on here for a few yrs and know that he has been on here longer than me

It was shocking for me to read thats all that was meant.

Grace and peace

If we are going to have a discussion about scripture we need to post that scripture especially when it is the op. Further, in all my years on this board I have learned that people can use the same words and means entirely different things. It is just best to be specific.

 

[Reynolds]

Sure. Moses. Jeremiah, & Paul, among others were pre-chosen by God for special service to Him. Remember, He made eacha them "an offer he coiuldn't refuse".

Ok. Just making sure. Me being C.A. pretty much agree with you.

 

[Yeshua1]

He did but that doesnt negate His talking about the disciples in 24

God deals with all of His redeemed in same fashion as he did His Apostles though!

 

[Dave G]

By coming to Jesus in belief, repentance, & submission, one BECOMES elect.

Then grace isn't grace, is it ( Romans 11:5-6 )?
God's work depends on man's actions, doesn't it?

Therefore, men determine who is saved, not God.
According to what you have stated, men elect themselves, don't they?

How convenient that selfish, God-hating men have a say in their eternal destiny, rendering Almighty God to the position of man's impotent, servile lapdog.
That's not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, roby.

That's not the God who delivered Israel out of the hand of Pharoah and then later killed most of the nation of Israel in the Wilderness.
That's a god of man's making.

If that were so for all the saved, there'd be no need for Bibles, preachers, or worshipping at all.

Bibles are to educate the elect on what God has done for them ( Romans 15:4, 2 Timothy 2:15 ).
Preachers are to spread the Gospel to the children of God ( the elect ) and to edify ( build them up ) in the faith ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ) that was once delivered unto the saints ( Jude 1:3 ).
They worship God in spirit and in truth ( John 4:24 ).

So, contrary to how you see God's choice of the sinner to salvation, there is a need for all of it.
God ordains the means, as well as the message.

Where you see "chance", I see purpose.
Where you see "what if", I see God finishing the works from the foundation of the world, and it then playing out over the course of time as the elect come to repentance via the means and message.

The God of the Bible is orderly, mysterious, and most of all, NOT in any sense governed by our choices as rebellious sinners.
Yet He has chosen to reveal, in His word, why He has saved any of us.

For now, roby, it appears to me that you have the cart before the horse and are making God's salvation of sinners dependent upon our will and desires, man not on His.

It isn't ( John 1:13, James 1:18, Titus 3:5-6 ).
There are no works of righteousness that we as men can do to gain God's favor and get Him to save any of us from His wrath.

He decides, not us.

 

[Yeshua1]

Then grace isn't grace, is it ( Romans 11:5-6 )?
God's work depends on man's actions, doesn't it?

Therefore, men determine who is saved, not God.
According to what you have stated, men elect themselves, don't they?

How convenient that selfish, God-hating men have a say in their eternal destiny, rendering Almighty God to the position of man's impotent, servile lapdog.
That's not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, roby.

That's not the God who delivered Israel out of the hand of Pharoah and then later killed most of the nation of Israel in the Wilderness.
That's a god of man's making.

Bibles are to educate the elect on what God has done for them ( Romans 15:4, 2 Timothy 2:15 ).
Preachers are to spread the Gospel to the children of God ( the elect ) and to edify ( build them up ) in the faith ( Ephesians 4:11-17 ) that was once delivered unto the saints ( Jude 1:3 ).
They worship God in spirit and in truth ( John 4:24 ).

So, contrary to how you see God's choice of the sinner to salvation, there is a need for all of it.
God ordains the means, and well as the message.

Where you see "chance", I see purpose.
Where you see "what if", I see God finishing the works from the foundation of the world, and it then playing out over the course of time as the elect come to repentance via thu 390 pagese means and message.

I am going thru Berkhok ST now, and so far been wading thru 390 pages, and election not as some see it as being!

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course it's not true cuz not everyone is predestinated.

That just refers to those who are chosen in Christ, His elect!

 

[Yeshua1]

Sure. Moses. Jeremiah, & Paul, among others were pre-chosen by God for special service to Him. Remember, He made eacha them "an offer he coiuldn't refuse".

Same way for all who get redeemed!

 

[robycop3]

Then grace isn't grace, is it ( Romans 11:5-6 )?
God's work depends on man's actions, doesn't it?

Therefore, men determine who is saved, not God.
According to what you have stated, men elect themselves, don't they?

How convenient that selfish, God-hating men have a say in their eternal destiny, rendering Almighty God to the position of man's impotent, servile lapdog.
That's not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, roby.

That's not the God who delivered Israel out of the hand of Pharoah and then later killed most of the nation of Israel in the Wilderness.
That's a god of man's making.

Bibles are to educate the elect on what God has done for them ( Romans 15:4, 2 Timothy 2:15 ).
Preachers are to spread the Gospel to the children of God ( the elect ) and to edify ( build them up ) in the faith ( Ephesians 4:11-17 ) that was once delivered unto the saints ( Jude 1:3 ).
They worship God in spirit and in truth ( John 4:24 ).

So, contrary to how you see God's choice of the sinner to salvation, there is a need for all of it.
God ordains the means, and well as the message.

Where you see "chance", I see purpose.
Where you see "what if", I see God finishing the works from the foundation of the world, and it then playing out over the course of time as the elect come to repentance via the means and message.

So, you were born elect & knew it from the gitgo ?

And 2 Peter 3:9 is incorrect ?

 

[Yeshua1]

So, you were born elect & knew it from the gitgo ?

And 2 Peter 3:9 is incorrect ?

None of us know that we are that until the Lord saves us, and peter taking about all elect in Christ getting saved!

 

[Dave G]

Part 1:

How do anti-Calvinists reconcile Christ's High Priestly prayer where he is clearly saying that he is talking about the elect and not the whole world meaning every person?

Dunno what an "anti-Calvinist" is, but I do know how people who do not believe portions of the Scripture render it.
They simply deny what it says, from my perspective.

Here is the prayer:

" These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 that they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them." ( John 17:1-26 ).

 

[Dave G]

Part 2:

Breaking it down, I see this:

Verse 2 clearly states that Christ has been given power over all flesh...every single man, woman and child that ever lived.
Why?
So that He should give eternal life...to who?

As many as the Father has given Him, and only as many as the Father has given to Him ( see John 6:44, John 6:65 ).
Therefore, eternal life, a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), is given to those who were given to Christ by the Father.

Verse 3 defines eternal life, which is to know God and His Son.
In verse 4, Jesus is stating that He has glorified the Father on earth and finished the work that His Father has given Him to do.

Verse 5 has Jesus asking His Father to glorify Him with the glory that He had before the world existed.
In verse 6 He is confessing that He has manifested the Father's name to the men which the Father gave to Him out of the world.
Therefore, as "all souls are mine" ( Ezekiel 18:4 ) and God has the right to have mercy upon whom He will ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ), God can and does give people to His Son in order for His Son to bestow eternal life to them, just as verse 2 plainly states.
They belonged to the Father and were given to Christ...not only that, but those men have kept the word of the Father.

Verse 7 has the Lord Jesus stating that those men have known that all things that Jesus were given ( the power to do miracles, the things He said, etc ) were of His Father.
In verse 8, He clarifies that the words which the Father gave to the Son were given to them ( the men that the Father gave to the Son out of the world ) and that they have received, or welcomed them. They knew that Christ came from the Father and that He was sent by Him.
Why?
Because flesh and blood had not revealed it to them, but His Father in Heaven did ( see Mathew 11:27, Matthew 16:13-17 ).

In verse 9 we see a defining, or limiting of whom Christ is praying for...
Not the world, but for those who had been given to Him by the Father. Not only is this speaking of His disciples, the 11, but all who would believe on Him.
This is clarified in verse 10, where it states that "all mine are thine and thine are mine.", and agrees with John 17:2, where Christ is given power over all flesh, but only gives eternal life to as many as His Father has given to Him.

In verse 11, Christ continues by stating that He is no longer in the world, but that these ( the ones given to Him by the Father ) are in the world, and Jesus is coming to His Father. He also asks His Father to keep them through His own name those that He gave to His Son so that they may be one.
Verse 12 gives more detail, with Christ stating that while He was in the world, He has kept those that His Father gave Him...except for the "son of perdition" ( Judas );
Why?
So that the Scripture would be fulfilled ( see Psalms 41:9 ).

Verse 14 reiterates what Christ has said in many places in His word...
That His sheep are not of this world, and the world of sinful men hates them.
In verse 15 He is asking His Father that they not be taken out of the world, but that they be kept from evil.

Skipping down to verse 19, we see that Christ is clarifying that for "their sakes" ( the sake of the ones the Father has given to Him out of the world ) He sanctifies Himself, and praying, again, not for the world, but for those that will believe on Him through their ( the disciples' ) word.

Therefore, Christ is praying...not for all humanity, but for His disciples and for those who would believe their word.
In verse 21 He tells us why He is praying this way...so that all believers may be one among another, and that they may be one with the Father and with the Son...and so that the "world" may believe that His Father has sent Him.

What "world"?
It can't be the world of all men, because Christ has already stated in this prayer that He is not praying for the world, but for those the Father has given Him.
Therefore, just as Revelation 5:9 and Revelation 7:9 states, that "world" is His elect out of every tongue, tribe and nation.
The same "world" that God so loved that He gave His only begotten Son for in John 3:16, and the same "world" spoken of in Romans 11:15.

Why?
Again, it is defined further in verse 25...not the "world" that did not know Christ, but a different "world".
The "world" that does know Christ, and that loves Him.
Scripture defines why a person knows God;
Because Jesus Christ manifests God the Father to each and every one of His sheep...and only to His sheep.

No one knows Christ unless it is revealed to them by the Father, and no one knows the Father without it being revealed to them by the Son ( Matthew 11:27, Matthew 16:15-17 ).

 

[Dave G]

Part 3:

Therefore, the "High Priestly Prayer" is for His disciples that were with Him, and those who would believe on Him through their word.
It is is no way a prayer for every man woman and child, and here Christ is defining who He loves:

Those given to Him by His Father out of the world.

Election, God's choice of the sinner to salvation, makes the whole thing all of grace and none of works.
Christ came to give Himself a ransom for many...not for all men.
He gave His life for His sheep ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ), not the goats.

He has prepared a place in Heaven for His people.
They have an inheritance waiting for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:34 ).


In the end, if anyone truly knows God and His Son ( eternal life ), it is because it has been revealed to their darkened mind by GOD, not men.
John 17:2 slams the door shut on every effort and desire of men to be saved apart from God directly causing it, and causing it for His elect out of every tongue, tribe and nation.
Christ is not praying for, and never has prayed for, anyone outside of those given to Him by the Father.

Christ suffered and died for only those that were given to Him by His Father, and no one else.
He died for His people, not those that hate God and will be cast into Hell for their sins.

This further demonstrates that the Lord controls every facet of salvation, and contrary to the teaching of many, has given none of that control over to sinful men and their wishful thinking.
One of those facets is the atonement ( Christ's being stricken for the transgressions of Isaiah's people, Isaiah 53:8 ), which is clarified here.

The salvation of men had a purpose from the foundation of the world:
To reserve a people to God for Himself, send His Son in the fullness of time, and save those that, from the heart believe on Him.



He has saved them to the "uttermost", and this prayer proves how much He loved and loves them ( Ephesians 2:4-7, 1 John 4:19 ), because as He was making ready to go to the cross, His thoughts were of them.

 

[Dave G]

So, you were born elect & knew it from the gitgo ?

And 2 Peter 3:9 is incorrect ?

I was born elect, Roby, and if you are saved, then so were you.
But I didn't know about my salvation until He notified me by the preaching of His word in 1978, and I believed it.

All of God's precious children were born elect, including David, Paul, Abel, Noah, Samuel and Enoch to name a few.
For more, please see Hebrews 11.
They were loved, foreknown, and chosen by God to salvation just as Psalms 65:4, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 plainly declare, and God caused them to approach Him in their hearts.

As for 2 Peter 3:9, we have dealt with the context of this time and again, haven't we?
The context of the "usward", "any" and "all" are the "brethren" from verse 8.
This agrees with John 10:28-29, where God is not willing that any of Christ's sheep( God's elect ) perish.

So, when the verse ( that I learned in Independent Baptist churches from the age of 12 and was always used to apply to all men indiscriminately ) is taken and plugged back into the text, we see who it's talking about, don't we?


Believers, not unbelievers.
The brethren, not those who hate God.

May He bless you greatly, sir.

 

[Revmitchell]

Then grace isn't grace, is it ( Romans 11:5-6 )?
God's work depends on man's actions, doesn't it?

No, that is a fallacy. It is because of God's choice and His love for His special creation that He decided to sacrifice His Son on our behalf. Man had nothing to do with that.

It is because of God's choice and His love for His special creation that God gave man the choice to choose Him out of love for Him or reject Him. Man had nothing to do with that.

God has ordained these things without man to include man to choose or reject Him.

How convenient that selfish, God-hating men have a say in their eternal destiny, rendering Almighty God to the position of man's impotent, servile lapdog.
That's not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, roby.

This is inflammatory, unnecessary, and lacks a basic understanding of the positions of those with whom you disagree with.

 

[Dave G]

No, that is a fallacy.

I disagree.

Again, there are only two sides to salvation...all of grace, or partly of it.
Operation, or co-operation.
Simply disagreeing with the term does not change the facts.

You teach that man's efforts have a part to play in God saving someone.
The Bible, on the other hand, nowhere teaches that man's will has anything to do with God deciding to save someone.

Quite the contrary, it specifically states that man's will does not play any part ( John 1:13, James 1:18, Titus 3:5-6 ).

It is because of God's choice and His love for His special creation that God gave man the choice to choose Him out of love for Him or reject Him. Man had nothing to do with that.

Again, the Bible teaches that man has already made the choice ( John 3:19-20 ).
Why you cannot see this, I have no idea.

Scripture itself declares that man hates God ( Romans 1:30 ) and starts out life that way ( Psalms 58:3 ).
To me, it's clear to anyone that reads and understands Romans chapters 1-3 that it takes a special act of God for any rebellious person to believe that they even need a Saviour.

This is inflammatory, unnecessary, and lacks a basic understanding of the positions of those with whom you disagree with.

I find it quite necessary to state it objectively, even if you don't agree with it, Mark.

My intention is not to inflame, but to urge people to consider what is really being taught and believed by so many.
As for understanding the position, I understand it quite well.
Having formerly been in Independent Baptist churches for over 25 years, I speak from a position of it being taught to me for decades.

That's part of why I disagree with it.

Because I don't see it being developed from all of Scripture, but from a selective reading and belief of certain sections of it.
In other words, man "accepting or rejecting" Christ is not how salvation works.
Man does not determine his eternal destiny...
God does.
The Biblical "plan of salvation" does not consist of an "offer", it consists of a purpose and a promise.

Therefore, I urge you to consider what you are teaching and believing, and to consider it objectively.

Finally, speaking the truth in love does not mean speaking it without offense, Mark.
It means that the wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy ( Proverbs 27:6 ) and I have no wish to be your enemy.
But, am I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
I hope not.

Something more to consider:
Would it not be a disservice to speak in any other way than openly and honestly?

I think that it would.


Good afternoon to you sir.

 

[Revmitchell]

I disagree.

Again, there are only two sides to salvation...all of grace, or partly of it.
Co-operation or operation.
Simply disagreeing with the term does not change the facts.

You teach that man's efforts have a part to play in God saving someone.
The Bible, on the other hand, nowhere teaches that man's will has anything to do with God saving someone.

Again, the Bible teaches that man has already made the choice ( John 3:19-20 ).
Why you cannot see this, I have no idea.

Scripture itself declares that man hates God ( Romans 1:30 ) and starts out life that way ( Psalms 58:3 ).
It's clear to anyone that reads Romans chapters 1-3.

I find it quite necessary to state it objectively, even if you don't agree with it, Mark.

My intention is not to inflame, but to urge people to consider what is really being taught and believed by so many.
As for understanding the position, I understand it quite well.
Having formerly been in Independent Baptist churches for over 25 years, I speak from a position of having been taught it for decades.

That's part of why I disagree with it.

Because I don't see it being developed from all of Scripture, but from a selective reading and belief of parts of it.
In other words, man "accepting or rejecting" Christ is not how salvation works.
Man does not determine his eternal destiny...God does.
The Biblical "plan of salvation" does not consist of an "offer", it consists of a purpose and a promise.

Therefore, I urge you to consider what you are teaching and believing, and to consider it objectively.

Finally, speaking the truth in love does not mean speaking it without offense, Mark.
It means that the wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy ( Proverbs 27:6 ) and I have no wish to be your enemy.

But, am I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
I hope not.

Something more to consider:
Would it not be a disservice to speak in any other way than openly and honestly?

I think that it would.


Good afternoon to you sir.

I do not teach that mans effort plays a part in saving someone. That is false and an intentional mischaracterization. Further, I explained my position which proves otherwise.

 

[Dave G]

How do anti-Calvinists reconcile Christ's High Priestly prayer where he is clearly saying that he is talking about the elect and not the whole world meaning every person?

Sorry,
I believe that you were asking those who disagree with election on how they see this passage, and I jumped in.

My apologies.