The point of intoxication

[rsr]

Not only do true Baptist's hold to the tradition of teetotalism, but they pattern themselves after the Son of God who was a teetotaler Himself!

I'm curious. How long do you suppose true Baptists have held to the tradition of teetotaling?

 

[Lagardo]

Wish you would make up your mind. You say it is ok to drink in moderation, yet you also say people should take Biblical advice.

Actually, I just said that people should not let others judge them for what they drink...and I didn't say it (originally), its found in Colossians. If you are seeing something else in my post, maybe you should check into what you are drinking?:thumbs:

Seriously, I personally do not drink for reasons I stated in a previous post in this thread, and I believe abstinence to be very wise. However, if someone drinks in moderation that does not make them unsaved, that does not mean they preach a different Christ, and that is not really my concern.

I think we need to be very cautious about isigeting scripture to support our modern traditions. Abstinence is a modern tradition for Christianity. This thread has even managed to get someone saying that satan tricks cardiologists in reccomending wine for its medical benefits. Even Paul made that reccomendation (albeit for the stomach). Scripture is what it is and does not need you or I to add to it.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I'm curious. How long do you suppose true Baptists have held to the tradition of teetotaling?

All the way back to the first century AD for sure. John the Baptist, a Nazarite, was definitely a teetotaler.

Jesus was a teetotaler also.

 

[rsr]

All the way back to the first century AD for sure. John the Baptist, a Nazarite, was definitely a teetotaler.

Making a lot of assumptions there. A teetotaler, yes. Baptist? I don't think so.

Jesus was a teetotaler also.

Well, that's the point of controversy, isn't it?

Honestly, what was the traditional view of the early historic Baptists toward alcohol?

 

[Brother Bob]

I have seen some of those social and moderate drinkers with their tongues hanging out or their heads stuck in a commode puking their guts out.
Alcohol is worse than any desease out there. It will destroy more than anything I know from personally experience.
I must admit there are some Scriptures that have given me pause over the years but then I keep reading and read them right out.

Alcohol has broken up more homes, killed more mother's sons and daughters and husbands than all the wars and everything else. I find it hard for Christians to uphold the use of alcohol. Alcohol is a tool of the devil.

There is not a poster on here unless it would be a young person that don't know how that alcohol destroys.

I ask you? How could you possibly worship God with your mind messed up with acohol?

At our church if you want to use acohol then when you are finished you can come back and be baptized and we will accept you back.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Actually, I just said that people should not let others judge them for what they drink...and I didn't say it (originally), its found in Colossians. If you are seeing something else in my post, maybe you should check into what you are drinking?:thumbs:

Seriously, I personally do not drink for reasons I stated in a previous post in this thread, and I believe abstinence to be very wise. However, if someone drinks in moderation that does not make them unsaved, that does not mean they preach a different Christ, and that is not really my concern.

I think we need to be very cautious about isigeting scripture to support our modern traditions. Abstinence is a modern tradition for Christianity. This thread has even managed to get someone saying that satan tricks cardiologists in reccomending wine for its medical benefits. Even Paul made that reccomendation (albeit for the stomach). Scripture is what it is and does not need you or I to add to it.

actually, what I have posted has been perfectly in line with Scripture. Scripture has been given, historical accounts have been given, scientific facts have been cited.

It is not I that have judged, but the Word of God. As was written earlier, Jesus said, 'Judge righteous judgment.'

Any time the message lines up with the Word of God, it is the Word of God that judges.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I have seen some of those social and moderate drinkers with their tongues hanging out or their heads stuck in a commode puking their guts out.
Alcohol is worse than any desease out there. It will destroy more than anything I know from personally experience.
I must admit there are some Scriptures that have given me pause over the years but then I keep reading and read them right out.

Alcohol has broken up more homes, killed more mother's sons and daughters and husbands than all the wars and everything else. I find it hard for Christians to uphold the use of alcohol. Alcohol is a tool of the devil.

There is not a poster on here unless it would be a young person that don't know how that alcohol destroys.

I ask you? How could you possibly worship God with your mind messed up with acohol?

Amen, Brother Bob!

I cannot understand how one who claims to be of God will advocate drinking that which the Word of God expressly forbids in the Christian walk.

Enough has been given to show this.

 

[Darrell]

Amen, Brother Bob! I cannot understand how one who claims to be of God will advocate drinking that which the Word of God expressly forbids in the Christian walk.

If a Christian takes the Bible literally and disagrees with you they are not of GOD? If a person believes what the Bible says about alcohol that means they advocate drinking? Please think about the conclusions you are jumping to. I know Christians hold passionate views on alcohol. But, can't we respectfully disagree without casting doubt on a person’s salvation, and their spiritual walk, etc.?

Acts 2:4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Acts 2:13-15 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Notice that Peter did not say, “We don’t drink, it’s sin” No, he said, “For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.” And no, I don’t run around encouraging people to drink. I recommend all Christians believe what the Bible says about the subject, including that it is sin to get drunk. I don’t have a problem with GOD saying that drunkenness is sin.

In the love of Christ!

 

[PeterM]

All the way back to the first century AD for sure. John the Baptist, a Nazarite, was definitely a teetotaler.

Jesus was a teetotaler also.

This is interesting...

His Blood Spoke My Name,

I have taken the liberty to examine the church you list as your home. As I went from page to page, I ended up on your church's doctrinal statements and I found this...

Separation

We believe that all the saved are called into a life of separation. This separation is in at least three areas: Moral, Personal, and Ecclesiastical.

A. Moral: The Ten Commandments are God’s perfect standard for a perfect man. We are commanded to perfect holiness (II Corinthians 7:1) in the fear of God. The believer is to never suffer as an evil doer (I Peter 4:15), but is commanded to be clean in body and mind (II Corinthians 10:5).

B. Personal: Romans 14 explains that there are going to be areas where the believers are going to disagree in matters which they call sin. The weaker will do things that the stronger will not. In matters of eating, holy days, etc., every man should be fully persuaded in his own mind. (Romans 14:5).

C. Ecclesiastical: While recognizing the unity of all true believers, it is also evident that unbelief and error in many organized fellowships has developed to the point where recognized and indisputable apostasy exists. We, therefore, disavow the position of the World Council of Churches, the National Council of Churches, the National Association of Evangelicals, and other associations or fellowships that would be in sympathy with them. We stand in opposition to the ecumenical movement, Neo-orthodoxy, New Evangelicalism, and Cooperative Evangelistic Programs between churches and people not of like precious faith. (II Corinthians 6:14-18; Ephesians 5:11-12; Luke 12:51).

Repeated again in another section:

SEPARATION is a most important characteristic of the true Christian. They ought to be clean morally and personally guided by the Scriptures in all things. While allowing for religious freedom of all people, Christians ought not to be organized with groups not of like faith. Therefore, Calvary Baptist Church takes a position against the Ecumenical Movement, Neo-Evangelism, the Charismatic Movement, and popular cooperative programs for religious purposes.

I find it interesting that you are out of step with the church you claim as home on this issue. Not in the specific area of alcohol mind you, as many of us are in agreement that you need to follow you conscience in this area. However, you and some like you have elevated the discussion with the repeated effort to communicate the idea that believers CANNOT consume alcohol... if they do it's a sin and will abide under the wrath of God for all eternity (obligatory organ music playing in the background).

Originally Posted by lbaker
Well this is one of those things that is just going to go round and round forever and the only way it is ever going to be settled it to just wait and ask Jesus when we get to heaven.

Les

Yer forgetting, those who preach another Christ will not make it to heaven. The Bible says 'let them be accursed.'

Originally Posted by Lagardo
A disagreement over alcohol is a far cry from preaching another Christ.

If one is preaching a christ who drank alcoholic beverages, which is very much unscriptural, one is certainly not preaching the sinless Son of God.

What say you sir... Does Romans 14 suffice, or is there another nugget of wisdom you would care to share.

 

[tinytim]

I've been reading this thread and it is very interesting.

I have a question that I just stumbled on, the Bible says in
Colossians 2:16
(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

This verse has been referenced in this thread...
Now those that say alcohol is not to be touched by a Christian, then what is the "drink" Paul is refering to in this verse?

And why would he write it?

What other type of "drink" would people in Colosse be judging each other over?

I always thought it was refering to alcoholic wine, but can it be refering to another type of controversial drink?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Amen, Brother Bob! I cannot understand how one who claims to be of God will advocate drinking that which the Word of God expressly forbids in the Christian walk.

If a Christian takes the Bible literally and disagrees with you they are not of GOD? If a person believes what the Bible says about alcohol that means they advocate drinking? Please think about the conclusions you are jumping to. I know Christians hold passionate views on alcohol. But, can't we respectfully disagree without casting doubt on a person’s salvation, and their spiritual walk, etc.?

Acts 2:4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Acts 2:13-15 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Notice that Peter did not say, “We don’t drink, it’s sin” No, he said, “For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.” And no, I don’t run around encouraging people to drink. I recommend all Christians believe what the Bible says about the subject, including that it is sin to get drunk. I don’t have a problem with GOD saying that drunkenness is sin.

In the love of Christ!

If doubt is cast on a person's salvation because of what I agree with that is written in the Word of God, then so be it. The Word of God says we will know the tree by the fruit it bears. We also read that if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

The flesh, being as Paul put it, a vile body of death, craves after the things of the flesh; this includes that filthy drink that man calls alcohol.

Christ did not give in to the flesh. Christ did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth.

The Word of God clearly shows by all that has been shared by HBSMN, Linda64, Diggin in da Word, and DHK (did I miss anyone else who preached the truth of abstinence?) have posted in this thread.

Jesus called the Pharisees 'blind guides.' Those who are advocating alcohol in the Believer's life are certainly fulfilling a role of a 'blind guide.' They are blindly telling others it is ok to drink, giving them a license to sin.

God's Word clearly says we are forbidden to continue in sin once the Spirit of God reveals the Light of His Glorious Gospel.

But, to those who do not see the Light, to those who choose to walk in darkness, Paul said, as was stated earlier, 'If they will be ignorant, let them be ignorant.'

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Interesting PeterM,

While I did not find a link for a church site on HBSMN's profile, I still will give you the benefit of the doubt on that. But, maybe he just joined that church, maybe he has not had a chance to update the bylaws and creeds.

I remember when I left the pastorship of my last fellowship after 8 years, I found that the new pastor brought in new bylaws for the church.

Not everyone in the congregation knows every line of the church's bylaws.

Also, it is possible that HBSMN has only been at that church for a short period, or maybe it is the only Baptist church in the area. There could be a reason why he is going to that church that are unknown to any.

 

[tinytim]

I've been reading this thread and it is very interesting.

I have a question that I just stumbled on, the Bible says in
Colossians 2:16
(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

This verse has been referenced in this thread...
Now those that say alcohol is not to be touched by a Christian, then what is the "drink" Paul is refering to in this verse?

And why would he write it?

What other type of "drink" would people in Colosse be judging each other over?

I always thought it was refering to alcoholic wine, but can it be refering to another type of controversial drink?

Maybe you missed my question... I would like it answered if possible.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

tinytim,

as to the passage in Romans 14, I have always took it to mean some other drink. Scripture is clear that God is against fermented alcohol, period.

Why would God tell some, 'Go ahead and drink alcoholic beverage and you will still be received?' and then tell others 'Don't touch it?.' That would make Him a respector of persons.

Also, since His Word is for all mankind and His Word says 'Don't even look at fermented wine,' why would He go against that and tell people to drink it?

 

[tinytim]

That's what I am asking, what is the other drink... reading this thread has got me wondering if there were other drinks that were questionable in the first century... if so, I wonder what they were.

Hmmmm.....
Something to look into...

thanks guys...

 

[tinytim]

Wow, where did everyone go.... come back, I want to play!!! lol

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

ya done stirred up a hornet's nest brother.

LOL

That is an interesting question though.

Wonder if some were judging the believers for a non-alcoholic wine? Accusing them of drinking an alcoholic wine falsely as they did the Lord and Savior?

 

[tinytim]

I wonder if any commentaries addresses this.... I have never questioned it before, because I thought it was alcoholic.

 

[tinytim]

before I post anything else, I am going to do some studying.... it may take a while....

If anyone has an answer, I would appreciate it..
Maybe we can compile a list of possibilities and then discuss them.

 

[Lagardo]

as to the passage in Romans 14, I have always took it to mean some other drink. Scripture is clear that God is against fermented alcohol, period.

No, scripture is not that clear, thus the difference of opinion. But regardless of someone's stace, wether they be a moderate drinker or an abstainer, to see their salvation hinging on this issue is to be a tad legalistic.

My salvation is not based on what I have done, nor what I have not done, but rather my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ