Featured The Nine Gifts of the Spirit

I was sayin'. Now I'm asking:
Have you cast out demons? Give one example-- time, place circumstances.
Have you spoke with other languages? [Time, place, circumstance].
Have you taken up snakes? TP&C.
Have you drank anything deadly? TP&C.
Have you laid hands on the sick and they recovered? TP&C.

No-- how is reciting scripture arguing with it? Now, are YOU arguing with scripture? Scripture says those signs mentioned WILL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE. In you, do they or do they not?

 

I believe what the Bible says. I have seen many saved, baptized, and churches started over the course of my ministry. I follow the will of my Lord. But his will is not to perform miracles. The gift of miracles, and the rest of the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased.

The miracles I mentioned (the first ones especially) were done only by Christ to demonstrate his deity. Not even the apostles could calm the sea, walk on water, feed thousands, raise the dead (already buried), etc. Christ proved that he was God by doing these miracles. Those are not the works Christ was speaking of. And Christ never commanded us to do miracles. There is no verse in the Bible where Christ commands us to do miracles. Can you point to one.

 

You are wrong.

25 During the fourth watch of the night Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.

27 But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”

28 “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”

29 “Come,” he said.

Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”

31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

 

I place this Biblical evidence before you again since you have made no reply. You are making the assertion that salvation does not exist where there are no such miracle signs and gifts. However, 1 Cor. 12:29-30 denies that such are evidential of salvation or sanctification.

Moreover, you are introducing "another gospel" because such miraculous signs did not accompany believers in the Messiah/Christ prior to Pentecost but the same gospel was preached, (Heb. 4:2) the same way of salvation (Jn. 14:6; Acts 10:43) was preached before Pentecost as after pentecost (Jn. 14:6/Acts 10:43 with Acts 4:12).

Paul says there is no other gospel (Gal. 1:6-9) than what he preached and it is the same gospel preached to Abraham (Gal. 3:6-8) and Abraham is used as the model of justification by faith without works for us today (Rom. 4:1-25) and Jesus says that Abraham believed in him (Jn.l 8:57-58) just as did all Old Testament believers (Acts 10:43).

 

God receives the glory when He decides to divine heal one of His saints, but also gets glory when He grants them enduring Grace, as we see in hebrews that some believers in OT were delivered by god in a miracle fashions, others allowed to die and be sick, BOTH in hall of fame!

 

You do realise that htere is very good case to be made that longer ending was NOT part of Gospel originally, that was added in to "smooth" over the ending, by recording actual events God did for the Apostles?

 

we are NOT still NOT in the Apostolic Age!

the "signs and wonders" age passed after John died, God casn still chose to heal, but NOT person gifted to heal!

And itsGod doing that, NOT our fsith in our faith!

You teach a word of faith gospel, NOT real one regarding this!

 

cannot base your entire theology on a 'dubious" ending of mark!

And the purpose of the healings, signs, wonders were to validate the ministry/work/person/message of Christ and His apostles...

Once the Aposlic Age ended, there was no longer a need to do that, so we moved into the new Covenant ,Age of grace, and now we have ALl spiritual blessings in christ given to us, THOSE are always there, healings/signs/wonder there ONLY IF God decides tp do them, NOT the norm now!

You are basing theolgy on a disputable text, and with OT covenant concept!

 

Power of the Gospeland the Holy Spiritisevidenced by having sinners becoming saints in ultimatesense, NOT "signs and wonders!"

 

Then why don't they?

You deny the deity of Christ then? Jesus was just a man in a right relationship to the Father; just an example to us.
Rather, the Bible says: "He came to do the will of the Father."
It does not say that he didn't do these miracle of his own power, rather he did. He was God. He said: "I and my Father are one," a claim to deity. Concerning his own resurrection he said: I lay my life down; I raise it up again, no man taketh it from me."

Christ himself performed the miracles proving that he was God.
Again, if the miracles are for today, and they are for you, why not feed 5,000 with a few fish and a couple loaves of bread. Advertise, I am sure people will come and see you do it. Why not calm the seas. There are plenty of hurricanes. Those people that stand in the way of them will be happy if you can save them from coming destruction and loss of life. I know of many paraplegics that would love to have the use of their legs once again. Come and heal them that they may walk again. If you believe in what you say, then demonstrate, don't just spout it off on the board.

Where is the promise: "Believers will do these miracles"?
Where is the evidence that believers have done these miracles?
Can you point to it in history? Give the evidence.

You have a great misunderstanding of this verse. Where does it say miracles. It doesn't. It says works, not miracles.
Here is an example of one of the greatest works that Jesus did. You can read it in John chapter 4, but I will summarize it for you.
Jesus met a woman at the well, a Samaritan woman, and proceeded to talk with her. He promised her that if she would believe on him that she would have eternal life. She believed. She went in the town and told the townspeople of Christ. They came and saw Christ. Most of the town came out and saw Christ. Their testimony was, "Now we believe just because of your words but because we have heard him ourselves."
What was the great work that Christ did. It was the work of salvation. Many believed on him. They weren't physical miracles. They were spiritual--that many believed on him. This is what Christ is speaking of here when he says "works."

Christ had a ministry of only 3 years. If a young person gets saved under the age of 20 and lives past the age of 60 he has 40 or more years to serve the Lord. In that time he can do "greater" works than Christ, in that he has the potential to reach more people in his life time. For he will have lived that much longer. The works speak of salvation and service, not supernatural miracles.

What gives you the idea that these specific things are promised to believers of this age?

Of course you will say that these instructions are for the disciples only, and until the canon was finished. Yet verses 15 &16 you will hold is still true for everyone today:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Why would you stop there? Because it takes faith to do the works. You have taken the easy road friend, and your time on earth has dwindled.[/quote]
Is it not possible that in the context, then Christ turned his attention and spoke those words specifically to his disciples? I think that is more likely the case.

Then please demonstrate this power. However realize this. No one ever got saved as a result of a miracle. Do you remember the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Abraham said concerning the brothers of the rich man that they would not get saved though one return from the grave. A miracle would not penetrate their hardened hearts.
Jesus did more miracles in Capernaum then any other city, but the people were so hardened they would not believe. It would be more tolerable in the day of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah, than it would be for that city.

Read 1Cor.1,2. Paul preached with the power of the Holy Spirit, without miracles. BTW, I don't appreciate your personal attacks since you have never heard me preach. Paul had great power without miracles. He founded the church at Corinth. Many got saved. It was not miracles that got people saved; it was the preaching of the Word, the gospel.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation."
--Notice Paul did not say that miracles were the power of God unto salvation.

Then, if that is true, you demonstrate it for us.
But it is not true. The power is the gospel. It is the power of God unto salvation. The power is in the Word of God itself. It is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing of the soul and spirit and is a discerner between the thoughts and intents of the heart. That is where the power is, not in miracles.

There is no power in miracles. There is power in the Word of God; in the gospel. I am not the one that needs to repent.
You speak of miracles but cannot perform one. You are a hypocrite. Who needs to repent?

 

Yes, he said that to Peter. Did he say that to you?
Go to the Great Lakes, or one of the Oceans near you--Pacific or Atlantic? Demonstrate for us. Let us see you walk on the water if it is for you to do these miracles for today. Please, I will even come all the way down from Canada just to watch you.
Or are you a hypocrite, needing to repent of saying you can do these things when you can't.

 

Jesus said it to Peter. You said the disciples could not walk on water. You were shown that you were wrong

I think we all have the opportunity here to see evil twisting and discourse in action with your type of questioning, in my humble opinion.

 

Jesus could walk on water and the APOSTLE Peter did for a short period. Jesus could also resurrect the dead and so could his Apostles.

DHK and I have already admitted this is true about the apostles as we pointed to the "signs of an apostle" - 2 Cor. 12:12 - and we have admitted this is true right up to the completion of the N.T. Canon.

Therefore, the issue is not whether Christ and the apostles or those living in the apostolic age could as the scriptures were still unfinished but whether post-apostolic, post canon completion Christians like YOU can or not!

Jesus told his apostles they would do greater things. You apply this beyond the apostles to YOU!

Therefore, can YOU raise the dead? How many have YOU raised? Can YOU walk on water? When and where and who witnessed YOU doing this?

YOU are the one making this claim so put up or shut up!

 

You and DHK have not admitted the error of saying the disciples did not walk on water.

Show me where I said I could personally walk on water. Show me now or repent for making up things.

Put up the quotes where I said I can personally walk on water and raise the dead. Put it up or open your mouth to repent.

 

But he didn't say it any of the other disciples. And without the help of Jesus he would have drowned. Can you give me any other incidents in history where such an event has happened. The entire event was a demonstration of the deity of Christ.
If it isn't, I will await your demonstration for the world to see. Be sure to bring a camera crew.

I am not the one twisting Scripture.
It is very arrogant of you to claim something and then not to be able to back it up. Let me see you calm the waters, feed the 5,000, walk on water, turn water into wine, raise the dead (already buried)? Let me see you perform these miracles. If not, then shut up. Don't be so arrogant as to claim something and then not be able to do it. That is sinful pride. For one who claims sinfulness you have a terrible problem with arrogance and pride, as well as personal accusations which are nothing more than lies. Is there repentance coming?

 

You are coming to the defense of Plain-n-Simple who did in fact make the following quotation:

John 14
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Believers will do these miracles. - Plain-n-Simple

Or have I misunderstood you and you are not defending this remark by Plain-n-Simple and are in fact denying this text is applicable to YOU or Plain-n-Simple or believers today???????


BTW where did I ever say that the disciples of Jesus did not walk on water???????? If I said, quote it and give the post#. I think you are confusing me with someone else.

 

You said none of Jesus’ disciples could walk on water. That is what you said. I have shown you your error.

Is this another example of your type of debating? Where have I said Peter did not have to have faith in Jesus in order to walk on water? Do you know what a dishonest discussion is?

Why do I have to give you another incident in history? I have corrected you with scripture, yet you do not show yourself thankful for the correction. Why is that?

I find your debate tactics unsavory.

 

DHK said the disciples could not walk on water. I corrected DHK with scripture. Do you get it now?

 

It is unsavory to be proven wrong. It is prideful and arrogant to claim something and not be able to do it. If the sign gifts were for today then they would be in use, and you would be able to demonstrate it, but they aren't. That makes you a hypocrite and a liar. Either back up your statements by evidence or retract your statements. So much for sinlessness.