Protestant
Well-Known Member
Yet another pertinent biblical question avoided by literalist interpreter DHK.
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The Many Insurmountable Difficulties of Futurism: 144,000 Jewish Male Virgins
- Thread starter Protestant
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Yet another pertinent biblical question avoided by literalist interpreter DHK.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
How is it that people and the Word of God can work through some, but not all spiritually dead people?
And how is it you awoke from spiritual death, while most others do not.
What was it that made you differ?
Was the difference found in a special quality of yours, or was it that the Holy Spirit worked a work in you which He did not work in others?
I have answered all your questions and I have asked you some that you have not answered. Now if you fail to see or do not understand the answer the fault does not lie with me.
Your questions, once again were:
(1) If the Holy Spirit-filled Church of believers is the Restrainer, why would Paul call the Church ‘he’ when the Church is a ‘she,’ a feminine noun consistent with the teaching that the Church is the Bride of Christ?
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
I answered this already. Why don't you read what I said?
"The restrainer" is the Holy Spirit, who in scripture is referred to as "he."
"He" abides within the lives of believers. HE does not work in a vacuum.
Remember that for the next time you ask.
Next:
(2) If the Holy Spirit-filled Church of believers is the Restrainer, why would Paul not plainly state as much? He uses the noun, ‘church,’ in chapter 1 verse 1:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Why would not Paul plainly say as much? A most ridiculous question!
Why does not Paul simply address you by name and answer all your questions in an epistle with your name on it; after all did not the Lord choose you before the foundation of the earth?
Why did not Paul give a clear statement of the "trinity" and use the word "trinity" for us?
Why, even the word "Christology" is not found in the Bible, and yet we study about Christ, how about that!!
I tell you what. Why don't you get on your knees and ask the Holy Spirit why He didn't inspire the apostles to write the Bible the way you wanted it to be written and not the way that, HE, God the Holy Spirit actually wrote it. I think that is a better idea.
Next:
(3) If the Holy Spirit-filled Church of believers is the Restrainer which Paul had previously taught there would be no need for the Thessalonians to be concerned that the Man of Sin was already revealed.
They were obviously still present on Earth, not having been raptured, therefore the Man of Sin was still presently being restrained and could not be revealed.
Was there not one believer in that church who was not cognizant of that simple fact?
Or did they all have Alzheimer's
--Are you really serious? What is your question here? Do you even have one that makes any sense?
First, he is speaking of a future event.
Second, he is warning if false teachers.
Look at the scripture:
[FONT="]2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,[/FONT] (WEB)
Let no one deceive you Protestant. Unless that apostasy comes first none of these other things will happen (that I am going to tell you about).
I use the Bible. Who do you use? Charles Taze Russell? Joseph Smith?
The Word of God documents my beliefs. That is sufficient. You can't refute it. Therefore you want me to back up my work when I don't have to. It is backed up the Holy Spirit Himself, the author of the Word of God. He is the greatest authority that one can have. He is irrefutable. And you haven't been able to refute what I have said.
The only answer you have come back with is mockery. Sad!
Yes it is. And everyone is wondering Protestant.
Has God truly done a work of grace in your heart? If so how and when?
Or, has he just called you here to ask foolish questions?
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Here is one of your basic errors. You are like another poster on this board with whom I have debated the subject of dispensationalism. His only defense is that I am a follower of Darby which he repeatedly brings up over and over again. I have never read Darby. There are a variety of dispensationalists and they don't all believe the same thing. We have soul liberty that within a certain framework to believe differently. Some people don't understand that concept.
It would be like me using your acronym, Protestant. The most vocal Protestant IMO, was Luther. Therefore, you must be a follower of the teachings of Luther and everything Luther believed is what you believe because, after all, you are "Protestant."
That is the logic of some here. And it is your logic that I must believe the 144,000 are evangelists just because some of the others futurists do. There is soul liberty here. Search the Scriptures. Where does it say they become evangelists? It doesn't.
In fact, in 14:3,4 they are the firstfruits of those that are redeemed, meaning they are the first ones in the Tribulation that are saved. That works against that theory. There are no unsaved evangelists.
Darby and Luther have nothing to do with the questions raised. I suggest you stay on point, difficult as that may be.
You have authoritatively declared ‘in error’ the Futurists who believe the Holy Spirit to be the ‘Restrainer’, as well as those who believe the 144,000 to be Jewish evangelists.
Rather than take your word as sufficient, I have requested you name a few other ‘scholars,’ such as yourself, who agree with you.
Thus far, no names with citations are forthcoming.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
No, I ‘ain’t.’
I am still waiting for your literalist interpretation of the first vision of Jesus Christ which sets the tone and method of interpretation for the rest of the Revelation.
I also await your literalist explanation as to why the Lord needs 144,000 virgins.
I await your explanation as to how you awoke from spiritual death to love the light rather than the darkness.
And then there is the issue of your ‘scholarly’ authorities upon whom you hang your Futurist hat.
Where are they?
Your solo opinion is not good enough.
My solo opinion is not good enough.
This is why I have corroborated my witness with the witness of the ancient Waldenses, Albigenses, Huguenots, Reformers, Puritans, Baptists, martyrs or not, as well as Christians up until this present day.
I have set forth several proofs which are irrefutable due to their historical concurrence with prophetic Scripture.
It is only by closing one’s eyes and ears that it is possible to deny the obvious.
Did the Holy Spirit lead all the above witnesses into believing a lie, but led DHK into the truth?
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Protestant :
How is it that people and the Word of God can work through some, but not all spiritually dead people?
And how is it you awoke from spiritual death, while most others do not.
What was it that made you differ?
Was the difference found in a special quality of yours, or was it that the Holy Spirit worked a work in you which He did not work in others?
Is it foolish to ask what made you to differ from other unbelievers who remain dead in their sins?
Why is that a foolish question?
Are we not admonished to give an answer to every man who asks the reason for the hope that is within us?
How is it that people and the Word of God can work through some, but not all spiritually dead people?
And how is it you awoke from spiritual death, while most others do not.
What was it that made you differ?
Was the difference found in a special quality of yours, or was it that the Holy Spirit worked a work in you which He did not work in others?
Is it foolish to ask what made you to differ from other unbelievers who remain dead in their sins?
Why is that a foolish question?
Are we not admonished to give an answer to every man who asks the reason for the hope that is within us?
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Thank you. You admit the ‘Restrainer’ is the Holy Spirit of whom Paul speaks.
This has been my consistent position as to the classic Futurist teaching.
You have now reversed your previous position to agree with me.
That being the case, why then does Paul not refer to the Holy Spirit by name since he does so in verse 13. Why now so secretive?
Does it not behoove a teacher to clear up misunderstandings as plainly and succinctly as possible?
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Furthermore, if the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of whom Paul speaks, why then does he call Him a ‘what’? The Spirit is a person – a ‘who’ – not a thing. He is not a ‘what.’
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Does the reader discern the Futurist quandary?
It matters not if they regard the Restrainer to be the Church or the Holy Spirit.
Neither corroborates the teaching of 2 Thess. 2.
Moreover, to prove the lack of restraint via the Church against evil, Jesus declares:
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The shortening of time is that which restrains the evil done to those who would be saved.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
I am quoting DHK from a Baptist Only thread entitled ‘Biblical Tension.’
He rightly understands the need for preaching Jesus as the means God has ordained to bring sinners to saving knowledge of Christ.
However, once again an insurmountable difficulty arises.
Classic Futurist teaching mandates all true Christians worldwide must be raptured pre-trib or mid-trib.
(The post-tribbers are few and far between.)
DHK denies the 144,000 are evangelists.
The vast majority of Futurists believe they are.
If they are not evangelists, who, pray tell, is evangelizing the world since Christians are no longer on Earth and multitudes too great to number are being saved?
And if they are evangelists, who, pray tell, evangelized them since Christians are no longer on Earth?
Someone had to preach Jesus to the world.
But before preachers can be raised up, they, in turn, must be preached to.
Yet all the true preachers have disappeared in the rapture.
Perhaps it is the false preachers left behind who are preaching Jesus with great success.
Or perhaps the true Christian Church was never raptured in the first place, thereby continuing to preach the true Gospel through the reign of Antichrist until the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ.
Why is there even a need for evangelists in the "Day of God's Wrath?"
In the "Time of Jacob's Trouble?"
At a time when God "treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."
At a time when the most power, most elite, of the world will be:
"saying[FONT="] to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:[/FONT]"
--What need will there be on any evangelists during this time?
Does it make sense to you now?
Who is this vast majority? Hal Lindsey? some other novelists and film makers? Did you include Mel Gibson of The Passion? Why not?
Look what I posted above. Please tell me why, in this seven year period of God's grace, do you think the world needs to be evangelized. No one will be saved except the remnant of Jews at then end when Christ comes for them.
Why will no one be saved? Because God says so! They are all deceived.
[FONT="]2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.[/FONT]
--All of them! They have rejected the truth! They cannot be saved!
[FONT="]2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:[/FONT]
--God has sent them a delusion. The have believed a lie. What lie do they believe? They believe that the Antichrist is God, and therefore they will all be damned.
No one will be saved. There is no need for evangelists. They are all under God's wrath.
The 144,000 are not evangelists.
Not in The Tribulation!
There will be no preachers of the Word of God in the Tribulation.
That is right. The Tribulation is a seven year period of God's wrath. Have you got that yet.
No one is preaching Jesus. Where do you get that from?
You don't listen. Why are posting here in the first place?
I have always said that it is the Holy Spirit as he dwells in believers.
I deny it is the Holy Spirit completely for that would deny the omnipresence of God. Do you see the difference? I have tried to explain that to you many times. God does not work in a vacuum.
When you get to heaven you can ask him why he wrote what he wrote. Or you can pray to God now, or you can complain to him. Do what you want. But not to accept the Bible as it is by faith is sin.
Are you telling God that He is a poor teacher. Kind of arrogant aren't you?
The English language is very flexible as was the Greek. You will find that the Holy Spirit in the KJV is sometimes referred to with a masculine pronoun and sometimes with a neuter pronoun, as the Greek can be used either way.
Example:
[FONT="]Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:[/FONT]
--The neuter gender in the Greek was used, and therefore "itself" is technically not incorrect as a translation.
But the ASV recognized the "error" and translated the same exact Greek word this way:
[FONT="]Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:[/FONT] (ASV)
--Both are correct. It is a neuter pronoun but the masculine gender demonstrates the personality of the Holy Spirit.
--Thus your question is answered in the literalness of the KJV translation.
There is not much that matters to you. Scripture itself doesn't seem to matter to you.
I have explained this chapter to you many times. You have no excuse for not understanding it.
Nonsense. Shortening of time does not restrain evil. Salt restrains evil. That is why they use salt as a preservative. It restrains decay and corruption from setting in. It keeps the product PURE for a much longer period of time.
The Christian is the salt of the earth. By their pure lives they restrain evil. They push it back. The corruption in the nation is restrained. Try prayer. It works.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Protestant :
How is it that people and the Word of God can work through some, but not all spiritually dead people?
And how is it you awoke from spiritual death, while most others do not.
What was it that made you differ?
Was the difference found in a special quality of yours, or was it that the Holy Spirit worked a work in you which He did not work in others?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
Has God truly done a work of grace in your heart? If so how and when?
Or, has he just called you here to ask foolish questions?
Why is DHK avoiding giving us a biblical explanation as to why he was able to see the Light, come to the Light and love the Light.....when so many more sinners who have sat under the preaching of the Gospel do no such thing ever.......?
Of what is he afraid?
How is it that people and the Word of God can work through some, but not all spiritually dead people?
And how is it you awoke from spiritual death, while most others do not.
What was it that made you differ?
Was the difference found in a special quality of yours, or was it that the Holy Spirit worked a work in you which He did not work in others?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
Has God truly done a work of grace in your heart? If so how and when?
Or, has he just called you here to ask foolish questions?
Why is DHK avoiding giving us a biblical explanation as to why he was able to see the Light, come to the Light and love the Light.....when so many more sinners who have sat under the preaching of the Gospel do no such thing ever.......?
Of what is he afraid?
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Please re-examine the Greek text of Romans 8:16.
The Greek pronoun used is αὐτός, meaning ‘the self same.’
The referenced Scripture speaks to the identified subject ‘Spirit.’
The NKJV also corrects the error found in the KJV:
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
However, the Scripture in question is 2 Thess. 2:6.
The ASV translates it thusly:
And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
The NKJV translates the same Scripture as:
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
Rather than use the above pronoun, Paul uses the definite article, τό, which is translated ‘who’ when referencing a person.
Had the Holy Spirit been He who is referenced our translators would have made the adjustment as they did in Romans 8:16.
They did not for good reason.
The Holy Spirit is not the Restrainer of which Paul is referencing.
Furthermore, the teaching that the Holy Spirit is He who restrains was unknown in the Christian Church until the invention of Dispensational Futurism.
I am sure you are aware of the predominant view held by the early Church Fathers and continued by the Reformers.
And lastly you consider it arrogant of me to question the Lord who inspired Paul’s writing.
On the contrary, I am questioning your inability to discern the obvious.
Had the Restrainer been either the Church or the Holy Spirit there is no reason on earth why Paul, possibly the greatest teacher of the Apostles, would not have plainly said so since he had mentioned both the Church and the Holy Spirit in the same epistle.
Therefore there must have been a substantial reason for secrecy.
Can you muster up the spiritual prowess to solve this mystery?
Centuries of Christians have understood the reason for secrecy.
The restariner is NOY human government, or anything else on and of this earth, as he alone can do that, as the Spirit Himself is God!
That becomes evident when one reads down just one more verse:
[FONT="]2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.[/FONT]
Human governments have come and gone. Many nations have been without government for a period of time. Still the Antichrist has not come. But when the Holy Spirit via all believers is gone, then havoc will have its way. Lawlessness will be everywhere. There will be nothing to hold it back. No righteous person will be left on this earth.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
I am doing my best to understand your ‘unique’ Futurist doctrinal views.
In your view:
The Church is raptured before the 7-year tribulation period.
The 7-year tribulation period is signified as Daniel’s 70th week.
The Rapture occurs at Rev. 4:1.
The Holy Spirit, still present, is no longer the Restrainer. He denies Himself that power.
The Antichrist, the Man of Sin, comes to world power soon after the Rapture of the Church, the world unaware he is the Antichrist. This occurs at Rev. 6:1.
His 7-year reign ends at Rev. 19:20.
The Antichrist makes a peace covenant with Israel, permitting them to build a third Temple and re-institute animal blood sacrifices. (Dan. 9:27)
The Palestinian Arabs, as well as the entire Arab world, seemingly have no problem with a Jewish Temple desecrating the holy ground upon which their Dome of the Rock sits. The Holy Spirit is not restraining their earnest desire for bloody vengeance. The blessed power to restrain their need for retaliation is found within the Arabs themselves.
The majority of today’s secular Israelites seemingly have no problem with the ongoing slaughter of countless innocent animals which they view as a a grotesque barbarian ritual performed in the name of God. The restraint they show by not crying out vigorously in protest at the inhumane treatment of God's creatures is not due to Holy Spirit influence. For He is no longer the power restraining. Rather the blessed power of restraint comes from within the animal lovers themselves.
In the midst of his 7-year reign the Antichrist enters the Jewish Temple, declares he is God and puts an end to the animal sacrifices. (Dan. 9:27)
The Jews are irate and refuse him worship. The restraint not to worship him is a blessed power found within themselves.
The rest of the gentile world worships him because his astounding miracles prove his deity. They willingly wear his visible mark upon their foreheads as a badge of honor.
Those who refuse his mark are hunted and killed.
My questions are these:
(1) In your view, at what point in the above scenarios are the judgments of God poured out?
(2) In the above quotation you call the 7-year tribulation period ‘the period of God’s grace.’ Is God’s wrath God’s grace in action? Are they not contradictory terms?
(3) How do you explain the multitudes of believers killed during the tribulation period (identified in Rev. 7:9 ff.) if there are no evangelists upon the earth to preach to them? I have previously cited a post of yours which rightly claims the necessity of preaching Jesus to the unsaved. Are you not contradicting yourself?
(4) Do you believe that 144,000 is the literal number of male Jews saved?
(5) Why is it necessary they be literal virgins?
(6) If there are no evangelists upon the earth during this 7-year period, who then are the two witnesses of Rev. 11? Are they not preaching against the Antichrist which causes their demise?
I thank you in advance for your thoughtful replies!
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When the Temple is completed no one knows. It could even be before the Tribulation starts, but as you suggest definitely before the midpoint of the Tribulation when the Antichrist will desecrate it.
Daniel could not foresee what Jewish worship would look like in our day.
MacArthur believes full Levitical worship with temple sacrifices will be re-instituted.
Others don't. With all the environmentalists, organizations like PETA, I fail to see how they would allow Israel or anyone to slaughter animals anywhere, much less in a holy place.
Today they won't even allow the culling of the seal population off the northern coast of Canada. "Save the seal but starve the natives." It is the aboriginal's traditional livelihood. But PETA declares that the worth of seal or animal is the same as the worth of a man. I don't see that philosophy changing much to allow a full sacrificial system.
Perhaps they will have "meal" or food sacrifices.
Judaism will be practiced. They will worship, and their worship will be holy worship. That is what the thought is. Then that worship will cease. The temple will be desecrated. Perhaps he will slaughter something as unclean as a pig and spray its blood everywhere.
Perhaps it will be worse. Human sacrifice. Who knows.
Although not Arabs they are Muslims. And these few Muslims in Pakistan had no problem going into a school full of children and massacring 141 children this last Tuesday. ISIS is just as cruel if not worse.
Out of this chaotic mess of evil one will arise, the Antichrist and will bring a false sense of peace. He is the one in Rev.6 on the white horse. It will allow the Jews to have their temple and their worship. After all, it is their land.
Where is that happening and for what purpose? Do you have documentation?
I have no idea what you are talking about. The Jews live all over the world, not just in Israel. Do you see them sacrificing animals where you live?
If indeed there are animal sacrifices. I have addressed this already. He puts an end to their worship. They become the persecuted. Thus the warnings in Mat.24 are to them: "He that endureth to the end shall be saved." IOW, Christ will come and physically save them, and they also will accept his spiritual salvation. Both will happen.
We all have restraint. Obviously. That is not what the verse is speaking about.
The world worships him because they have been deceived. They believe a lie--that he is god. Read 2Thes.2.
The Bible is not clear about all of them. Most of them will be in the second half, but some may be in the first half of the Tribulation.
No, the Tribulation is not a period of God's grace. It is God's wrath.
Those who believe that the 144,000 are evangelists will naturally think that there is a great in-gathering of souls during this seven year period.
I don't see that. From the statement in 2Thes.2 I don't see anyone but Israel being saved. Adam Clarke, on this passage, states:
"Came out of great tribulation - Persecutions of every kind."
--The phrase means "great affliction." He saw a multitude who came out of every kind of affliction or persecution throughout the centuries. It was a heavenly scene, not necessarily having directly to do with The Great Tribulation.
Probably not. They no doubt are just a part of the remnant.
Though they won't be "evangelists" per se, they may be testimonies of God's grace by a moral life in a wicked world. They are the firstfruits of the redeemed. It doesn't say when they get redeemed. But from that point on the word will no doubt refer to purity in Christ. It no doubt has both meanings. This time of wrath and fleeing from persecution is certainly not the time to be looking for marriage.
One of them is Elijah who is prophesied in Malachi to come. Many think the other one will be Moses, but we don't know for sure.
[FONT="]Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.[/FONT]
--They are witnesses. They have power to do miracles. The world hates them. They will "prophecy" for three and a half years, and then they will be killed. The world will rejoice. Their bodies they will leave in the street. They won't even bury them. They will lie there for three and a half days. Then God will miraculously raise them from the dead. They are hated by the world. So is their message.
You are welcome.
144,000
They are Jewish evangelists, ordained by God to witness one last time in the Name of Jesus. The salvation of those who believe their testimony results in their removal from the earth ---- salvation by Grace through Faith.
Those saved are not the remnant, the 1/3rd of the Jews caught up in the Trib.
They are Jewish evangelists, ordained by God to witness one last time in the Name of Jesus. The salvation of those who believe their testimony results in their removal from the earth ---- salvation by Grace through Faith.
Those saved are not the remnant, the 1/3rd of the Jews caught up in the Trib.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
I thank you for your replies!
Although I have more questions, for now I must concentrate on the above quote of yours.
Speaking of Adam Clarke as a universally recognized Bible authority: his commentary on Daniel 9:24-27 differs vastly from your Futurist interpretation. Adam holds to the historic position held by the Christian Church through the ages:
(1) The 70th week of Daniel refers to Messiah the Prince, Jesus Christ, NOT Antichrist.
“From the coming of our Lord, the third period is to be dated, viz., He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week, that is seven years, Dan 9:27.”
(2) The covenant confirmed was the New Covenant.
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.” (ESV)
“This confirmation of the covenant must take in the ministry of John the Baptist with that of our Lord, comprehending the term of seven years, during the whole of which he might be well said to confirm or ratify the new covenant with mankind. Our Lord says, "The law was until John;" but from his first public preaching the kingdom of God, or Gospel dispensation, commenced.”
(3) Christ’s sacrifice on the cross necessitated the Temple animal sacrifices to cease.
“….that is, in the latter three years and a half in which he exercised himself in the public ministry, he caused, by the sacrifice of himself, all other sacrifices and oblations to cease, which were instituted to signify his.”
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/clarke/dan009.htm
By replacing Christ’s gracious, loving and selfless sacrifice -- which is the crowning glory of our God and Lord, as well as the foundation of our salvation – with an imagined breached covenant made by a wicked unknown Antichrist is most dishonoring to the very God the Futurists call ‘Lord.’
Can you not see the seriousness of the disparity between the interpretation of historic Christianity with that of ‘new’ Dispensational Christianity?
Maybe.
Where do you infer that from?
How do you reconcile it with this scripture:
[FONT="]Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.[/FONT]
Are "Jewish evangelists" a great multitude which no man number (not 144,000), from all nations, kindreds and people, and tongues?
That description does not describe a nation called Israel. It describes those who are not Israel--the Gentiles, or Gentile believers from every nation.