The Peace Of God That Passes All Understanding

[Lorelei]

Why was this topic moved here? Any reasons? I have participated in this discussion and now it's been moved to an area I never post at. I do consider myself fundamental in beliefs, but I do not carry a Fundamentalist label. Could someone please explain why the post was moved?

Grace,

God never promised us we would never be sick, he did promise us peace.

Helen,

Yes I am a mother but my hormones don't change God's Word.

Kate,

You quoted doctors, I quoted the Word of God.

Everyone,

Please note the lack of scripture as this subject is dealt with. You all had a lot to say, but it in no way explained to me why the promise in Philippians did not apply to us all. It merely continued to excuse behavior that the Bible says we are not supposed to have.

~Lorelei

 

[Ed Edwards]

Phillipians 4:4-9 is True, Sister Lorelei.

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV1873):
For the word of God is quick, and powerful,
and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder
of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts
and intents of the heart.

The spirit is the software played
upon the hardware of the soul.
The soul (mind) is the software played
upon the hardware of the body (brain).
As long as the spirit is on the soul,
and the soul on the body, the malfunctions
of the body will influence the
operations of the soul and spirit;
likewise the operation of the spirit
will influence the soul and body.
Only death (release of the soul and spirit
from the body) will cease these
interactions.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
Larry, I challenage you to go read everything I wrote on the exact same thread like this one that you said you didn't read all of it. I gave medical evidence.

I have seen the evidence. THat is not the point. It has been demonstrated that some depression is the result of your thoughts and what you allow your mind to think. This is an area where you need to adjust your belief to Scripture.

Either you believe medical science or you do not. If not, then stop going to the doctor.

I believe in medical science for delaing with medical issues. I have said that many times. I do not agree that medical science is to deal with spiritual issues.

Every illness is casued by sin, so just repent and you will get better. So will your children, if they only repent.

Techinically speaking this is true (but not in teh matter that your unfornately smart aleck response intends). If Adam and Eve never sinned, there would be no sickness. However, Christ makes clear that not all sickness is the direct result of sin (cf. Job, Blind man in John 9, Paul's thorn in the flesh, etc.).

Of coure then you put God ina box and tell Him to opperate your way, and take away His opitions. You people seem to be saying God never uses medicine to heal someone. You seem to think we are saying a pill is all anyone needs. And not one person has said that.

This is an unfortunate failure on your part to actively engage in my comments here and other places. I have encouraged people to seek medical solutions for medical problems. It would be nice for you to admit that I said that and get off this foolish notion that I do not believe it. I have put God in no box at all. I have taken his word. Consider Psalm 42 and the depression that David faced and then look at how David handled. Consider the life of Job and his depression. If you doubt he had it, just read the book. Then look at God's solution to Job's depression in Job 36-42. It is astoundingly different than your response.

So you are clear, read this very carefully: Some depression is the result of medical problems. In such cases, they should be tested and treated medically. Do not ever misrepresent me again on that issue. But do not forget this: Some depression is the result of spiritual problems and those issues should not be treated with medicine since the proper response to spiritual problems is a spiritual response.

[ March 02, 2003, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
Prehaps you'd like to show where I said anyone was ignorant.

Originally posted by kate B...007:
...somoene who has no idea what they are talking about.

Ignorant (according to Webster): showing lack of knowledge, unaware, uniformed, not having knowledge, etc..

 

[ByGrace]

Yes, Philippians 4:4-9 is certainly true. And in this passage Paul is teacing us an important lesson; our inner attitudes do not have to reflect our outward circumstances. Paul was full of joy because he knew that no matter what happened to him, Jesus was with him. True peace is not found in positive thinking or in good feelings. It comes from knowing that God is in control.

Lorelei, in this passage it also says to be known by your "gentle" spirit. I've seen very little of that gentleness in your posts.

In His love,
Grace

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
If you do not believe medical science then I challenge you to stop going to a doctor and taking your children to the doctor...Either medical sceience knows about the functioning of the human body or they do not. Which is it?

These statements are not logical. Surely you don't believe medical science is absolute and without error! Every Christian has the right to follow medical science in areas where they believe it corresponds to scripture, and reject it when they believe it speaks contrary to the inspired word of God. If you do not feel there is a contradiction between the science of mental illnesses and the Bible, then fine. But don't judge others as being inconsistent when they do feel there are problems between these truths.

 

[ByGrace]

Pastor Larry,

Some depression is the result of medical problems. In such cases, they should be tested and treated medically. . . Some depression is the result of spiritual problems and those issues should not be treated with medicine since the proper response to spiritual problems is a spiritual response.

I agree with the above quote. Although I do believe that, even in spiritual problems, if a person is suicidal medication can be used temporarily to get them to the place where they can be counselled. Unfortunately, that is not what has been said by some others in this forum...and the reason for a lot of the confusion on this topic.

Grace

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
Either the topic is depression, or sins effect ont he life. Which is it. Illness or sin?

Sin in one's life can cause depression. Surely you would not deny something so basic as that. You ask "which is it?" The answer is, until there is a complete medical check up, we don't know.

I beleive God can and does heal, but I also believe He does it both miracouly and with medicnes.

I agree but that is irrelevant here.

]Prephaps you'd like to show where I said anyone was ignorant. Either that or stop falsely accusing me. Your supose to be a pastor, but you issue false accusations.

You are the one who said that people who didn't know what they were talking about were commenting on this topic. "Not knowing what you are talking about" is by definition "Ignorant." I made no false charges.

Scripture of peoples who were depressed who never once did God belittle them like poeple on here do, nor did He give instructions for anyone else to belittle them, or judge them. Seems you all want to use a lot of scritpute without looking at all of it. Show me where God once belittled anyone sick from anything in the bible.

I have not belittled anyone here and I have seen no here belittle someone else. But when we come to the serious matter of people's lives, we must be truthful from Scripture. Far too many counselors are unwilling to ask the tough questions, the get to the spiritual root of problems. Your definition of "belittle" may be a little off base.

But alas, I still see no Scripture in your post.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ByGrace:
Paul was full of joy because he knew that no matter what happened to him, Jesus was with him. True peace is not found in positive thinking or in good feelings. It comes from knowing that God is in control.

Amen! And he showed us through this passage that the same can apply to all of us. We can experience that same peace, if we only realize that all this junk around us doesn't matter, God IS in control!

Originally posted by ByGrace:

Lorelei, in this passage it also says to be known by your "gentle" spirit. I've seen very little of that gentleness in your posts.

It's hard to judge the hearts of others through only textual correspondance. We are also involved in a discussion on depression. In any thread I talk in, I deal very little with self or emotions. I deal with the facts according to the Word of God. It's my manner in all discussions of this type. We are speaking about "depression" not an individual who is depressed.

Part of my attitude in this thread may seem curt, but in another thread, I was dealt with in a very unloving manner and many even stooped to calling me names. I am trying to leave emotion out of it, I hope that you can too. Please do not start turning this into a name calling and finger pointing discussion, let us stick to the facts about the subject, not each other. I don't find that type of response gentle or productive.

~Lorelei

 

[ByGrace]

Lorelei,

Part of my attitude in this thread may seem curt, but in another thread, I was dealt with in a very unloving manner and many even stooped to calling me names. I am trying to leave emotion out of it, I hope that you can too. Please do not start turning this into a name calling and finger pointing discussion, let us stick to the facts about the subject, not each other. I don't find that type of response gentle or productive.

I'm sorry that you were treated in an "unloving manner," and "called names." I know nothing about that other discussion. And, I have called you no names and have pointed no fingers.

"We can experience that same peace, if we only realize that all this junk around us doesn't matter, God IS in control!

All that other "junk" DOES matter to the one going through it. Just because we are Christians doesn't mean that we don't have feelings and we don't get hurt. And, God may be working all things together for good in a person's life through a crisis or tragedy. Maybe it takes one a little longer than another to come to the realization that God IS in control. Who are we to rush God. We are all in different places in our walk with Him. It's our job to "love one another," it's God's job to make them into what He wants them to be; and to teach them what He wants them to know in His own time.

We are speaking about "depression" not an individual who is depressed.

How do you know how many individuals here suffer with depression? How do you know the way in which they've been treated over the years by unkind Christians? Just something to think about....

Grace

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kate B...007:
Prehaps you'd like to show where I said anyone was ignorant.

Originally posted by kate B...007:
...somoene who has no idea what they are talking about.

Ignorant (according to Webster): showing lack of knowledge, unaware, uniformed, not having knowledge, etc.. </font>[/QUOTE]Number one, I have not said anyone was ignorant.
ANd if that is the case maybe you should reread all the posts on this topic and see how many times I've been called ignorant. Just where did you adminish someone else for calling me ignorant? Or is that only for peopel you agree with?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Loralei;

When you talk about depression to a depressed person; you ARE talking about that person as an individual.

Every time a thread gets started on this topic. You say one thing; people who have suffered depression (including myself) say another.

Most of these threads get closed because REAL people, with REAL depression, who believe in the REAL God, are getting hurt.

You will never convince us that you are right and we will never convince you that we know what we are talking about and we do NOT have a lack of faith in God.

Please tell me the point of this debate....

Sue

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kate B...007:
Either the topic is depression, or sins effect ont he life. Which is it. Illness or sin?

Sin in one's life can cause depression. Surely you would not deny something so basic as that. You ask "which is it?" The answer is, until there is a complete medical check up, we don't know.

I beleive God can and does heal, but I also believe He does it both miracouly and with medicnes.

I agree but that is irrelevant here.

]Prephaps you'd like to show where I said anyone was ignorant. Either that or stop falsely accusing me. Your supose to be a pastor, but you issue false accusations.

You are the one who said that people who didn't know what they were talking about were commenting on this topic. "Not knowing what you are talking about" is by definition "Ignorant." I made no false charges.

Scripture of peoples who were depressed who never once did God belittle them like poeple on here do, nor did He give instructions for anyone else to belittle them, or judge them. Seems you all want to use a lot of scritpute without looking at all of it. Show me where God once belittled anyone sick from anything in the bible.

I have not belittled anyone here and I have seen no here belittle someone else. But when we come to the serious matter of people's lives, we must be truthful from Scripture. Far too many counselors are unwilling to ask the tough questions, the get to the spiritual root of problems. Your definition of "belittle" may be a little off base.

But alas, I still see no Scripture in your post. </font>[/QUOTE]Again I must say the same thing over and over it seems. I ahve used scripture on this topic, but this si the second time we have discussed this topic in the last two weeks. If you'd read everyting you'd see I've used scripture and no one has been able to refute it either, and not many even acknowledged it even exsisted.

 

[donnA]

I have seen the evidence. THat is not the point. It has been demonstrated that some depression is the result of your thoughts and what you allow your mind to think. This is an area where you need to adjust your belief to Scripture.

Some depression? ANd what about the others not included in that some? According to the posts on the BB on this topic all depression is included in that.

Techinically speaking this is true (but not in teh matter that your unfornately smart aleck response intends). If Adam and Eve never sinned, there would be no sickness. However, Christ makes clear that not all sickness is the direct result of sin (cf. Job, Blind man in John 9, Paul's thorn in the flesh, etc.).

Nope sorry, you all are saying it's the indivduals sin, not adam and eve's sin. Please read all related posts.

So you are clear, read this very carefully: Some depression is the result of medical problems. In such cases, they should be tested and treated medically.

I've had these medical tests. Again I say, that it is being said on this topic that there is no such medical casue and that all depression is caused by the persons sins. I ahve used a lot of scripture, like that very people you named(from the bible, Job, paul, and blind man), no one will answer that.

 

[donnA]

Kate,

You quoted doctors, I quoted the Word of God.

I have also quoted scripture and you refuse to acknowledge it. Once again I challenge you if you do not believe doctors and medical science why do you do yourself and your children a disservice by using doctors and the medical knowledge you condemn? Please answer, as if I really expect you too, you never have.

 

[donnA]

These statements are not logical. Surely you don't believe medical science is absolute and without error! Every Christian has the right to follow medical science in areas where they believe it corresponds to scripture , and reject it when they believe it speaks contrary to the inspired word of God. If you do not feel there is a contradiction between the science of mental illnesses and the Bible, then fine. But don't judge others as being inconsistent when they do feel there are problems between these truths.

And yet you deny me this very same right. Thats what these two topics on depression are all about.

 

[donnA]

I was the very first person to post on this topic, but my post does not exsist. Why? What happened to it? Wasn't it just a few weeks ago some tried to say there was no censorship on the BB.

 

[Lorelei]

Grace,

How many people who read these threads may be dealing with alcoholism. Should we not tell them that the Bible says not to be drunk? How many people may be lairs? Should we not share that God wants us to speak truth?

I don't know how many people are depressed, but I do know what the Word of God says about it.

Why are we talking about me. If I am wrong, prove it, not according to science, but according to the Word of God. Isn't that what Baptists use as their authority in all matters?

John 14:27
27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
NIV

~Lorelei

 

[donnA]

Just to let you know I am done with this topic. Some poeple are so closed minded they don't want to let God out of the box they stuck Him in. I've used scripture, medical proofs, nothing changes the mind of someone whose hardened their heart against God's people.
God forbid that someone needing real help should come to the bb looking for caring compassionate christians to help them. And find only selfrighteousness and judgement, finger pointing.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
Please tell me the point of this debate....

Sue

To show people what the Bible says about depression. To show people there is hope and there is peace and there is freedom from depression, it's all right there available to anyone who wants it!

Matt 11:28-30

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
KJV

~Lorelei