The Just shall live by Faith !

[savedbymercy]

That the Just shall live by Faith is a credit to the Saving Work of Christ. You see, everyone Christ died for, has been declared Righteous or Just by God, for the Resurrection proves that Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

Now, all whom Christ Justified by His Blood ONLY as Per Rom 5:9

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Everyone of them, by His Resurrection they shall be begotten again unto a Lively Hope 1 Pet 1:3

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Now Faith is born out of this Lively Hope, for what is Faith but the Heb 11:1

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So, everyone Christ died for, He also rose for, and through His Resurrection from the Dead, they are born again and Hope and Faith Result.

So, Scripture says, The Just[made so by Christ's Blood] shall live by Faith !

No True Gospel preacher is ignorant of this Truth or would deny it !

 

[The Biblicist]

That the Just shall live by Faith is a credit to the Saving Work of Christ. You see, everyone Christ died for, has been declared Righteous or Just by God, for the Resurrection proves that Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

This is a total perversion of the immediate context - JERKED out of context.

For example, take Romans 4:25 and place it back in its context:

23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


Verse 23-24 is talking about IMPUTED righteousness, not IMPARTED righteousness and verse 24 conditions on it being imputed to "US" on the condition "IF we believe on him."

It has not been imputed to "us" before faith but only upon faith is the clear teaching of verses 23-24 and the conclusion drawn in Romans 5:1 "THEREFORE being justified BY FAITH."

Verse 25 states the GROUNDS or BASIS upon which imputation BY FAITH can be received.

The whole Biblical context beginning in Romans 3:25-5:1 is about IMPUTED righteousness received by faith "in his blood" as the basis for imputation.

Now, all whom Christ Justified by His Blood ONLY as Per Rom 5:9

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The meaning of the above statement is spelled out right from the beginning where Paul introduces the subject of justification in Romans 3:25

Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,

From this point forward it is about justification BY FAITH in His blood. He is not teaching the heretical doctrine that the blood of Christ ALREADY justified us by His blood but as Paul applies his teaching and explicitly says:

Rom. 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe....Therefore BEING JUSTIFIED by faith


The problem is that SBM has never been trained in Biblical exegesis or Biblical expository and it abundantly shows. He simply has no place to go but to repeat HIS OPINIONS as he is incapable of doing exposition of Scripture.

 

[percho]

perc



No, because that would be by the Obedience of Two, not One. Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Think it this way.

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Or as YLT puts it: he breathed out the spirit.

That was the moment of obedience of faith. Three days and three nights after this God the Father by his Spirit raised Jesus his Son from the dead giving Jesus the promise of the Holy Spirit. When God calls one, the one called is given the gift of the Holy Spirit and the righteousness of God is imputed to that one called. Therefore it was from that moment of the obedience of faith that in the future those called by God would be declared righteous and or justified.

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith?

 

[savedbymercy]

Think it this way.

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Or as YLT puts it: he breathed out the spirit.

That was the moment of obedience of faith. Three days and three nights after this God the Father by his Spirit raised Jesus his Son from the dead giving Jesus the promise of the Holy Spirit. When God calls one, the one called is given the gift of the Holy Spirit and the righteousness of God is imputed to that one called. Therefore it was from that moment of the obedience of faith that in the future those called by God would be declared righteous and or justified.

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith?

Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[savedbymercy]

This is a total perversion of the immediate context - JERKED out of context.

For example, take Romans 4:25 and place it back in its context:

23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


Verse 23-24 is talking about IMPUTED righteousness, not IMPARTED righteousness and verse 24 conditions on it being imputed to "US" on the condition "IF we believe on him."

It has not been imputed to "us" before faith but only upon faith is the clear teaching of verses 23-24 and the conclusion drawn in Romans 5:1 "THEREFORE being justified BY FAITH."

Verse 25 states the GROUNDS or BASIS upon which imputation BY FAITH can be received.

The whole Biblical context beginning in Romans 3:25-5:1 is about IMPUTED righteousness received by faith "in his blood" as the basis for imputation.




The meaning of the above statement is spelled out right from the beginning where Paul introduces the subject of justification in Romans 3:25

Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,

From this point forward it is about justification BY FAITH in His blood. He is not teaching the heretical doctrine that the blood of Christ ALREADY justified us by His blood but as Paul applies his teaching and explicitly says:

Rom. 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe....Therefore BEING JUSTIFIED by faith


The problem is that SBM has never been trained in Biblical exegesis or Biblical expository and it abundantly shows. He simply has no place to go but to repeat HIS OPINIONS as he is incapable of doing exposition of Scripture.

That the Just shall live by Faith is a credit to the Saving Work of Christ. You see, everyone Christ died for, has been declared Righteous or Just by God, for the Resurrection proves that Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

Now, all whom Christ Justified by His Blood ONLY as Per Rom 5:9

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Everyone of them, by His Resurrection they shall be begotten again unto a Lively Hope 1 Pet 1:3

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Now Faith is born out of this Lively Hope, for what is Faith but the Heb 11:1

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So, everyone Christ died for, He also rose for, and through His Resurrection from the Dead, they are born again and Hope and Faith Result.

So, Scripture says, The Just[made so by Christ's Blood] shall live by Faith !

No True Gospel preacher is ignorant of this Truth or would deny it !

 

[percho]

Romans 3:24-5:1 has been talking about IMPUTED not imparted righteousness. Romans 5:2 asserts our LEGAL STANDING due to this IMPUTED righteousness is secure and Romans 5:3-20 provides a logical argument why this LEGAL STANDING cannot be overthrown.

1. Tribulation does not overthrow it but makes it more firm - vv. 3-5
2. God's unconditional love will not allow it to be overthrown - vv. 6-9
3. The Representative Work of One man will not allow it to be overthrown - vv. 10-20

Verse 17 and verse 19 prove that what Christ did was for His elect and they "shall be" made righteous by imputation when they "receive" it (v. 17) through faith as just previously described in great detail in Romans 3:24-5:1.



Precisely! You were made righteous by IMPUTATION at the point of faith in the gospel which is a work of God (Jn. 6:44-45; 64-65).



Jesus is the "author" of our faith in Him (Heb. 12:2) and He authors it by a creative act whereby we are given a NEW heart - a believing heart. This creative act is likened unto Genesis 1:3 when God spoke light into existence by His Word (2 Cor. 4:6). Faith is produced by the "command" of God or the "word" (Gr. Rhema) of God (Rom. 10:13).

There is no such thing as a seeing heart that is not seeing or a hearing ear that is not hearing any more than there is such a thing as an unregenerated beleiver or regenerated unbeliever. Regeneration and conversion are simply two sides of the same coin and where there is one there is the other.




I will take that as a compliment:thumbsup:

As it was meant.

I know no Greek however I do not believe the word our is in Hebrews 12:2
I would love for someone who really knows Greek to tell me how far off this understanding would be.

Looking into the author/originator and perfecter/maturer of the faith, Jesus.
Or maybe even
Looking into the faith of the author/originator and perfecter/maturer Jesus.

As I said I know no Greek but I do not believe "our" is there.

Now that being said, let me ask: I agree with you God gives us a new heart; Does that new heart come along with the Holy Spirit when we are given the Holy Spirit?

We both agree that we receive the promise of the Holy Spirit through faith.
We disagree as to who's faith. You say, our faith in, and I say, the faith of Jesus.

Gal. 3:23 we were kept under the law,(our schoolmaster) shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Paul begins that statement by saying this was before the faith came.

Whatever faith it was by which we received the Holy Spirit did not exist at this time or we did not have access to it. Jesus himself could not at this time have given the Holy Spirit to anyone at this time. Why? Why could Jesus the only begotten of the Father not able to give anyone the Holy Spirit at this time?
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

What did the going away of Jesus have to do with us receiving the Holy Spirit?

 

[percho]

Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Where am I saying more than one?

You are paranoid. Actually I am agreeing with you more or less. The obedience of Jesus unto death was the faith.

It makes no difference what we believe. If we are sheep, God will call us in his due time, give us the Holy Spirit, impute the righteousness of God to us and we will believe and follow him with a new heart.

Paul was a man ignorant in unbelief, was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: He heard Stephen preach. Did nothing for Paul. He held their coats while they stoned Stephen. A sheep who had not yet been called.

However people do need to hear of faith by which God will build the kingdom of God on the earth. Pray thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[savedbymercy]

Where am I saying more than one?

You are paranoid. Actually I am agreeing with you more or less. The obedience of Jesus unto death was the faith.

It makes no difference what we believe. If we are sheep, God will call us in his due time, give us the Holy Spirit, impute the righteousness of God to us and we will believe and follow him with a new heart.

Paul was a man ignorant in unbelief, was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: He heard Stephen preach. Did nothing for Paul. He held their coats while they stoned Stephen. A sheep who had not yet been called.

However people do need to hear of faith by which God will build the kingdom of God on the earth. Pray thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Ok then, If you agree with me, do you believe that everyone without exception that Christ died for shall be eternally saved ? And you know I am not speaking of universalism either, because many Christ never knew Matt 7:23 !

This will tell if you believe what The Bible Teaches and what I believe !

It makes no difference what we believe.

That is a lie, because until one gives evidence of belief of Truth, there is no basis of Fellowship. Fellowship is based upon knowing the Truth !

3 Jn 1:3

For I rejoiced greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth.

The Truth of the Gospel is meant ! Gal 2:5

To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Paul was a man ignorant in unbelief, was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: He heard Stephen preach. Did nothing for Paul. He held their coats while they stoned Stephen. A sheep who had not yet been called.

Yes, and the other Apostles would have had nothing to do with him unless they perceived later that he indeed now believe the Truth. For it was not until they heard his Testimony of the Gospel that they did extend him the right hand of fellowship !

Gal 2:7-9

7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

You see, until the Sheep are converted unto the Truth, they remain in unbelief and should be counted as so.

If a person is an elect, who will eventually believe the gospel 5 years down the line in God's appointed time, and until then they are practicing a false religion, A Believer has no basis to fellowship with them because they will be converted to the Truth fives years away ! That is crazy and foolish.

So, I find your statement here "It makes no difference what we believe" disgraceful to the Truth of God !

God will call us in his due time, give us the Holy Spirit, impute the righteousness of God to us and we will believe and follow him with a new heart.

Wrong order. The First thing is that all for whom Christ died have already had His Righteousness imputed to them, in fact that is the basis for the other blessings that follow, the New Birth and New Heart and the call to follow Him..

 

[The Biblicist]

That the Just shall live by Faith is a credit to the Saving Work of Christ. You see, everyone Christ died for, has been declared Righteous or Just by God, for the Resurrection proves that Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

Now, all whom Christ Justified by His Blood ONLY as Per Rom 5:9

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Everyone of them, by His Resurrection they shall be begotten again unto a Lively Hope 1 Pet 1:3

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Now Faith is born out of this Lively Hope, for what is Faith but the Heb 11:1

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So, everyone Christ died for, He also rose for, and through His Resurrection from the Dead, they are born again and Hope and Faith Result.

So, Scripture says, The Just[made so by Christ's Blood] shall live by Faith !

No True Gospel preacher is ignorant of this Truth or would deny it !

I have never denied substitutionary and definite atonement. That has never been my beef with you and your intepretation of Romans 4:25. We are in agreement on that point.

My disagreement is the time and personal application of justification of the elect. They were not justified in regard to their actual person before the world began or when Christ died but with the work of the Holy Spirit in time and space.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

I have never denied substitutionary and definite atonement

Actually you do. If you do not accept that Rom 4:25 is teaching that all for whom Christ, bare their sins, died in their stead [substitute], resulted in their Justification before God, as His Resurrection gives evidence of, then you do deny it !

There is no way you can get around it !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



Actually you do. If you do not accept that Rom 4:25 is teaching that all for whom Christ, bare their sins, died in their stead [substitute], resulted in their Justification before God, as His Resurrection gives evidence of, then you do deny it !

There is no way you can get around it !

You do not distinguish between the atonement provision versus the atonement application? The Son was assigned the former but the Spirit was assigned the latter.

You want to usurp the office and assigned covenant work of the Holy Spirit and assign it to and thus confuse it with the assigned covenant work of the Son and Father.

It was never the assigned covenant work of the Son to choose the elect (The Father's Work) or to apply the atonement to the elect (The Spirit's works).

However, you are demanding that three Persons and their individual assigned covenant works were actually purposed as well as implemented in eternity past before the world began. You are demanding that the Son assumed and thus usurped the work of the Spirit at the time of the cross.

In your interpretation of Romans 3:25 you are saying that applied atonement (justification) occurred at time of Christ's death and resurrection. Prior to this you were saying that applied justification" occurred even prior to Christ's death and resurrection but actually occurred before the world began.

You are incapable of distinguishing between things that differ and between the assigned covenant works of the Persons of the Triune God.

Before the world began God purposed that the Son provide the atonement and the Spirit apply the Atonement while the Father chose the elect to be atoned. However, God's Purpose before the world began is NOT God's implementation of that purpose ("I have purposed it, I WILL DO it" - Isa. 46:11).

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

You do not distinguish between the atonement provision versus the atonement application?

Thats a false gospel ! Justification before God is by Christ's Blood in the Mind of God ! That is something solely between The Father and The Son.

Now the beneficiaries will have it revealed to them Later what those Transactions were which only concerned the Father and the Son.

When Christ rose from the Dead, after having died in the place of those He died for, to show that God the Father was propitiated, that His law and Justice satisfied on their behalf, they whom Christ died for, being Justified in His sight because of His Blood, Christ rose from the dead.

Christ's Resurrection is proof that all whom He died are Justified before God. This evidence was many centuries before many who were vindicated had been born. You deny that ! Since you deny that, you deny the substitutionary death of Christ and its accomplishment of Justification before God, for all He Died for !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



Justification before God is by Christ's Blood in the Mind of God ! That is something solely between The Father and The Son.

In the Father's mind Christ purchased the elect by His blood but in the Father's mind Christ did not apply that purchase to the elect as that is not the covenant work of the Son but the covenant work of the Spirit.

Now the beneficiaries will have it revealed to them Later what those Transactions were which only concerned the Father and the Son.

What is revealed to them is the Son of God as declared in the gospel and that is the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit CREATES them in Christ by giving them a new BELIEVING heart whereby they are justified by faith in the revealed gospel - this is all the work of God (Jn. 6:29; 44-45/64-65). They are justified BY FAITH at the point of this REVELATION of Christ and the immediate proof is they have "peace with God" (Rom. 5:1).

When Christ rose from the Dead, after having died in the place of those He died for, to show that God the Father was propitiated, that His law and Justice satisfied on their behalf, they whom Christ died for, being Justified in His sight because of His Blood, Christ rose from the dead.

What Christ obtained, finished, completed was their purchased price WHICH justified the work of the Holy Spirit in taking possession of the elect. God chose them "to" salvation "THROUGH" the sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thes. 2:13). However, he also chose the instrumental means for their justification "before God" which was "AND beleif of the truth" and thus THEY WERE EXPERIENTIALLY JUSTIFIED IN TIME AND SPACE "by faith in his blood" (Rom. 3;25).

Christ's atonement justified the work of the Spirit but faith in his blood justifies the elect "before God" and obtains experiential "peace with God."

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

In the Father's mind Christ purchased the elect by His blood but in the Father's mind Christ did not apply that purchase to the elect as that is not the covenant work of the Son but the covenant work of the Spirit.

The work of Christ alone, Justified the Elect before the Mind of God ! You deny this, you deny the Gospel and the Value of His Work's Accomplishment before God !

When Christ rose from the Dead, it was evidence that Christ's Death Justified all those Christ died for Rom 4:25

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



The work of Christ alone, Justified the Elect before the Mind of God !

The work of Christ alone justified the work of the Holy Spirit in taking possession of the elect and the Father electing them to salvation. The covenant work of Christ cannot be isolated from the covenant works of the Father and the Spirit and be viewed as the whole of salvation "in and of itself." That is absurd as that kind of view denies that either the Father or the Spirit's works were necessary or essential in the purpose of salvation. The Father's work gives the atonement design while the Spirit's work gives the atonement application in time and space. The Father provided the limited design while the Spirit provided the limited application. The son provided the basis that justified both.

However, salvation cannot be limited to the "mind of God" as that is no salvation at all because "I have purposed it; I WILL DO it" is necessary as where there is no implementation of a purpose there is no purpose worthy of the "mind of God."

You deny this, you deny the Gospel and the Value of His Work's Accomplishment before God !

By invalidating the work of the Holy Spirit you are actually preaching "another gospel" and simply do not realize it as the work of the Holy Spirit in redemption is just as necessary and equal to the work of either the Father and the Son as they are all INTERDEPENDENT and not any individual one save "in and of itself."

When Christ rose from the Dead, it was evidence that Christ's Death Justified all those Christ died for Rom 4:25

Romans 4:25 in context speaks of no such thing. The only justification in context is the one that is a direct result of faith in the gospel by the elect. It is the death and resurrection of Christ that validate justification by faith in Christ. Romans 4:24 makes this so clear to the reader that you must intentionally close your eyes or be so intent upon making the text mean what you want to ignore it. And if you are blinded to verse 24 then Romans 5:1 condemns your intepretation. Hence, the immediate context, verse before and verse after restricts the interpretation of verse 25 to justification BY FAITH in death and resurrection, in his blood;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Pauls words "for our justification" in verse 25 are defined by verse 24 and 5:1 to be for our "justification" BY FAITH, meaning that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the content of the gospel and thus the OBJECT of our faith which justifies us before God.

 

[savedbymercy]

The bib

The work of Christ alone justified the work of the Holy Spirit in taking possession of the elect and the Father electing them to salvation.

The Work of Christ alone Justified the Elect before God. The Holy Spirit did not die for the Elect, but Christ did ! Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[The Biblicist]

The bib



The Work of Christ alone Justified the Elect before God. The Holy Spirit did not die for the Elect, but Christ did ! Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

I never said that the Father or the Spirit died for the elect! I said, the death of Christ cannot stand alone as it is the work of the Father that designed and thus limited salvation to the elect rather than the work of Christ. He simply died "for" what the Father designed and limited it to. I never said the Holy Spirit died for the elect but what I said is the death of Christ cannot save "in and of itself" as salvation requires an object which the Father alone determined and it requires application which the Spirit alone is responsible for. Christ's death determined neither and thus "in and of itself" it saves no one as "in and of itself" it does not determine or apply salvation.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

I never said that the Father or the Spirit died for the elect!

God Justify's the Elect before Himself is based upon Christ's dying for them, and not the subsequent work of the Holy Spirit !

The elect are made Righteous [or Just] by the Obedience of One ! Jesus Christ, not the Holy Spirit's Obedience, not the father's obedience. !

Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Thats Justification right there !

Vs 18 makes it clear also :

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



God Justify's the Elect before Himself is based upon Christ's dying for them, and not the subsequent work of the Holy Spirit !

The elect are made Righteous [or Just] by the Obedience of One ! Jesus Christ, not the Holy Spirit's Obedience, not the father's obedience. !

Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Thats Justification right there !

Vs 18 makes it clear also :

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

You just don't get it do you? The work of Christ NEVER determined the object of salvation or the application of salvation. The Father determined the object of salvation - the elect. The atonement was "for" what the Father determined but the atonement itsself did not determine who was to be saved or when they were to be saved. Who and When are the respective works of the Father and the Spirit.

When you say the work of the Son saves "in and of itself" you are then asserting that the work of the Son both determined WHO would be saved and WHEN they would be saved and it did not!

Hence, the work of the Son does not save "in and of itself" but it is absolutely dependent upon the design of the Father and the application of the Spirit.

With your view you just as well join the "Jesus Only" United Pentecostal Church.

 

[percho]

Ok then, If you agree with me, do you believe that everyone without exception that Christ died for shall be eternally saved ? And you know I am not speaking of universalism either, because many Christ never knew Matt 7:23 !

This will tell if you believe what The Bible Teaches and what I believe !



That is a lie, because until one gives evidence of belief of Truth, there is no basis of Fellowship. Fellowship is based upon knowing the Truth !

3 Jn 1:3

For I rejoiced greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth.

The Truth of the Gospel is meant ! Gal 2:5

To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.



Yes, and the other Apostles would have had nothing to do with him unless they perceived later that he indeed now believe the Truth. For it was not until they heard his Testimony of the Gospel that they did extend him the right hand of fellowship !

Gal 2:7-9

7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

You see, until the Sheep are converted unto the Truth, they remain in unbelief and should be counted as so.

If a person is an elect, who will eventually believe the gospel 5 years down the line in God's appointed time, and until then they are practicing a false religion, A Believer has no basis to fellowship with them because they will be converted to the Truth fives years away ! That is crazy and foolish.

So, I find your statement here "It makes no difference what we believe" disgraceful to the Truth of God !



Wrong order. The First thing is that all for whom Christ died have already had His Righteousness imputed to them, in fact that is the basis for the other blessings that follow, the New Birth and New Heart and the call to follow Him..

When I said it makes no difference, I meant between God and man for God knows his sheep and the heart, however between fellow believers it does make a difference what we believe for by their fruit ye shall know them. Actually that is being obedient to the command of Jesus, to love one another.

I am sure of one thing. I do not have a clue as to who will God intends to elect five years down the road nor five minutes down the road.