The Imaginary Covenant of Grace

[Yeshua1]

@Sai I do not subscribe to full Covenant Theology, just as I do not subscribe to full on dispensationalism. However, if you are going to attack Covenant Theology you should at least correctly present their arguments.

Are you more into NCT then?

 

[Yeshua1]

David knew he was saved by grace. Yet he said that the Law of Moses was his delight and that he meditated on it day and night.


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For direction and leading, not for salvation!

 

[Yeshua1]

Wrong


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God Himself stated that the Mosaic Law was covenant between Him and national israel!

 

[Yeshua1]

Wrong. The Old Testament believers did not have that because it was not until Isaiah that it was revealed that Messiah had to die for sin. Those before had to believe in what had been revealed up to that point in time. For Israel, they had to believe that God chose them and that the Law of Moses was to be followed as their rule of life.


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All sinners saved was due to them placing trust and belief in the promised Messiah to come, as all of the feasts, sacrificices, OT books etc pointed towards Him!

 

[Yeshua1]

That is a blanket oversimplification. The disciples had salvation before they knew Messiah was going to die. This is why Jesus explained to them that they had already had a bath which represents salvation forgiveness (except for Judas who hadn’t taken a bath, he never believed, he was not regenerated). Mary and Joseph were both born again before Christ was born. Yet they did not know he would die for their sins. Noah has no idea that the Messiah would be put to death as a substitute. They had to believe that which had been revealed up to their time by God as true and on the basis of believing God’s word they obtained new birth.


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Cannot be saved/born again unless one has the promised Holy Spirit, and that was ln Pentacost!

 

[Yeshua1]

He already was


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No, as he had to hear of the messiah and receive the Holy Spirit for that to happen!

 

[Yeshua1]

Hey,

I was just clarifying what you said, as jews never believed in works salvation and there was not covenant of works are not the same thing. Thanks for claifying, and indeed NPP is complicated.

NPP is basically new old bad news, as it goes back to critical scholars who denied inspiration of Holy Spirit, and had Paul and Jesus arguing as to what salvation meant!

 

[Noah Hirsch]

There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture.


I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.


God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.


If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).


The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

That is not what people who speak about the Covenant of Grace believe. The Covenant of Grace is understood to be an overarching covenant that expands throughout redemption history. Whoever is saved from the Fall to the end has a saving interest in the Covenant of Grace.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is not what people who speak about the Covenant of Grace believe. The Covenant of Grace is understood to be an overarching covenant that expands throughout redemption history. Whoever is saved from the Fall to the end has a saving interest in the Covenant of Grace.

Any and all ever saved came under the CoG!

 

[Sai]

Jeremiah 31:31 is a New Covenant made with Israel. It is not a new covenant of grace over and against an old covenant of works. Don’t get it twisted friends


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[timtofly]

Jeremiah 31:31 is a New Covenant made with Israel. It is not a new covenant of grace over and against an old covenant of works. Don’t get it twisted friends


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Neither is it a covenant of grace and faith.

It is the covenant of the New Kingdom. The one neither Abraham nor the OT house of Jacob got. A kingdom of grace in sight of the Lamb, and God on the throne.

 

[Sai]

A Covenant is a contract. It requires written documentation. There was a Covenant documented by Moses made with Adam before the fall - the Edenic Covenant.

After the fall Moses documented the Covenant with Adam with provisions concerning life outside of the Garden of Eden.

Moses also documents the Covenant made with Noah with its provisions for life after the flood.

Moses also documented the Covenant made with Abraham and its provisions. Moses documents the Land Covenant and its provisions.

Moses who was not the author of the book of Genesis as he was not an eye witness but merely edited the existing documents into Genesis, was an eye witness to the Law Covenant and he documented its 613 provisions.

The Davidic Covenant is documented in scripture along with its provisions.

And the New Covenant was documented likewise with its provisions.

3 of these documented contracts or covenants were made with man in general while 5 are made with the nation of Israel. Including the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31 made between God and Israel to which we are taught by Paul that the Gentiles have been made overtakers I mean partakes in the spiritual blessings of Israel.

There is no need for a contract between God and man for salvation by grace because scripture clearly points it out that men are saved by grace they faith apart from laws.

 

[Mikey]

Moses who was not the author of the book of Genesis as he was not an eye witness but merely edited the existing documents into Genesis, was an eye witness to the Law Covenant and he documented its 613 provisions.
.

you believe that Moses used existing writings/narritives and compiled them into a single book?

 

[Yeshua1]

you believe that Moses used existing writings/narritives and compiled them into a single book?

The Holy Spirit was there, could He not have revealed what happened to Moses?

 

[George Antonios]

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

Only the Bible never actually says that. Under the law of Moses, salvation was by faith and works, as often stated in scripture.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is NOT of faith: but, The man that DOETH them shall live in them.

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which DOETH those things shall live by them.

And indeed:
Eze 18:9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Psa 106:30 Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.
Psa 106:31 And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

However, in the church age of grace, the works of the law are no more accepted of God as a basis of justification.

Rom 3:21 BUT NOW [i.e. not before] the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets [the law prophesied and typified salvation by grace, but it did not offer salvation by grace];

This is partly due to the fact that New Testament salvation includes elements (like regeneration, adoption, etc) which were not part of salvation under Moses' law, and which elements, now bundled-up with salvation, can never be attained by the works of the law. In the tribulation, and in the millennial kingdom, salvation will once again be obtained as it was under the law of Moses.

I realize this is highly contentious, and it took me a while to digest. Hopefully we can discuss it with scriptures over time.

To be clear, your question is very pertinent and difficult to answer for those who ascribe to the "salvation was always by grace through faith" creed yet also distinguish between a covenant of the law and then a covenant of grace. So what I'm saying is that you are at least trying to be internally consistent.

 

[Yeshua1]

Only the Bible never actually says that. Under the law of Moses, salvation was by faith and works, as often stated in scripture.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is NOT of faith: but, The man that DOETH them shall live in them.

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which DOETH those things shall live by them.

And indeed:
Eze 18:9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Psa 106:30 Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.
Psa 106:31 And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

etc.

However, in the church age of grace, the works of the law are no more accepted of God as a basis of justification.
This is partly due to the fact that New Testament salvation includes elements (like regeneration, adoption, etc) which were not part of salvation under Moses' law, and which elements, now bundled-up with salvation, can never be attained by the works of the law. In the tribulation, and in the millennial kingdom, salvation will once again be obtained as it was under the law of Moses.



I realize this is highly contentious, and it took me a while to digest. Hopefully we can discuss it with scriptures over time.

To be clear, your question is very pertinent and difficult to answer for those who ascribe to the "salvation was always by grace through faith" creed yet also distinguish between a covenant of the law and then a covenant of grace. So what I'm saying is that you are at least trying to be internally consistent.

No one under the Mosaic law was ever justified by keeping that Law, as they were "saved" by placing trust and faith in the promised messiah to come!

 

[George Antonios]

No one under the Mosaic law was ever justified by keeping that Law, as they were "saved" by placing trust and faith in the promised messiah to come!

It would be helpful if you would deal with the scriptures that were provided and that you quote scriptures in turn to support your claim.

 

[Yeshua1]

It would be helpful if you would deal with the scriptures that were provided and that you quote scriptures in turn to support your claim.

Paul stated that NONE shall ever be justified before God by what they do, and that counts for all since Adam!

 

[George Antonios]

Paul stated that NONE shall ever be justified before God by what they do, and that counts for all since Adam!

I quoted Paul's words in my original post.
The "that counts for all since Adam" part is what you added. Paul specifically countered that when he said that the law of Moses was not of faith but of works.

 

[Yeshua1]

I quoted Paul's words in my original post.
The "that counts for all since Adam" part is what you added. Paul specifically countered that when he said that the law of Moses was not of faith but of works.

yes, as in n one have ever or will ever be justified before God bu the Law, or human works!