The pre-wrath rapture view

[Revmitchell]

Oh I think you know perfectly well what camp Harold Camping is in. And you don't predict 5 times when the rapture is if its not a core tenet of your theology. What did he start: He started his own unique brand of the camp he was already in. That's why he left his church and said that churches were apostate and had his own ministry.

So who is it on this board that supports Harold Camping and his theology?

 

[blessedwife318]

So who is it on this board that supports Harold Camping and his theology?

A lot of people are in the same millennial camp as him. Like I said you know what it is just as well as I do. But Like I aslo said I don't think failed predictions are enough to dismiss a millennial view since they ALL have failed predictions. You are the one that set that up as a criteria. I was just pointing out that is not a good criteria because then they ALL would have to be deemed false.

 

[Iconoclast]

It doesn't matter what my condition is. It states that he is the god of this world whether or not you or I am saved or not. That doesn't affect Satan's position in the world.

Likewise:
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
--It doesn't matter who you are:
Satan is the "prince of the power of the air."
He is "the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience."

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
The whole world lies in the hands of Satan, not God.

Christians are not the children of disobedience!
Christians are in the world but not of it..
Your views are fatally flawed.
If you cannot read these verses with understanding you should not attempt to teach others at all....you need to.work on these things yourself.

 

[Iconoclast]

A lot of people are in the same millennial camp as him. Like I said you know what it is just as well as I do. But Like I aslo said I don't think failed predictions are enough to dismiss a millennial view since they ALL have failed predictions. You are the one that set that up as a criteria. I was just pointing out that is not a good criteria because then they ALL would have to be deemed false.

Harold Camping virtually lost his mind near the end....he contradicted himself, he contradicted what he himself had been teaching.
He invented his own novelties and got lost in numerology and a host of hermeutical nightmares.
It is not fair to use him to speak for any group as he went outside that which is orthodox.

 

[DHK]

Christians are not the children of disobedience!
Christians are in the world but not of it..
Your views are fatally flawed.
If you cannot read these verses with understanding you should not attempt to teach others at all....you need to.work on these things yourself.

You were once a child of disobedience. You were once under the power of Satan, the prince of the power of the air.

Really, Icon! Do you think that when you became regenerated that Satan put down all his weapons and just vanished into this air? Were you the one that conquered Satan by your salvation, and not Christ? These are very arrogant assumptions you are making. Just because you got saved does not mean that Satan disappeared. Your salvation did not conquer Satan. He is still here. He is still the "god of this world" just as the scripture says he is. Your salvation did nothing to eliminate that fact.

Now whose view is fatally flawed??

 

[Revmitchell]

A lot of people are in the same millennial camp as him. Like I said you know what it is just as well as I do. But Like I aslo said I don't think failed predictions are enough to dismiss a millennial view since they ALL have failed predictions. You are the one that set that up as a criteria. I was just pointing out that is not a good criteria because then they ALL would have to be deemed false.

Actually I suggested a number of things. You have made a dishonest attempt to present it as the only thing I have said. Further no one on this board supports Camp and any theology he has started so you are reaching for nothing. Camps predictions were not made on pretrib premill position he predicted the end of the world which passes by a great many things. Comparing Camp to Augustine is apples and refrigerators. You have no argument.

Not only did Augustine try to predict Christi's return which was foolish since Christ Himself said no one knows the day or the hour but he also held that Satan was bound up and he lived during the millennium. It is clear Satan is not now bound but we do know that Satan will be during the millennium. Neither are any of the promises made for the Millennium being fulfilled now or any time as of yet. So Augustine was a false prophet with bad theology who more than anything tried to conflate Gnosticism with Christianity.

 

[JonShaff]

Christians are not the children of disobedience!
Christians are in the world but not of it..
Your views are fatally flawed.
If you cannot read these verses with understanding you should not attempt to teach others at all....you need to.work on these things yourself.

More redherrings. Where did he say Christians are the children of disobedience?

 

[JonShaff]

1 Peter 5
…7casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you. 8Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.9But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.

Doesn't sound bound to me....

 

[blessedwife318]

Harold Camping virtually lost his mind near the end....he contradicted himself, he contradicted what he himself had been teaching.
He invented his own novelties and got lost in numerology and a host of hermeutical nightmares.
It is not fair to use him to speak for any group as he went outside that which is orthodox.

I agree, but I also don't think its fair to say that one idea is wrong because of a failed prediction, when all the camps have their share of people that made false predictions. If one is wrong for that reason then they all are wrong for that reason. I just picked the most absurd example on the pre-mill side to make that point.

 

[Revmitchell]

I agree, but I also don't think its fair to say that one idea is wrong because of a failed prediction, when all the camps have their share of people that made false predictions. If one is wrong for that reason then they all are wrong for that reason. I just picked the most absurd example on the pre-mill side to make that point.

Your comparison was not equal in nature nor legitimate.

 

[Internet Theologian]

The bolded is a bit of a RedHerring...I don't see anyone as saying "God is trying to regain control." He is in control and always will be. He is letting His ambassadors live in a foreign world, ruled by satan, to be the Light He has called us to be. He will establish HIS rule and reign physically at His second Coming. He will destroy those of the kingdom of Darkness and He will establish His kingdom on earth.

No problem as we don't both have to see it to prove the fact it does take place. This world is not ruled by Satan, it is ruled by Christ. Brother, I love you man, but you're proving what you bolded in my statement.

 

[Iconoclast]

You were once a child of disobedience. You were once under the power of Satan, the prince of the power of the air.

Really, Icon! Do you think that when you became regenerated that Satan put down all his weapons and just vanished into this air? Were you the one that conquered Satan by your salvation, and not Christ? These are very arrogant assumptions you are making. Just because you got saved does not mean that Satan disappeared. Your salvation did not conquer Satan. He is still here. He is still the "god of this world" just as the scripture says he is. Your salvation did nothing to eliminate that fact.

Now whose view is fatally flawed??

Yours......greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world......
Satan may have you under his power, Jesus has me and will never leave or forsake me.
You can keep your errors I will stick with the teaching of the historic men that God has given as gifts to the church as teachers. None of them teach that satan rules over them.

 

[JonShaff]

No problem as we don't have to see it to prove the fact it does take place. This world is not ruled by Satan, it is ruled by Christ. Brother, I love you man, but you're proving what you bolded in my statement.

Please explain "Ruled" for me.

 

[JonShaff]

Yours......greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world......
Satan may have you under his power, Jesus has me and will never leave or forsake me.
You can keep your errors I will stick with the teaching of the historic men that God has given as gifts to the church as teachers. None of them teach that satan rules over them.

Christ Rules Over Christians.

Satan Rules over The Children of Disobedience.

God Rules Over all.

True or False?

 

[JonShaff]

I like Ravi Zacharias, he makes some very interesting points. One thing he says about Christianity is that it is clearly demonstrated in reality.

Please, for the sake of conversation, Amillenialists, would you be able to summarize how your beliefs are clearly visible in Reality?

 

[Iconoclast]

More redherrings. Where did he say Christians are the children of disobedience?

I cannot read for you Jon.....look at what verses your friend offered.....those are unsaved persons being described.
He is trying to say that Christians are lumped into the children of disobedience. ..
Read his take on 2 Cor 4......it speaks of the lost.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Please explain "Ruled" for me.

You stated Satan rules this world, I countered that.

 

[Iconoclast]

Christ Rules Over Christians.

Satan Rules over The Children of Disobedience.

God Rules Over all.

True or False?

Christ rules over all .....period.
Look at Luke 19......vs 14.....the citizens said, we will not have this man reign over us,look at vs27..
They were under His reign, but in rebellion.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Here is what is happening:

One camp (anti-calvininsts) are saying by implication Satan is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. Right here and now.

Calvinists (and some non perhaps) are saying Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. Right here and now as well.

 

[DHK]

Yours......greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world......
Satan may have you under his power, Jesus has me and will never leave or forsake me.
You can keep your errors I will stick with the teaching of the historic men that God has given as gifts to the church as teachers. None of them teach that satan rules over them.

According to you it was absolutely fruitless and a waste of time for Jesus to pray to the Father to "keep his disciples from the wicked (one)". What a waste of time for Jesus. Why did he even pray such a prayer if His disciples were constantly under the power of Christ and never had to be under the influence of Satan. I suppose Jesus was wrong and you are right. Are you wiser than Jesus?

Why did he pray as such?
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one. ASV