The pre-wrath rapture view

[Revmitchell]

The Augustinian amillennialism has been proven a complete falsity since it is clear that Satan has not yet been bound and Augustine predicted that Christ would return in A.D. 650. Further none of the promises made for the millennium have been fulfilled.

Also the church visible is not the Kingdom of God on earth as promised.

 

[percho]

Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Matt 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Luke 22:42,43 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Acts 2:34,35 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Who is the LORD? Who is the Lord? Who is the my of, my Lord? Who is thou? Who is the my of, my right hand? Who is I? Who is thine? Who is thy?

When was this said by the LORD to Lord? When did the Lord sit on the right hand of the LORD?

Is that statement relative to 1 Cor 15:24-26 and how as to who is reigning when and how? 1 Cor 15:24-26 Then, the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

What is the kingdom that is delivered up to God, even the Father? Another interesting verse which I believe relative is Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.

When and how will the God of peace bruise Satan under their feet?

 

[blessedwife318]

The Augustinian amillennialism has been proven a complete falsity sine it is clear that Stan has not yet been bound and Augustine predicted that Christ would return in A.D. 650. Further none of the promises made for the millennium have been fulfilled.

Also the church visible is not the Kingdom of God on earth as promised.

If a failed prediction on Christ return is all that is needed to prove a millennial view false, then ALL of them are false, although one has a few more failed predictions then the others.

 

[JonShaff]

Why does everyone stop at verse 1 of Psalm 110...

Psalms 110:3-7 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

So, how do you guys explain this?

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

[Revmitchell]

If a failed prediction on Christ return is all that is needed to prove a millennial view false, then ALL of them are false, although one has a few more failed predictions then the others.

Uh no. The return of Christ was closely tied to the founding of augustinianism (amillennialism). However, I never said that it was all that was needed. I suggest you go back and read the post in its entirety.

 

[blessedwife318]

Sounds to me that some people are peddling some Roman Catholic Kingdom-Now Heresy (also belongs to the J.W. and other cults). Your beloved Calvin was heavily influenced by Augustine and the RCC lies. It is obvious.

Kingdom Now Heresy- The repulsive idea that the fall gave Satan dominion over this world, and that God is helpless to do anything unless us great mortals give Him position. And unfortunately it is being peddled on this board, although I'm not sure they would enjoy being lumped in with Calvin given some of the statements I have seen them say.

 

[blessedwife318]

Uh no. The return of Christ was closely tied to the founding of augustinianism (amillennialism). However, I never said that it was all that was needed. I suggest you go back and read the post in its entirety.

You're the one who brought up the fact that he had a fail prediction. But I don't think you really want to go there, given that all the views have failed predictions, one more than others, especially of late.

 

[JonShaff]

Kingdom Now Heresy- The repulsive idea that the fall gave Satan dominion over this world, and that God is helpless to do anything unless us great mortals give Him position. And unfortunately it is being peddled on this board, although I'm not sure they would enjoy being lumped in with Calvin given some of the statements I have seen them say.

What i'm seeing, now, is a hybrid of Kingdom-Now and Amillenialism.

 

[Revmitchell]

You're the one who brought up the fact that he had a fail prediction. But I don't think you really want to go there, given that all the views have failed predictions, one more than others, especially of late.

I did bring it up in part not as the whole as you have fasley accused me of. Ans yes I do want to go there. The prediction of Augustine is far different from any other as it is tied to the core of his theology. Other predictions are not. Apples and refrigerators.

 

[blessedwife318]

What i'm seeing, now, is a hybrid of Kingdom-Now and Amillenialism.

Well Kingdom-Now is a hybrid of a lot of different things. Although its fits better in the Post-Trib camp then it does in the Amill camp. Those that are peddling it on this board however are not Amill per their own statements to the contrary. Its the Amill camp on this board that has stood up against the horrendous idea that Satan gained Dominion over this earth at the fall. It was that fact that actually drove me out of the pre-mill camp, because the dualistic idea of Satan having control and God trying to gain it back is not something that is Biblical. God has always been in control of the World, and will always be in control of the World. Satan is still subject to God, always has and always will be. Just look at Job, Satan could go no farther than what God permitted him to do.

 

[JonShaff]

Well Kingdom-Now is a hybrid of a lot of different things. Although its fits better in the Post-Trib camp then it does in the Amill camp. Those that are peddling it on this board however are not Amill per their own statements to the contrary. Its the Amill camp on this board that has stood up against the horrendous idea that Satan gained Dominion over this earth at the fall. It was that fact that actually drove me out of the pre-mill camp, because the dualistic idea of Satan having control and God trying to gain it back is not something that is Biblical. God has always been in control of the World, and will always be in control of the World. Satan is still subject to God, always has and always will be. Just look at Job, Satan could go no farther than what God permitted him to do.

Maybe it's semantics, but God has "allowed" satan to have dominion, would that be accurate?

 

[percho]

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Has the above taken place? Has Jesus received a kingdom and returned, called his servants and given them rule over ten and five cities? Has the regeneration taken place? Are the disciples sitting on twelve thrones ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel? I wonder if Judas Iscaroit will be one of the twelve or will it be Matthias or Paul? Let see, I know Jesus has been raised from the dead but what about them are they dead in Christ, asleep in Jesus or they ruling with him?

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Is the remnant presently ruling in Jerusalem? Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Is the residue of men seeking the and the Gentiles upon whom his name is called?

 

[blessedwife318]

I did bring it up in part not as the whole as you have fasley accused me of. Ans yes I do want to go there. The prediction of Augustine is far different from any other as it is tied to the core of his theology. Other predictions are not. Apples and refrigerators.

Oh I think people like Harold Camping would disagree about his prediction not being tied to the core of his theology.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Well Kingdom-Now is a hybrid of a lot of different things. Although its fits better in the Post-Trib camp then it does in the Amill camp. Those that are peddling it on this board however are not Amill per their own statements to the contrary. Its the Amill camp on this board that has stood up against the horrendous idea that Satan gained Dominion over this earth at the fall. It was that fact that actually drove me out of the pre-mill camp, because the dualistic idea of Satan having control and God trying to gain it back is not something that is Biblical. God has always been in control of the World, and will always be in control of the World. Satan is still subject to God, always has and always will be. Just look at Job, Satan could go no farther than what God permitted him to do.

Yep! People aren't seeing it but their contrary arguments are actually implying Satan as Lord and as God trying to regain control. This is what they are making him into from a little 'g' god.

It is interesting to note the fact that all authority is Christ's is being ignored. Instead of concurring they keep arguing for Satan. He has to be enjoying this!

And they still pit Scripture against Scripture. That investment in all those Left Behind books can't be for naught! Fight to the death, that collection cost a fortune plus they made a movie!

 

[DHK]

By the way, when 1 John 5:19 says 'We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one' we must remember the 'we' 'they' usage of the book. 'We' speaks of the converted, 'they' (world) speaks of the lost. It is not speaking of the converted in the second half of the passage, but of those who are lost. Interpret the passage contextually please.

But Christ has all authority on earth, Matthew 28:18 as all power belongs to Him.

For one to continually pit these Scriptures (1 John 5:19, along with the misapplication of 2 Cor. 4:4) against the reign and authority of Christ now (Matthew 28:18; Col. 1:13; Daniel 7:13, 14; John 3:35) is to practice a poor hermeneutic to say the least and such is contrary to 2 Tim. 2:15. The Calvinist brothers here have harmonized these passages together instead of pitting them against one another. This cannot be said of the other camp and frankly that is one major problem with other camps. I say this kindly yet it is true.

Take time to think this through. Most here will respond to these things emotionally in 3 seconds and continue pitting Scripture against Scripture.

It is not pitting one scripture against another. Rather, you are ignoring what the scripture actually says.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus prays for his disciples who he is leaving "in the world" Satan's world," the world that Satan is sovereign over, and prays to the Father that he would keep them.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
--Again, praying for his disciples, his prayer is that the Father would keep them from the "evil (one)" that is Satan.

The believer is in this world but is not of this world. This world is ruled by Satan. He is the god of this world (2Cor.4:4); "the prince of the power of the air" (Eph.2:2). These scriptures cannot be ignored or denied.
God has left us in Satan's domain to be a light to the unsaved that they might be delivered from darkness into God's glorious kingdom. But that kingdom is not physical it is spiritual and cannot be seen.

That truth does not negate the hundreds of promises that look forward to a Messianic Kingdom that will be established on this earth where Christ will rule from Jerusalem, with a rod of iron, and all the nations will be subservient to Him, as Lord of lords, and King of kings. That is not the case now.

To ISIS Christ is not Lord of lords, for example, and they do not bow down to him.

 

[JonShaff]

Yep! People aren't seeing it but their contrary arguments are actually implying Satan as Lord and as God trying to regain control.

And they still pit Scripture against Scripture. That investment in all those Left Behind books can't be for naught! Fight to the death, that collection cost a fortune plus they made a movie!

The bolded is a bit of a RedHerring...I don't see anyone as saying "God is trying to regain control." He is in control and always will be. He is letting His ambassadors live in a foreign world, ruled by satan, to be the Light He has called us to be. He will establish HIS rule and reign physically at His second Coming. He will destroy those of the kingdom of Darkness and He will establish His kingdom on earth.

 

[Revmitchell]

Oh I think people like Harold Camping would disagree about his prediction not being tied to the core of his theology.

So tell me please what theology did Harold Camping start that also created his false predictions?

 

[DHK]

The word "kingdom" is used 342 times in 316 verses. Do you really think that you can confine this word to just one meaning all the way through??
Yet that is what is coming across here.

 

[blessedwife318]

So tell me please what theology did Harold Camping start that also created his false predictions?

Oh I think you know perfectly well what camp Harold Camping is in. And you don't predict 5 times when the rapture is if its not a core tenet of your theology. What did he start: He started his own unique brand of the camp he was already in. That's why he left his church and said that churches were apostate and had his own ministry.

 

[agedman]

Does not the Scripture state that the mark of a false prophet is failure of the prophecy?

If one is to look at the failures of prophecy from prophets of the OT, then of course one has, by default, accept that such prophecy was never to be taken as literal or as implying what can be literal.

That is the case of the A-mil and post mil view. They must dismiss prophecy in some manner.

However, it always has been a puzzle to me how the same will take foundation truths of the OT statements as fulfilled in the Christ as it relates to the first advent, but reject those same prophetic statements when it comes to declarations of the future events.

Did the prophets declare that Israel would be pulled back into their homeland from nations of the world? Yes, and it is being fulfilled to this day.

Did the prophets declare that Israel would again establish a temple and sacrifices? Yes, and it is being fulfilled or in the planning stages of fulfillment in this day.

So, why then, if the prophets were accurate in the first advent, and shown accurate in the beginning of the fulfillment statements, would ANYONE embrace a scheme in which large sections of prophecy concerning the end times are manipulated?

God is sovereign and has authority over every aspect of His creation. However, do not neglect that He has delegated authority. Part of the delegation of authority was given to the enemy, to the devil.

In Matthew 4 there is this passage:

Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God and serve."
​

Two things immediately jump out.
1) The kingdoms of THIS world were offered by the devil, and therefore owned by the devil.
2) The response by Jesus was to worship and serve God.

Luke 4 gives the same account but with a slightly greater emphasis on delegation of authority:

And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
​

I don't intend to argue with folks who ignore or push back against the Scripture teaching in this area.

God is Sovereign. Of that there is not to be a dispute.

The kingdoms of THIS WORLD, belong to the devil. Of that there should not be a dispute - it is what the Scriptures clearly teach.


Which is why, the King of Kings returns and established HIS kingdom, obliterating all who oppose Him, and have taken the mark of the beast. Not a single one of the "kingdoms of this world" offered to Christ will be left to enter the millennial reign.