The Imaginary Covenant of Grace

[Dave G]

Sure. Let’s start with what defines a biblical covenant.

Here's what defines a biblical covenant...

God making a promise to men.
Any promise.

Here is the "New Covenant" ( or New Testament ) in Christ's blood...

" But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away." ( Hebrews 8:6-13 ).

So, breaking it down...

In verse 6, Christ ( "He" being referenced from verse 1, the High Priest, and continuing from verse 23's "Jesus" in chapter 7 ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, by which He is the Mediator of a better covenant which was established on better promises ( there's that word "promise" ).
Verse 7 declares that the first covenant was not faultless, so a second one was sought.
Verse 8 states that God found fault with Israel, and the Lord told them ( Jeremiah 31:31-34 ) that He would make a new covenant with Israel and Judah...
Verse 9 declares this covenant to be not according to the first one when He took Israel out of Egypt ( the "Mosaic" Covenant ) and because Israel did not continue in it.
Verses 10 through 12 states what that covenant will consist of, for promises:

1) God will put His laws into the people's minds and write them in their hearts.
2) He will be to them a God.
3) They will be to Him a people.
4) He will be merciful to their unrighteousness ( sin ).
5) Their iniquities ( sins ) He will no longer remember.

Verse 13 states that the first covenant was made old by the new ( which is where we get the name "Old Testament" from in the Bible ).
At the time of the writing of Hebrews, that "Old Covenant" which decayed and became old was ready to vanish away.

 

[Yeshua1]

There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture.


I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.


God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.


If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).


The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

The Mosaic Law was the Old Covenant between God and Israel, new Covenant now one between god and all redeemed!

 

[Yeshua1]

Here's what defines a biblical covenant...

God making a promise to men.
Any promise.

Here is the "New Covenant" ( or New Testament ) in Christ's blood...

" But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away." ( Hebrews 8:6-13 ).

So, breaking it down...

In verse 6, Christ ( "He" being referenced from verse 1, the High Priest, and continuing from verse 23's "Jesus" in chapter 7 ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, by which He is the Mediator of a better covenant which was established on better promises ( there's that word "promise" ).
Verse 7 declares that the first covenant was not faultless, so a second one was sought.
Verse 8 states that God found fault with Israel, and the Lord told them ( Jeremiah 31:31-34 ) that He would make a new covenant with Israel and Judah...
Verse 9 declares this covenant to be not according to the first one when He took Israel out of Egypt ( the "Mosaic" Covenant ) and because Israel did not continue in it.
Verses 10 through 12 states what that covenant will consist of, for promises:

1) God will put His laws into the people's minds and write them in their hearts.
2) He will be to them a God.
3) They will be to Him a people.
4) He will be merciful to their unrighteousness ( sin ).
5) Their iniquities ( sins ) He will no longer remember.

Verse 13 states that the first covenant was made old by the new ( which is where we get the name "Old Testament" from in the Bible ).
At the time of the writing of Hebrews, that "Old Covenant" which decayed and became old was ready to vanish away.

New Covenant established by the shed blood of Christ!

 

[Sai]

Sure. Let’s start with what defines a biblical covenant. We can do this by comparing all of the scriptures that deal with them. I’ll be on it soon. Thx


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There are two types of covenants in the Bible: conditional and unconditional. It is important to distinguish between these two types of covenants in order to have a clear picture of what the Bible teaches.

1. Conditional Covenants
2. Unconditional Covenants


Starting with the
(1) Scripture of the Covenant
(2) Participants of it
(3) Provisions of it
(4) Importance of it
(5) Confirmation of it
(6) Status of it


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[Dave G]

In addition, the Lord Jesus states this:
" For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." ( Matthew 26:28 ).
"After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me." ( 1 Corinthians 11:25 ).

The Old Testament was sprinkled with blood as well ( Exodus 24:8 ).

So, what is the New Testament but a new covenant?
What does that New Testament consist of?
New and better promises.

Whose blood was sprinkled on the people?
In Exodus, Moses used hyssop to sprinkle the book of the Law and the people with the blood of oxen.
On the cross, Christ's sheep were "sprinkled" in God's eyes by His Son's blood.

Here is the final promise under the New Testament:

" For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." ( Romans 6:14 ).

That is why I call it the "Covenant of Grace", because it is not like the old one, which was the "Covenant of Law" under Moses and the prophets to Israel.
The New Testament now includes Gentiles wholesale as well as Israel, and they are a chosen people much the same as Israel was as a nation.


May God bless you in your studies.

 

[Yeshua1]

In addition, the Lord Jesus states this:
" For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." ( Matthew 26:28 ).
"After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me." ( 1 Corinthians 11:25 ).

The Old Testament was sprinkled with blood as well ( Exodus 24:8 ).

So, what is the New Testament but a new covenant?
What does that New Testament consist of?
New and better promises.

Whose blood was sprinkled on the people?
In Exodus, Moses used hyssop to sprinkle the book of the Law and the people with the blood of oxen.
On the cross, Christ's sheep were "sprinkled" in God's eyes by His Son's blood.

Here is the final promise under the New Testament:

" For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." ( Romans 6:14 ).

That is why I call it the "Covenant of Grace", because it is not like the old one, which was the "Covenant of Law" under Moses and the prophets to Israel.
The New Testament now includes Gentiles wholesale as well as Israel, and they are a chosen people much the same as Israel was as a nation.


May God bless you in your studies.

The New Covenant is the Covenant of grace!

 

[Sai]

The New Covenant is the Covenant of grace!

Then how we’re Old Testament saints saved?


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[Sai]

Here's what defines a biblical covenant...

God making a promise to men.
Any promise.

Here is the "New Covenant" ( or New Testament ) in Christ's blood...

" But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away." ( Hebrews 8:6-13 ).

So, breaking it down...

In verse 6, Christ ( "He" being referenced from verse 1, the High Priest, and continuing from verse 23's "Jesus" in chapter 7 ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, by which He is the Mediator of a better covenant which was established on better promises ( there's that word "promise" ).
Verse 7 declares that the first covenant was not faultless, so a second one was sought.
Verse 8 states that God found fault with Israel, and the Lord told them ( Jeremiah 31:31-34 ) that He would make a new covenant with Israel and Judah...
Verse 9 declares this covenant to be not according to the first one when He took Israel out of Egypt ( the "Mosaic" Covenant ) and because Israel did not continue in it.
Verses 10 through 12 states what that covenant will consist of, for promises:

1) God will put His laws into the people's minds and write them in their hearts.
2) He will be to them a God.
3) They will be to Him a people.
4) He will be merciful to their unrighteousness ( sin ).
5) Their iniquities ( sins ) He will no longer remember.

Verse 13 states that the first covenant was made old by the new ( which is where we get the name "Old Testament" from in the Bible ).
At the time of the writing of Hebrews, that "Old Covenant" which decayed and became old was ready to vanish away.

That is a blanket statement and an oversimplification


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[Mikey]

There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture.


I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.


God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.


If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).


The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

my understanding is tthat the two covenants are "Covenant of Works" (CoW) and "Covenant of Grace" (CoG). the CoW only covered the time of Adam before the fall, the covenant of works, was that if Adam was faithful and did not eat the fruit then Adam would have eternal life. After the fall then the CoG was initiated thus only through grace are we saved. (some disagree and argue that the CoG was promised after the fall but initiated at the death/resurrection thus the CoG is the New Covernant.

 

[Mikey]

The New Covenant is the Covenant of grace!

Then how we’re Old Testament saints saved?


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By Grace. If i understand Yeshua1 position is that the OT saints were saved by the promise of the New Covenant/ Covernant of Grace. In the same way the the OT saints would be saved by Christ's death and resurrection even though it did not happen when they lived and died.

 

[atpollard]

That is a blanket statement and an oversimplification

... but at lest it included scripture to support the opinions.

 

[Sai]

my understanding is tthat the two covenants are "Covenant of Works" (CoW) and "Covenant of Grace" (CoG). the CoW only covered the time of Adam before the fall, the covenant of works, was that if Adam was faithful and did not eat the fruit then Adam would have eternal life. After the fall then the CoG was initiated thus only through grace are we saved. (some disagree and argue that the CoG was promised after the fall but initiated at the death/resurrection thus the CoG is the New Covernant.

Thanks. Is that what you believe?


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[Sai]

By Grace. If i understand Yeshua1 position is that the OT saints were saved by the promise of the New Covenant/ Covernant of Grace. In the same way the the OT saints would be saved by Christ's death and resurrection even though it did not happen when they lived and died.

Again this is an oversimplification. Those in the Old Testament did not have to believe in Yeshua in order to be saved. Cornelius was already saved but had not as yet believed in Yeshua. God’s salvation was already by grace they faith apart from works but the content of what one needed to believe in order to get saved changed thru the ages.


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[atpollard]

Then how we’re Old Testament saints saved?

Those that died trusting in Abraham as their ‘father’ or the ‘Law of Moses’ for their salvation, were neither “saints” nor “saved”. Only those saved because of their faith in God, like the Moabitess Ruth or the shepherd David or the young men carried off into Babylon with Daniel, are saints ... are saved ... and placed their faith in God rather than lineage or Laws.

 

[Sai]

Those that died trusting in Abraham as their ‘father’ or the ‘Law of Moses’ for their salvation, were neither “saints” nor “saved”. Only those saved because of their faith in God, like the Moabitess Ruth or the shepherd David or the young men carried off into Babylon with Daniel, are saints ... are saved ... and placed their faith in God rather than lineage or Laws.

That’s not totally true.


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[atpollard]

That’s not totally true.

Neither is that.

 

[Sai]

... but at lest it included scripture to support the opinions.

He is correct in that if God makes a promise it’s a covenant. However, God did in fact make Covenants with man using one man as the representative head for all humanity or representative of a nation. Because this is factual, one needs to examine in a scholarly manner these specific times when God did so.


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[Dewey cothran]

There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture.


I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.


God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.


If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).


The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

sai i agree that God has only ever saved anyone by grace and ill even add that its false to assume that jews believed in salvation by works Judaism has never taught such a thing . But i think this could easily devolve into semantics because in the end we are still talking about salvation by grace through faith in christ. But no there is no covenant of works but for those who disagree its not a impending issue

 

[timtofly]

Then how we’re Old Testament saints saved?
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Does it matter? Those saved in the OT ended up just where they were supposed to be and when. All dead in Christ are waiting for the rapture, that includes all OT saints.

 

[Mikey]

sai i agree that God has only ever saved anyone by grace and ill even add that its false to assume that jews believed in salvation by works Judaism has never taught such a thing . But i think this could easily devolve into semantics because in the end we are still talking about salvation by grace through faith in christ. But no there is no covenant of works but for those who disagree its not a impending issue

that sounds like what NT Wright teaches, (New Perspective on Paul) is that what you believe?