The Idea Of Free Will

[utilyan]

I don't think any but the most hyper of Calvinist argue the "absolutely no free will" position

The whole thing is built on Total Depravity. When a Total Depraved person does a ACTUAL GOOD ACT, its called evil or under evil motives.

Jesus Christ was charged with Total Depravity by the pharisees.

Matthew 12

24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”

25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27“If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. 28“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29“Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

In other words here the pharisees charge that Jesus only does good things outside of God's will.

What is Jesus' comeback? If Satan casts out Satan he is divided against himself. And he points out the will STRONG MAN.

29“Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

If you take the devil to be the "STRONG MAN" there is no way a person is going to be doing anything remotely good unless he is already bound up the strong man.

 

[Reformed1689]

And you have never answered just like you have no answer now.
MB

Ok, either you are being dishonest or you have a very bad memory. YOU started a whole thread on this called "John 12:32 in Context" and specifcially called me out in the OP. John 12:32 in context I answered you in post #6

 

[Calminian]

The idea that it is the will of man that chooses whether or not to be saved is false.

The Idea of Free Will

You need to look no further than John chapter 1. It states that it is not the will of the flesh but of God.

Man can't save himself, so it's a contradiction to say he chooses to be saved. Man can only trust God to do the saving. Man can place his trust in God, but only God can reckon that faith as righteousness. It's not the faith that saves, it's God's reckoning of that faith.

Gen. 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.​

 

[MB]

Ok, either you are being dishonest or you have a very bad memory. YOU started a whole thread on this called "John 12:32 in Context" and specifcially called me out in the OP. John 12:32 in context I answered you in post #6

I noticed you didn't show any proof of your theory then or now.. You haven't proven that all men does not mean all men. Christ said all men are drawn to Him. He did not even mention the Greeks because it means all men.
maybe you flunked English.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

I noticed you didn't show any proof of your theory then or now.. You haven't proven that all men does not mean all men. Christ said all men are drawn to Him. He did not even mention the Greeks because it means all men.
maybe you flunked English.
MB

Oh brother. If you can't understand context and the flow of sentences I can't help you but I'm pretty sure I'm not the one here that flunked English OR Greek.

 

[Calminian]

... If Scripture was the sole agent that causes belief then it would either be converting everyone, or there is another factor. That factor, of course, is that not everyone is chosen to salvation and God decides who will believe the word of Scripture. I also firmly believe one cannot be saved without hearing Scripture. This is another reason we know that God chooses for some have never heard Scripture. They really do not have a choice now do they?

A lot of assumptions. I say we do without, and just stick to what can be deducted without assumption. What's wrong with just embracing the unfathomable wisdom of God? What's wrong with leaving some things to mystery? The real mistake might be thinking we can systemize the mind of God.

 

[Reformed1689]

A lot of assumptions. I say we do without, and just stick to what can be deducted without assumption. What's wrong with just embracing the unfathomable wisdom of God? What's wrong with leaving some things to mystery? The real mistake might be thinking we can systemize the mind of God.

What is what can be deducted without assumption is the following:

Based on the own pleasure of His own good will and for His own purposes, God chooses to save some based on nothing but His choice and His choice alone. Man has nothing to do with it.

 

[Calminian]

What is what can be deducted without assumption is the following:

Based on the own pleasure of His own good will and for His own purposes, God chooses to save some based on nothing but His choice and His choice alone. Man has nothing to do with it.

Of course. It's God alone who chooses to save believers and not save unbelievers. Thus, God alone get's credit for salvation. We can't boast of anything, as it's 100% an undeserved gift.

 

[Reformed1689]

Of course. It's God alone who chooses to save believers and not save unbelievers. Thus, God alone get's credit for salvation. We can't boast of anything, as it's 100% an undeserved gift.

Actually you believe because you were chosen to believe.

 

[loDebar]

Rev 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me

 

[Calminian]

Actually you believe because you were chosen to believe.

Like I said, you might be right, but it's kind of irrelevant, as faith is not a meritorious act. Paul describes believers as the ungodly (Rom. 4:5). He continually draws a distinction between salvation through faith (gift) and through works (wage). He describes believers as recipients of a free gift.

The work is not the faith, but the reckoning of that faith, which is by the will and work of God alone.

You say salvation is not of man at all. I agree.

 

[Reformed1689]

Rev 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me

Yes His sheep hear his voice and come to him. Who gave him the sheep? The Father. Try again.

 

[Iconoclast]

Rm.

Exactly the HG inspired the authors and the word of God.

We are agreed here. Now what I am suggesting is just as the Holy Spirit has given these authors the word...The indwelling Spirit enables us to correctly welcome or receive the word.

 

[Iconoclast]

Revmitchell,

Having no hope as in no salvation without Christ. Says nothing about total depravity

Not so fast. A person without the Spirit being alienated from the life of God, has no chance of having a godly or proper worldview that can please God. Without keeping the heart as instructed in proverbs 4:23, such a person will increase in ungodliness.
If you want an expanded list, here you go;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[Iconoclast]

No just another rabbit trail.
MB

The Apostle Paul did not introduce any rabbit trail, but rather he was explaining the reality of post-fall man.
For you to understand this, you need to connect the dots.
if you are really searching you would do this.
We can only offer scripture. If you discount it, there is nothing else to offer you.

 

[Revmitchell]

Revmitchell,


Not so fast. A person without the Spirit being alienated from the life of God, has no chance of having a godly or proper worldview that can please God. Without keeping the heart as instructed in proverbs 4:23, such a person will increase in ungodliness.
If you want an expanded list, here you go;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

This just muddies the waters to what I responded to in your earlier post. Having no hope is not the same as total depravity. I was just pointing out that the verse you posted has nothing to do with total depravity.

 

[Calminian]

The Apostle Paul did not introduce any rabbit trail, but rather he was explaining the reality of post-fall man.
For you to understand this, you need to connect the dots.
if you are really searching you would do this.
We can only offer scripture. If you discount it, there is nothing else to offer you.

Total depravity (total inability) is a reality for sure. The natural man does not respond to spiritual truths.

1Cor. 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

This is why classical arminians and calvinists required a grace that precedes faith. Man is totally unable to respond apart from this grace. Some believe this is actual regeneration, which seems to contradict other Scriptures.

Rom. 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

Regardless, the natural man will not respond apart from an enlightening grace from the Supernatural. The question is, is this actual regeneration or is it an enlightenment that can be responded to with belief or unbelief?

 

[David Kent]

This just muddies the waters to what I responded to in your earlier post. Having no hope is not the same as total depravity. I was just pointing out that the verse you posted has nothing to do with total depravity.

Well I don't follow any points, but I would ask: "When Adam sinned was the fall total or partial?"

 

[loDebar]

Yes His sheep hear his voice and come to him. Who gave him the sheep? The Father. Try again.

NO, show the limitations on this verse .there are not any. The opportunity is for any , not the chosen few.

 

[Reformed1689]

NO, show the limitations on this verse .there are not any. The opportunity is for any , not the chosen few.

Of course there are no limitations if you take the verse out of context of the whole of Scripture.