The Imaginary Covenant of Grace

[Revmitchell]

There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture.


I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.


God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.


If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).


The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

So who is it that says there is only two covenants?

 

[Dave G]

Then how we’re Old Testament saints saved?

The same as the New...
By the grace and mercy of God through His word and trusting in His word.

What does Romans 4 state?

" For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." ( Romans 4:3-5 ).

And what is faith in God and God's word the evidence of?

" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." ( Hebrews 11:1-4 ).

The Old Testament saints were born again the same as the New...
All of God's children must fit this necessary evidence:

" Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." ( John 3:3 ).

Those in the Old Testament did not have to believe in Yeshua in order to be saved

Yet, they all believed that God was their Saviour:

David : " Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation." ( Psalms 38:22 ).
Psalms 51.

Mary: " And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." ( Luke 1:46-47 )

Who is Jesus Christ but God in the flesh, the "personification" of Whom the Old Testament saints trusted in?

 

[Dewey cothran]

that sounds like what NT Wright teaches, (New Perspective on Paul) is that what you believe?

mikey how are you? Greetings from north Carolina. The new perspective regarding paul ? No i dont believe that . I mean sure nt makes some points like we should read pauls writings from a 1st century jewish perspective and that does bring a better sense of what paul was trying to say but the whole debate about the new perspective has taken on a life of its own. Id rather not get into that .so all i was saying is that in judaism there is no covenant of works and you wont find any such teaching in the entire bible thats all i was saying mikey .

 

[Yeshua1]

By Grace. If i understand Yeshua1 position is that the OT saints were saved by the promise of the New Covenant/ Covernant of Grace. In the same way the the OT saints would be saved by Christ's death and resurrection even though it did not happen when they lived and died.

exactly! they placed trust into the promised messiah God said would one day come, and God placed them into His remnant on the basis of that Messiah and Cross yet to come!
Now what I do not fully understand is if they had the Holy Spirit just as we do now, or if God remitted and counted not their sins against them, but were not exactly 'saved" as indwelt by Holy Spirit!

 

[Yeshua1]

my understanding is tthat the two covenants are "Covenant of Works" (CoW) and "Covenant of Grace" (CoG). the CoW only covered the time of Adam before the fall, the covenant of works, was that if Adam was faithful and did not eat the fruit then Adam would have eternal life. After the fall then the CoG was initiated thus only through grace are we saved. (some disagree and argue that the CoG was promised after the fall but initiated at the death/resurrection thus the CoG is the New Covernant.

Some also see there is an eternal Covenant between the Godhead themselves in regards to plan of redemption!

Basically, how one views he CoG will decide if one is Presbyterian or a Baptist, as How new really was the NC?

 

[Yeshua1]

Again this is an oversimplification. Those in the Old Testament did not have to believe in Yeshua in order to be saved. Cornelius was already saved but had not as yet believed in Yeshua. God’s salvation was already by grace they faith apart from works but the content of what one needed to believe in order to get saved changed thru the ages.


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Cornelius had to be born again in order to get saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

Again this is an oversimplification. Those in the Old Testament did not have to believe in Yeshua in order to be saved. Cornelius was already saved but had not as yet believed in Yeshua. God’s salvation was already by grace they faith apart from works but the content of what one needed to believe in order to get saved changed thru the ages.


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they had to trust in and believe that Messiah was coming from God to save them from their sins!

 

[Yeshua1]

The same as the New...
By the grace and mercy of God through His word and trusting in His word.

What does Romans 4 state?

" For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." ( Romans 4:3-5 ).

And what is faith in God and God's word the evidence of?

" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." ( Hebrews 11:1-4 ).

The Old Testament saints were born again the same as the New...
All of God's children must fit this necessary evidence:

" Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." ( John 3:3 ).


Yet, they all believed that God was their Saviour:

David : " Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation." ( Psalms 38:22 ).
Psalms 51.

Mary: " And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." ( Luke 1:46-47 )

Who is Jesus Christ but God in the flesh, the "personification" of Whom the Old Testament saints trusted in?

Always been on the basis of the Cross of Christ, saved by grace alone thru faith alone! The OT saints looked forward to Messiah, and we look back and know him as Jesus!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Sure. Let’s start with what defines a biblical covenant. We can do this by comparing all of the scriptures that deal with them. I’ll be on it soon. Thx


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What is a covenant?
The Hebrew word used in the Old Testament is Bara, which comes from a root word meaning ‘bonds’ or ‘yokes.’ The idea is of two parties binding themselves to perform some mutually agreed action. The Greek word is diatheke, which means a ‘disposition’ or ‘arrangement.’ The puritan John Owen defined a covenant as, ‘A voluntary convention, pact, agreement between distinct persons about the ordering and dispensing of things in their power, to their mutual concern or advantage.’ A simpler definition might be, ‘A mutual agreement, a benefit being assured on the fulfilment of certain conditions.’

There is an example of a covenant in 1 Samuel 20:11-17. Jonathan promises to help David escape from Saul, and David promises to show kindness to Jonathan’s descendants (cf. 2 Samuel 9:1 ). There is an oath and the name of the Lord is invoked (vs 12, 16-17 ). This is an example of a covenant between equals. Sometimes we see covenants between parties where one side is clearly superior to the other. These are called by theologians Suzerainty Covenants.. In such cases, the terms of the covenant are dictated by the stronger side (eg. 1 Kings 20:34 ), and the benefits are therefore likely to accrue to the stronger at the expense of the weaker. It goes without saying that God is always the Superior and He dictates the terms of the covenants into which He enters. However, God’s unmerited love towards sinners means that His covenantal plans bring blessings to those who are without power or strength (Romans 5:8 ).

I believe the various covenants may be listed according to the following groups. This is very much my own idea and I therefore offer it tentatively:-

Two covenants transacted between God and a Covenant or Representative head. These are the so-called Covenant of Works made with Adam, and the Covenant of Grace or Everlasting Covenant made with Christ.

Three covenants of Promise (cf. Ephesians 2:12 ). These are the covenants with Noah, with Abraham and with David. These are covenants with individuals, purely gracious, and having reference to a coming ‘Seed.’ [Some may add one with Adam based on Genesis 3:15]

Two covenants made between God and a people: the Old (or ‘First,’ 'Sinaitic' or ‘Mosaic’) Covenant and the New Covenant. One is made with reference to the law, the other with reference to faith; one with [some of] the physical descendants of Abraham; the other with his spiritual descendants (Galatians 3:7 . The New Covenant is discovered to be nothing else but the Covenant of Grace revealed and realized as the consummation of all the covenants (Colossians 1:26; Hebrews 13:20. cf. Exodus 2:24; Psalms 111:5; Ezekiel 16:60-61; Luke 1:72 ).

 

[Yeshua1]

What is a covenant?
The Hebrew word used in the Old Testament is Bara, which comes from a root word meaning ‘bonds’ or ‘yokes.’ The idea is of two parties binding themselves to perform some mutually agreed action. The Greek word is diatheke, which means a ‘disposition’ or ‘arrangement.’ The puritan John Owen defined a covenant as, ‘A voluntary convention, pact, agreement between distinct persons about the ordering and dispensing of things in their power, to their mutual concern or advantage.’ A simpler definition might be, ‘A mutual agreement, a benefit being assured on the fulfilment of certain conditions.’

There is an example of a covenant in 1 Samuel 20:11-17. Jonathan promises to help David escape from Saul, and David promises to show kindness to Jonathan’s descendants (cf. 2 Samuel 9:1 ). There is an oath and the name of the Lord is invoked (vs 12, 16-17 ). This is an example of a covenant between equals. Sometimes we see covenants between parties where one side is clearly superior to the other. These are called by theologians Suzerainty Covenants.. In such cases, the terms of the covenant are dictated by the stronger side (eg. 1 Kings 20:34 ), and the benefits are therefore likely to accrue to the stronger at the expense of the weaker. It goes without saying that God is always the Superior and He dictates the terms of the covenants into which He enters. However, God’s unmerited love towards sinners means that His covenantal plans bring blessings to those who are without power or strength (Romans 5:8 ).

I believe the various covenants may be listed according to the following groups. This is very much my own idea and I therefore offer it tentatively:-

Two covenants transacted between God and a Covenant or Representative head. These are the so-called Covenant of Works made with Adam, and the Covenant of Grace or Everlasting Covenant made with Christ.

Three covenants of Promise (cf. Ephesians 2:12 ). These are the covenants with Noah, with Abraham and with David. These are covenants with individuals, purely gracious, and having reference to a coming ‘Seed.’ [Some may add one with Adam based on Genesis 3:15]

Two covenants made between God and a people: the Old (or ‘First,’ 'Sinaitic' or ‘Mosaic’) Covenant and the New Covenant. One is made with reference to the law, the other with reference to faith; one with [some of] the physical descendants of Abraham; the other with his spiritual descendants (Galatians 3:7 . The New Covenant is discovered to be nothing else but the Covenant of Grace revealed and realized as the consummation of all the covenants (Colossians 1:26; Hebrews 13:20. cf. Exodus 2:24; Psalms 111:5; Ezekiel 16:60-61; Luke 1:72 ).

was there a third eternal one between the Godhead themselves?

 

[Reformed1689]

@Sai I do not subscribe to full Covenant Theology, just as I do not subscribe to full on dispensationalism. However, if you are going to attack Covenant Theology you should at least correctly present their arguments.

 

[Sai]

What is a covenant?
The Hebrew word used in the Old Testament is Bara, which comes from a root word meaning ‘bonds’ or ‘yokes.’ The idea is of two parties binding themselves to perform some mutually agreed action. The Greek word is diatheke, which means a ‘disposition’ or ‘arrangement.’ The puritan John Owen defined a covenant as, ‘A voluntary convention, pact, agreement between distinct persons about the ordering and dispensing of things in their power, to their mutual concern or advantage.’ A simpler definition might be, ‘A mutual agreement, a benefit being assured on the fulfilment of certain conditions.’

There is an example of a covenant in 1 Samuel 20:11-17. Jonathan promises to help David escape from Saul, and David promises to show kindness to Jonathan’s descendants (cf. 2 Samuel 9:1 ). There is an oath and the name of the Lord is invoked (vs 12, 16-17 ). This is an example of a covenant between equals. Sometimes we see covenants between parties where one side is clearly superior to the other. These are called by theologians Suzerainty Covenants.. In such cases, the terms of the covenant are dictated by the stronger side (eg. 1 Kings 20:34 ), and the benefits are therefore likely to accrue to the stronger at the expense of the weaker. It goes without saying that God is always the Superior and He dictates the terms of the covenants into which He enters. However, God’s unmerited love towards sinners means that His covenantal plans bring blessings to those who are without power or strength (Romans 5:8 ).

I believe the various covenants may be listed according to the following groups. This is very much my own idea and I therefore offer it tentatively:-

Two covenants transacted between God and a Covenant or Representative head. These are the so-called Covenant of Works made with Adam, and the Covenant of Grace or Everlasting Covenant made with Christ.

Three covenants of Promise (cf. Ephesians 2:12 ). These are the covenants with Noah, with Abraham and with David. These are covenants with individuals, purely gracious, and having reference to a coming ‘Seed.’ [Some may add one with Adam based on Genesis 3:15]

Two covenants made between God and a people: the Old (or ‘First,’ 'Sinaitic' or ‘Mosaic’) Covenant and the New Covenant. One is made with reference to the law, the other with reference to faith; one with [some of] the physical descendants of Abraham; the other with his spiritual descendants (Galatians 3:7 . The New Covenant is discovered to be nothing else but the Covenant of Grace revealed and realized as the consummation of all the covenants (Colossians 1:26; Hebrews 13:20. cf. Exodus 2:24; Psalms 111:5; Ezekiel 16:60-61; Luke 1:72 ).

Noah did not act as a representative head for mankind? Hmm. That betokened unworthy scholarship.


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[Sai]

David knew he was saved by grace. Yet he said that the Law of Moses was his delight and that he meditated on it day and night.


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[Sai]

The Mosaic Law was the Old Covenant between God and Israel, new Covenant now one between god and all redeemed!

Wrong


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[Sai]

exactly! they placed trust into the promised messiah God said would one day come, and God placed them into His remnant on the basis of that Messiah and Cross yet to come!
Now what I do not fully understand is if they had the Holy Spirit just as we do now, or if God remitted and counted not their sins against them, but were not exactly 'saved" as indwelt by Holy Spirit!

Wrong. The Old Testament believers did not have that because it was not until Isaiah that it was revealed that Messiah had to die for sin. Those before had to believe in what had been revealed up to that point in time. For Israel, they had to believe that God chose them and that the Law of Moses was to be followed as their rule of life.


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[Sai]

Always been on the basis of the Cross of Christ, saved by grace alone thru faith alone! The OT saints looked forward to Messiah, and we look back and know him as Jesus!

That is a blanket oversimplification. The disciples had salvation before they knew Messiah was going to die. This is why Jesus explained to them that they had already had a bath which represents salvation forgiveness (except for Judas who hadn’t taken a bath, he never believed, he was not regenerated). Mary and Joseph were both born again before Christ was born. Yet they did not know he would die for their sins. Noah has no idea that the Messiah would be put to death as a substitute. They had to believe that which had been revealed up to their time by God as true and on the basis of believing God’s word they obtained new birth.


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[Sai]

Cornelius had to be born again in order to get saved!

He already was


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[Mikey]

mikey how are you? Greetings from north Carolina. The new perspective regarding paul ? No i dont believe that . I mean sure nt makes some points like we should read pauls writings from a 1st century jewish perspective and that does bring a better sense of what paul was trying to say but the whole debate about the new perspective has taken on a life of its own. Id rather not get into that .so all i was saying is that in judaism there is no covenant of works and you wont find any such teaching in the entire bible thats all i was saying mikey .

Hey,

I was just clarifying what you said, as jews never believed in works salvation and there was not covenant of works are not the same thing. Thanks for claifying, and indeed NPP is complicated.

 

[Dewey cothran]

Does it matter? Those saved in the OT ended up just where they were supposed to be and when. All dead in Christ are waiting for the rapture, that includes all OT saints.[/QU

He

Hey,

I was just clarifying what you said, as jews never believed in works salvation and there was not covenant of works are not the same thing. Thanks for claifying, and indeed NPP is complicated.

mikey the problem is that one of the biggest loads of cow manure is when evangelicals say that jews believe you must work your way to heaven thats a lie. But thats where this problem got started actually it goes back to the catholic church but its a total fiction and we need to get rid of that you say though that saying one is not saying the other but the only way they would believe that there was a covenant of works would be that they believed that god revealed this convenant to them and he did not.Ill let you have the last word im a bit tired .

 

[timtofly]

That is a blanket oversimplification. The disciples had salvation before they knew Messiah was going to die. This is why Jesus explained to them that they had already had a bath which represents salvation forgiveness (except for Judas who hadn’t taken a bath, he never believed, he was not regenerated). Mary and Joseph were both born again before Christ was born. Yet they did not know he would die for their sins. Noah has no idea that the Messiah would be put to death as a substitute. They had to believe that which had been revealed up to their time by God as true and on the basis of believing God’s word they obtained new birth.


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So Noah's obedience was or was not counted as Faith? He went through all 100 years, survived the Flood and God still did not reveal to him that his obedience was considered faith? God did reveal to Noah, what Jesus would do. Because Noah's faith and obedience to build an Ark, could have been given to another human. Noah was not about to let another human do the task, God let him do. Noah knew the world would be destroyed and only 8 humans would start the world over, and that God Himself would come to earth as one of Noah's descendants. Noah obeyed and trusted (had faith) for 100 years because until the Flood came and by that sight. Noah knew God would Himself come and save the world from Adam's disobedience that brought sin into the world. Noah at the end, just going to hell anyways, does not make sense.