The pre-wrath rapture view

[Iconoclast]

Let me Get this straight, some here believe Christ's kingdom is here on earth now?

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

Yes the Kingdom has began, it grows day by day,it goes worldwide,
I believe this;
psalm 22;
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

psalm 72;
Psalm 72King James Version (KJV)

72 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.

2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.

3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.

4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.

5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.

7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.

8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.

10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.

11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

 

[Iconoclast]

It is sad to me how many people want to believe that Satan is in control. God has always had dominion over the earth

.
Of course Satan was defeated at the cross




Satan is still under God's control as we see in Job. Jesus showed that He had dominion over the earth by calming the storm, He showed His dominion over the demons by casting them out. He showed he had dominion over sickness by healing people and He showed he had dominion over death by rising again.
And before anyone brings up the temptation I do not consider Satan who is the father of lies a reliable source.

He may have been given control of the world system, but he is in no way the one who has dominion over the world. That belongs to God and God alone

exactly...no question about it,

 

[Iconoclast]

Sounds to me that some people are peddling some Roman Catholic Kingdom-Now Heresy (also belongs to the J.W. and other cults). Your beloved Calvin was heavily influenced by Augustine and the RCC lies. It is obvious.

Sounds to me like you have never heard or studied these things yet, you have not even heard these things. That is okay, we all start from somewhere.

Do not go there about Calvin, you are already in over your head. Stay focused on this issue.

 

[JonShaff]

Icon, you're right for this to work I would need to devote more time than I currently am. And to be fair, it probably won't happen. I have 3 children and a wife to disciple, not to mention Work brothers and sisters and a congregation full of people.

DHK is doing a terrific job at staying true to the Word.

Have a blessed evening in the Lord. The debate forum isn't for me.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast said: ↑
But Jon if the stars fall from heaven....are you saying it would not destroy the earth?
Click to expand...
Not sure how this ties into what we are talking about

are you seeing how it ties in yet? if not explain how that language was used in the Ot but it was not literal????

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, you're right for this to work I would need to devote more time than I currently am. And to be fair, it probably won't happen. I have 3 children and a wife to disciple, not to mention Work brothers and sisters and a congregation full of people.

DHK is doing a terrific job at staying true to the Word.

Have a blessed evening in the Lord. The debate forum isn't for me.

Listen...a debate forum is just that.
I do not expect you to abandon your responsibilities in your home, that is the priority.
I will post more for you, as I can use DHK as the opponent of these ideas.
You can cheer him on, but take your time, as time permits you study this out for yourself.
I am not here to trick you or embarrass you, or pressure you.
You reacted emotionally and I am sure you have not even heard any of these ideas put forth.
I had not at one time also, and used the same kind of reasoning that you and others do.
I would just ask that you pray and be honest with yourself.

Here ...in Hosea 10;
8 The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us.



now rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Many believe scripture interprets scripture.
take your time, I need to sleep soon anyhow, have an early delivery...but check back when you have the time.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Icon, you're right for this to work I would need to devote more time than I currently am. And to be fair, it probably won't happen. I have 3 children and a wife to disciple, not to mention Work brothers and sisters and a congregation full of people.

DHK is doing a terrific job at staying true to the Word.

Have a blessed evening in the Lord. The debate forum isn't for me.

Hi Brother Jon,

I like you do not have the time for this debate, but if you wish to study more on the "other side" of the argument that Brother Icon is presenting, I would recommend reading the following outline along with all the scriptures the author uses to support his position. (It is an audio sermon, but if you scroll down their is a long outline with various points with supporting scriptures). http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/prophecy/gospel-millennium/sermon.php

 

[Iconoclast]

I said Jesus rules this world; Dhk offers this

Does He? Let's see.
Here is what the world will look like when Jesus comes to rule it during the true Millennial Kingdom.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

So when Jesus comes to rule isa 11 will be looked upon as descriptive of His rule; well yes Paul thought so also;

In fact he speaks of it in terms of gentile inclusion to the Covenant promises;

Rom 15;
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.



Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

He will judge with righteousness on this earth, and not from heaven.

Paul did not mention Jesus on earth here, and when the 1000yr period is mentioned it does not say He is on earth anywhere in rev 20.

That does not happen now.

yes there is peace and joy in the kingdom;
rom14
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Here is Icon's world where he says Jesus is ruling:

yes I did...he rules in the midst of HIS ENEMIES.....the enemies.....do bad things!

Three truck bombs killed up to 60 people and injured more than 80 in the town of Tell Tamer in Syria's northeastern Al Hasakah province on Thursday, a spokesman for the Syrian Kurdish YPG has told Reuters.
https://www.rt.com/news/325568-terror-attack-telltamer-syria/


https://www.rt.com/news/325929-islamic-coalition-terrorism-saudi/

reported.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/2/isis-beheads-alleged-russian-spy-new-video/

The above describes Icon's world where he thinks Jesus is ruling. Is this how Jesus rules the world as Prince of Peace? Really?

yes...not one idle word or sin will go unpunished.

 

[DHK]

The passage does not say that.....2 thess says that, but psalm 110 is quoted at least 6x in the NT.
He is ruling in the MIDST of His enemies.....now

Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

This prayerful Messianic Psalm is poetry and in a general sense written in the future tense, verse by verse. It does not say that he "is" but rather will be. It is speaking of a future event. It is a picture. It is poetry.

 

[DHK]

I said Jesus rules this world; Dhk offers this

And you have ignored scripture.
Satan is the god of this world. 2Cor.4:4. Is this statement true or false?

 

[Iconoclast]

You have tunnel vision. One word can mean different things depending on the context. Let me quote William MacDonald for you:

The kingdom of Christ is seen in Scripture in several different aspects

ok

. When He came to the earth the first time, He offered a literal kingdom to the nation of Israel.

He offered His Kingdom rule.....the nature of the Kingdom was not offered in carnal terms.

The Jews wanted deliverance from the Roman oppressor, but they did not want to repent of their sins.

that is why they were rejected.

Christ could only reign over a people who were in proper spiritual relationship to Him.

No, he takes unsaved sinners, then saves them from their sins, and conforms them to His image.

When that was made clear to them, they rejected their King and crucified Him. Since then, the Lord Jesus has gone back to heaven and we now have the kingdom in mystery form (Matt. 13). This means that the kingdom does not appear in visible form. The King is absent.

Nonsense....the mystery is revealed...jew and gentile one new man.

But all who accept the Lord Jesus Christ during this present age acknowledge Him as their rightful Ruler, and thus they are subjects of His kingdom

.

No one "accepts Him"...multitudes are made willing.

In a coming day, the Lord Jesus will come back to earth, set up His kingdom with Jerusalem as capital, and reign for one thousand years

.

Jesus rules from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem now; heb 12:22-24
gal4;
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

At the end of that time, Christ will put down all enemies under His feet and then deliver up the kingdom to God the Father. That will inaugurate the eternal kingdom, which will continue throughout eternity.

yes..at the last day this Kingdom is consummated.

Kingdom is used in three different senses.
No matter which way you look at you still cannot deny the literal reign of Christ in a coming Millennial reign of Christ on this earth

He proves no such thing.....rev 20 says nothing about Jesus on earth.

 

[Iconoclast]

Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

This prayerful Messianic Psalm is poetry and in a general sense written in the future tense, verse by verse. It does not say that he "is" but rather will be. It is speaking of a future event. It is a picture. It is poetry.

yes it was future when the psalmist wrote it and is quoted 6x in the gospel age where it is quite current.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Icon, you're right for this to work I would need to devote more time than I currently am. And to be fair, it probably won't happen. I have 3 children and a wife to disciple, not to mention Work brothers and sisters and a congregation full of people.

DHK is doing a terrific job at staying true to the Word.

Have a blessed evening in the Lord. The debate forum isn't for me.

Brother Jon,

One final link -This study touches on about every prophecy scripture DHK, you, and Icon have been debating-Again it is an audio sermon, but I recommend the outline with all the numerous prophecies in Joel, etc. the author discusses in the link. (Note, I do not agree with everything on this particular website in doctrine, but I think they are right on in regards to Bible prophecy). I learned a lot from it.

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/prophecy/70ad/sermon.php

God bless you in your studies and search for truth. I hope you will consider sticking around the debate forum brother.

 

[Iconoclast]

And you have ignored scripture.
Satan is the god of this world. 2Cor.4:4. Is this statement true or false?

lets look again;
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

ARE YOU LOST DHK? THIS IS SPEAKING OF THE LOST!

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

DO YOU BELIEVE NOT DHK? BECAUSE THE OTHERS ARE TRANSLATED INTO THE LIGHT

 

[Iconoclast]

Brother Jon,

One final link -This study touches on about every prophecy scripture DHK, you, and Icon have been debating-Again it is an audio sermon, but I recommend the outline with all the numerous prophecies in Joel, etc. the author discusses in the link. (Note, I do not agree with everything on this particular website in doctrine, but I think they are right on in regards to Bible prophecy). I learned a lot from it.

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/prophecy/70ad/sermon.php

God bless you in your studies and search for truth. I hope you will consider sticking around the debate forum brother.

Good link...food for thought! everyone should read and work through all those verses it will weed out much error.

 

[DHK]

. When He came to the earth the first time, He offered a literal kingdom to the nation of Israel.

He offered His Kingdom rule.....the nature of the Kingdom was not offered in carnal terms.

It was offered in “physical terms,” that is an earthy kingdom. Part of the reason they rejected Christ is they could not understand the concept of a “suffering Messiah,” when they expected the Messiah to come in the glory of His Father and rescue them from Roman bondage and set up his Kingdom on earth. Even His disciples still expected the same thing at his ascension:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

--They were speaking of a physical kingdom that he would “restore” again to Israel.

Christ could only reign over a people who were in proper spiritual relationship to Him.

No, he takes unsaved sinners, then saves them from their sins, and conforms them to His image.

That is exactly what was said, isn’t it? He will reign only over saved individuals. You are simply saying the same thing in different words.

When that was made clear to them, they rejected their King and crucified Him. Since then, the Lord Jesus has gone back to heaven and we now have the kingdom in mystery form (Matt. 13). This means that the kingdom does not appear in visible form. The King is absent.

Nonsense....the mystery is revealed...jew and gentile one new man.

Your answer demonstrates a lack of knowledge or inability to answer the point given.

First, there is more than one mystery in the Bible. The mystery you are speaking of is not the mystery of the kingdom. There is no kingdom in visible form now on this earth. The only kingdom on this earth is Satan’s kingdom.

Jesus said very plainly: “My kingdom is not of this world.”

His future kingdom will be set up on this world. Right now Satan is the god of this world. He is the prince of the power of the air. This is his dominion. Christ’s kingdom is not of this world, and he stated that very clearly.

But all who accept the Lord Jesus Christ during this present age acknowledge Him as their rightful Ruler, and thus they are subjects of His kingdom

No one "accepts Him"...multitudes are made willing.

John 1:12 “as many as received (or accept) him.

There are many such scriptures that command us to believe on his name, or receive him, accept him, etc. Just because it doesn’t use the exact English vocabulary that you oppose doesn’t make it wrong. The same concept is still taught. No one is forced to “be made willing,” as you falsely teach.

In a coming day, the Lord Jesus will come back to earth, set up His kingdom with Jerusalem as capital, and reign for one thousand years

.

Jesus rules from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem now; heb 12:22-24

gal4;

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.


26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Verse 24: “Which things are for us an allegory.” You are trying to teach literal truth from an allegory. It doesn’t work that way. Why don’t you stick to allegory when it says allegory!!

Neither does it say that Jesus is ruling this world now from above. You must do better than that.

Just quoting a verse means nothing. Explain your view from the verse. These verses don’t teach what you say they do.

Kingdom is used in three different senses.

No matter which way you look at you still cannot deny the literal reign of Christ in a coming Millennial reign of Christ on this earth

He proves no such thing.....rev 20 says nothing about Jesus on earth.

1. A literal kingdom was offered to the Jews.

2. All believers are part of God’s kingdom, a mystery to us, today. It is invisible.

3. When Christ comes to deliver the Jews he will set up his Millennial Kingdom on earth.

--There are over 300 promises that relate to the Second Coming of Christ. Are you ready to deny them all? The fact that there are a few that give us the exact length of time of this kingdom does not negate all the rest of the promises of his kingdom and the description of it.

 

[DHK]

lets look again;
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

ARE YOU LOST DHK? THIS IS SPEAKING OF THE LOST!

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

DO YOU BELIEVE NOT DHK? BECAUSE THE OTHERS ARE TRANSLATED INTO THE LIGHT

It doesn't matter what my condition is. It states that he is the god of this world whether or not you or I am saved or not. That doesn't affect Satan's position in the world.

Likewise:
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
--It doesn't matter who you are:
Satan is the "prince of the power of the air."
He is "the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience."

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
The whole world lies in the hands of Satan, not God.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Sounds to me that some people are peddling some Roman Catholic Kingdom-Now Heresy (also belongs to the J.W. and other cults). Your beloved Calvin was heavily influenced by Augustine and the RCC lies. It is obvious.

You're totally misunderstanding what is being said brother. Then you run with it and make emotionally filled charges that are false. I do however understand your reaction as you see yourself defending something because you feel we are denying something. But brother it is only your understanding being challenged not the event itself. We should focus on this in that way, but still it won't be easy for you to do so, but if you slow down, and relax, and think it through. And as you say you haven't spent the time on it to study it. That said, with all due respect your beliefs are based upon some presuppositions.

The kingdom is here in an already/not fully sense where Christ reigns over His people spiritually. That is the intent and meaning of Colossians 1:13. We are no longer in the domain of darkness but in the reign and kingdom of Christ. That is what the text says. It has taken place to that extent. There is also the parables as well describing the kingdom and those within in Matthew 13.

 

[Internet Theologian]

And I do bring a chip on my shoulder because we are talking about the Lord Jesus Christ and His Kingdom. Look around you. You think a sovereign King, the King of the Cosmos, would let this place be infected with all this hate and vile, ungodly living? You are mocking our Lord with this ridiculous thought that His Kingdom is on this Earth physically. Wow.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

He's allowed that since the fall, has He not? That expresses His nature, longsuffering, patient etc. His 'physical' kingdom, as you put it will come soon enough.

 

[Internet Theologian]

By the way, when 1 John 5:19 says 'We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one' we must remember the 'we' 'they' usage of the book. 'We' speaks of the converted, 'they' (world) speaks of the lost. It is not speaking of the converted in the second half of the passage, but of those who are lost. Interpret the passage contextually please.

But Christ has all authority on earth, Matthew 28:18 as all power belongs to Him.

For one to continually pit these Scriptures (1 John 5:19, along with the misapplication of 2 Cor. 4:4) against the reign and authority of Christ now (Matthew 28:18; Col. 1:13; Daniel 7:13, 14; John 3:35) is to practice a poor hermeneutic to say the least and such is contrary to 2 Tim. 2:15. The Calvinist brothers here have harmonized these passages together instead of pitting them against one another. This cannot be said of the other camp and frankly that is one major problem with other camps. I say this kindly yet it is true.

Take time to think this through. Most here will respond to these things emotionally in 3 seconds and continue pitting Scripture against Scripture.