The Peace Of God That Passes All Understanding

[I Am Blessed 24]

Well rl; I can't answer for Betty, only for myself.

Pastor Larry has, indeed, kept the same position all the way through this thread. I did not mean to imply he had changed his views.

Sometimes it's not what you say; but how you say it. Even though I still don't agree with Pastor Larry on this particular subject, I appreciate the softer tone in his last post.

"You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar."

Sue

 

[Thankful]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
Betty & Sue, I am curious and have a question. I hope you won't mind answering. I am wondering what it is in Pastor Larry's last post that causes you to think he is being compassionate, and why you have not thought he was compassionate before?? Perhaps it would be even good to define what you mean by compassionate. I am curious because it seems to me that Pastor Larry has maintained the same position throughout all of these discussions.

Dictionary definition of
Compassion: sorrow for the sufferings or trouble of another of others, accompanied by an urge to help; deep sympathy.

I think compassion means simply caring for other people's feelings and helping them if possible.


You are correct, Pastor Larry's position has not changed and I think he will agree that his position has not changed, but in earlier posts on this subject, I felt that he didn't care about people who might be hurting. I don't want to point out any specific posts.

In the last post, it was obvious to me that he cares for other people and that he would be willing to counsel them when they are in need.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Thankful:
[but in earlier posts on this subject, I felt that he didn't care about people who might be hurting. I don't want to point out any specific posts.

That is why we should avoid judging people's motives, espeicially in this form of communication. I have said it before and I will say it again, we can NOT know how a person feels from reading text on a screen. A LOT of what we read into a post is our own feelings or what we expect someone to say or do.

I do not say this to point fingers, I have been guilty of it myself, only to find out later I took it all wrong.

I got a call from my Uncle the other day, because we were having miscommunications in email. I thought his attitude was flippant, he thought mine was harsh, but in TALKING we worked it out ASAP.

The Christian thing to do is always give the person the benefit of the doubt. Don't assume improper motives. I think we could ALL benefit from that.

~Lorelei

 

[Ed Edwards]

Lorelei: "The Christian thing to do is always give
the person the benefit of the doubt.
Don't assume improper motives. I think
we could ALL benefit from that."

Amen, Sister Lorelei -- Preach it!
Giving the benefit of the doubt to our Christian
Brothers and Sisters is puting our emotions
under the authority of God, where they belong.

I see 104 references in the New Testament
alone to "peace". Do any of them say
that the opposite of peace is despression?
I think not.

Philippians 4:4-7 (KJV1873):
Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
5 Let your moderation be known unto all men.
The Lord is at hand.
6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing
by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving
let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth
all understanding, shall keep your hearts
and minds through Christ Jesus.

Father God, please lend your best blessings
to Sister Lorelei, her family, and her ministry.
May this be done so that we might give all
the more honor and glory unto our blessed
Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus. Amen.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Ed-ifier:
I see 104 references in the New Testament
alone to "peace". Do any of them say
that the opposite of peace is despression?
I think not.

I did a search of the entire Bible and did not find the words depress or depressed. So if the BIble doesn't use the word, how do you expect to find a verse saying it is the opposite of peace? According to this line of reasoning, I can assume depression does not exist because the wording is not found in the Bible.

~Lorelei

 

[Ed Edwards]

Lorelei: "Don't assume improper motives."

Lorelei: "According to this line of reasoning, ... "

You have erred against your own guidance.
Let me make statements. You can agree or disagree.
Don't go down that "line of reasoning" to a
place i didn't go. Thank you.
Likewise i shall honor the priesthood of the Believer
on your part: you make statements, i shall
agree or disagree. And hopefully i'll disagree
in an agreeable manner. You, Sister Lorelei, have
received enough verbal abuse on lo these half-dozen
"depression" topics, so i'm sure you don't need
anymore Anyway, disagreeable names tell more
about the name caller than then one called, as
all semi-intellegent plus persons know.

BTW, according to that line of reasoning,
your 11:17AM post does not exist

I can't find "comptuer", "Baptist Board",
or even the "CRT" on which i think i
saw your post -- none of these are in the Bible

I tought logic to 15-year-olds 1969-1974
in the public schools in Oklahoma. So i know
a bit about human logic.

The first step of human logic is to have
terms defined. Here is my definition of some
terms i've seen in this topic:

Depression1 - a transient feeling of gloom,
inadequacy, or sadness

Depression2 - long term (days+) maladjustment
to spiritual well being

Depression3 - testable physical illness of
the brain

brain - physical organ that houses the human soul
soul - eternal part of a human
mind - the part of the soul that runs on the
--- brain while alive. Some mind functions are:
--- will, memory, imagination, emotion,
body function control, (this list is not exhaustive)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Lorelei: "Is the Bible our final authority
for faith & practice or is it not?"

It is. However, not every
specific practice comes directly from
scripture. Instead, general principles come direct from
scripture; specific practices derive
from the general principles.

Caveat: I do NOT agree with the non-medical
use of marijuana.

For example, from the Bible we can get
this general principle: "do not add an
artifical appetite". The use of marijuana
adds an artifical appetite (the appitite
for the effects of marijuana are not natural).
So using marijuana is wrong.

General principle: i am responsible to God
to do no harm
Specifi principle: i shall drive my car under
the speed limit

Here is a general principle we've discussed here:
the soul is to be under authority of the spirit.

Obviously, specific practices are not mentioned
in the Bible but must be understood by the
general principle which comes from the Bible.

For example: in general, i am to minister
to my wife in all good things.
As a result, i make sure she has an automobile
so she can go do her ministies.
"Automobile" is not in the Bible.
I believe we can find it is my responsiblity
to provide for my God-given wife. Such
a responsibility involves facilitating her
doing her ministry (she plays the organ
at our church). Toward that direction, i make
sure she has a way to get to the church: the
automobile.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Ed-ifier:
Do any of them say
that the opposite of peace is despression?

Forgive me for assuming the line of reasoning. What I do not see is how this statement can be a conclusive argument when depression is not mentioned in the Bible at all, not specifically.

When you list the things that are associated with depression, "extreme sadness" and "hopelessness" and "helplessness" they are the opposite of peace hope and joy, all of which are promised from God and are part of the fruit of the Spirit. (The words I used were from the definition of clinical depression that I found at dictionary.com)

It isn't fair to ignore this fact and simply say, that the Bible does not say peace is the oppisite of depression.

Peace defined "inner contentment" is the opposite of these things. I see no way to have inner contentment while feeling hopeless, helpless and extrememly sad.

Now, please tell me how peace is not the oppisite of these things.

Originally posted by Ed-ifier:

Lorelei: "Is the Bible our final authority
for faith & practice or is it not?"

It is. However, not every
specific practice comes directly from
scripture. Instead, general principles come direct from
scripture; specific practices derive
from the general principles.

I don't find this issue as a general practice not clearly defined in scripture. I believe is is specifically addressed and therefore this analagy does not apply.

The Bible specifically tells me how have to the peace of God that passes all understanding. I believe this scripture is accurate and complete in listing all that needs to be said on the subject.

Peace, unlike an automobile IS addressed in the Bible.

Phil 4:4-9

4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.

5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
KJV

~Lorelei

 

[Ed Edwards]

Lorelei: "Is the Bible our final authority
for faith & practice or is it not?"

Ed: "It is. However, not every
specific practice comes directly from
scripture. Instead, general principles come direct from
scripture; specific practices derive
from the general principles."

Lorelei: "I don't find this issue as a general practice
not clearly defined in scripture.
I believe is is specifically addressed
and therefore this analagy does not apply."

1) My statement is not debatable.
If this statement is not true, then we have no basis
upon which to converse:

General principles come direct from
scripture; specific practices derive
from the general principles

2) What do you mean by "issue"?
Do you mean by the "it" that is spelled "i-s"
the same as you mean by "issue"?

Do you agree or disagree with the following
definitions? If we agree, we can logically
discuss. If not, we can discuss, but not
logically (and likely with anamosity).
You can agree/disagree with each
individually.

1. Depression1 - a transient feeling of gloom,
inadequacy, or sadness

2. Depression2 - long term (days+) maladjustment
of spiritual well being

3. Depression3 - testable physical illness of
the brain

4. brain - physical organ that houses the human soul

5. soul - eternal part of a human

6. mind - the part of the soul that runs on the
--- brain while alive. Some mind functions are:
--- will, memory, imagination, emotion,
--- body function control, (this list is not exhaustive)

Lorelei: "The Bible specifically tells me how have
to the peace of God that passes all understanding."

I agree. It tells me also.
It says to rejoice, among other things.
Can a comotose person rejoice? That is a retorical
question, requiring an answer of:
No, a comotose person cannot rejoice.

Lorelei: "I believe this scripture is accurate
and complete in listing all that needs to
be said on the subject."

I believe it is a general principle about how
to obtain and keep the peace of God.
The details of applying that to specific examples
requires that more be said.

What does "peace of God" mean?
We are defining terms, feel free to offer your
definition.

Lorelei: "When you list the things that are associated
with depression, "extreme sadness"
and "hopelessness" and "helplessness"
they are the opposite of peace hope and joy,
all of which are promised from God and are
part of the fruit of the Spirit."

I believe when we list the definitions of
extreme sadness, hopelessness, and helplessness
and of the fruits of the Spirit: peace, hope,
and joy -- we may find they are not true
opposites. And there is a logic
problem with opposites. For example on another
venue i said:

-----------------------------------
Jesus said in Matthew 24:13 (nKJV):
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

This statement of Jesus is true.
Logic does not support (true or false) this statement:

He who DOES NOT endure to the end
shall NOT be saved.

And the truth or falseness of it might be hard to prove
from the Bible. But this statement is NOT true
because of "he who endures to the end shall be saved".
-----------------------------------

The following topic, Eternal Security,
now to six pages, is a discussion
of whether or not the second statement
(the one with the "not"s in it) is true or false.
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=002353

So there are logic problems with throwing "not"s
around. And it effects our understanding of what
the Scripture is all about.

 

[Dr. Bob]

2 Sam 13:4 And he said to him, "O son of the king, why are you so depressed morning after morning? Will you not tell me?"

2 Cor 7:6 But God, who comforts the depressed, comforted us by the coming of Titus;

Greek = tapeinos "depressed", i.e. (fig.) humiliated (in circumstances or disposition):--base, cast down, humble, of low degree (estate), lowly.

In the AV and its subsequent revisions, it is translated with a variety of terms - but all mean "depress".

BTW, the opposite is "parakletos" or consoled, comforted, helped. Neat that such is a title given to the holy Spirit Who is a consolation to me when I am depressed.

 

[Lorelei]

Ed,

I have to admit you lost me at the i-s issue part. The defintion of hoplessness is having no hope. I find those two in opposition.

I do not believe that depression is a testable physical illness of the brain.

Dr. Bob,

Thanks for sharing that. I searched the NIV and KJV and didn't find it.

I did note that the verse says that God is the one that comforts the depressed.

You mentioned that people in the Bible suffered from clinical depression but have yet to answer how they were cured from it.

~Lorelei

 

[Ed Edwards]

Lorelei, you said:
"I don't find this issue as a general practice
not clearly defined in scripture.
I believe is is specifically addressed
and therefore this analagy does not apply."

Lorelei, i believed you to have said:
"I don't find this issue as a general practice
not clearly defined in scripture.
I believe it is specifically addressed
and therefore this analagy does not apply."

Does "it" have a referant of "this issue"?
To what does "this issue" refer?


Lorelei: "I do not believe that depression is a testable
physical illness of the brain."

1. Depression1 - a transient feeling of gloom,
inadequacy, or sadness

2. Depression2 - long term (days+) maladjustment
of spiritual well being

3. Depression3 - testable physical illness of
the brain

I do not beleive depression1 is a testable
physical illness of the brain.
I do not believe depression2 is a testable
physical illness of the brain.
I believe that depression3 is a testaable
physical illness of the brain.

We will sure spin our wheels a lot if we
aren't talking about the same meaning of
words???

Let the Bible define it's own term.
Here is "peace":

Romans 5:1 (nKJV):
Therefore, having been justified by faith,
we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 2:14-17 (nKJV):
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one,
and has broken down the middle wall
of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity,
that is, the law of commandments contained
in ordinances, so as to create in Himself
one new man from the two,
thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both
to God in one body through the cross,
thereby putting to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you
who were afar off and to those who were near.

Can a comatose person have peace?
Yes, if they had the justification that comes
from faith in Jesus before being comatose.

 

[donnA]

Lorelei: "Is the Bible our final authority
for faith & practice or is it not.

Well, yes it is. So according to the bible when your child disobeys you have to hit them with a rod(stick, switch), and further disobedience means you have to stone them.

 

[Thankful]

 

[Dr. Bob]

Kate - Do they still do that in Kentucky?

Amazed at how we become good "legalists" when God gives us liberty!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
Lorelei: "Is the Bible our final authority
for faith & practice or is it not.

Well, yes it is. So according to the bible when your child disobeys you have to hit them with a rod(stick, switch), and further disobedience means you have to stone them.

Actually this is a bit simplistic. Corporal punishment is certainly a biblical principle and is well-suited to its task. It works when used properly. The "further disobedience" is where you enter a problem: First, it was not just "further disobedience;" there were specific reasons when stoning was to be used. Second, it was a part of the Law of Israel, not a part of the commands for the church.

While your attempt may have been to be funny or to try to demonstrate a problem with the Bible, it was in reality neither. There is no problem with the teaching of Scripture. The only problem may be with the understanding of it.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
You mentioned that people in the Bible suffered from clinical depression but have yet to answer how they were cured from it.

In Bible days they used herbal medicine. We now have more scientific and medical knowledge and have incorporated the herbs into what is now known as a "pill". Much easier to swallow than all those yucky herbs and much more effective.

And God comforts us in depression; whether we are taking herbs, "pills", or nothing. He knows us as individuals; and as such, He knows what is best for us and acts accordingly. It may not be His 'perfect will', but He will always be right there with us; no matter what.

Sue

 

[Thankful]

I must apologize for laughing so hard about Kate's remark. (Actually, I did laugh that hard)

It came as a comic relief from such a serious subject and...I had just returned from church where the preacher had preached a very encouraging, edifying, message that actually affected me just the opposite because it brought back memories of the death of my daughter. Many people were crying in church. My daughter died suddenly a year or so ago at the age of 37 leaving two small children.

I have dealt with this through my faith and I have thanked God for the 37 years that I had her, but at times, I still ask "why." I also have the comfort of knowing that she is with our Lord and Savior.

Actually, last night, I had a "feeling" of depression, but I still had and have the peace that passeth all understanding. I still know that God is in control.

Pastor Larry is correct...Many times it is our understanding of the scripture....

[ March 06, 2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Thankful ]

 

[ByGrace]

Sue,

In Bible days they used herbal medicine. We now have more scientific and medical knowledge and have incorporated the herbs into what is now known as a "pill". Much easier to swallow than all those yucky herbs and much more effective.

I agree, I tried to make that exact point earlier in this discussion...but I think it got lost in the shuffle.
I would just like to add that just because the Bible doesn't record that someone took an herbal remedy doesn't mean they didn't. . .it just means that they didn't record it.

Grace

 

[Aaron]

Saw the ad for Zoloft again and I thought of this discussion.

The add said the cause of depression is "unknown" and "may" be due to a chemical imbalance in the brain.

In other words, "We don't really know why you're bummin', but here's a drug (with all sorts of negative side-effects) to get you high again for awhile."

Now that was a TV ad for a pill, but can those in this discussion that insist that some depression is due to a chemical imbalance offer evidence to counter this add?

http://www.zoloft.com/index.asp?pageid=2

Scroll to the tab "Causes of Depression."