The Sabbath was not Changed

[Gup20]

Until we actually read the 4th commandment as God wrote it in stone.

Exodus 16 "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" and manna does not fall on that very day... not on "any day that each man selects for himself" as I am sure we have all figured out by now.

What are you getting at here BobRyan? Do you think we should keep the Sabbath as the Jews keep it? Do you think our salvation is dependent on keeping the sabbath day? Help me to understand what your actual motivation here is... do you feel the need to keep the sabbath? If so, what is motivating this belief? Do you feel a duty and obligation to do it or are you doing it of a heart of love for God? And either way, why do you feel the need to inflict your burden on others? Why come here and so adamantly define in legal terms what the sabbath is?

 

[Gup20]

No, I do not propose "seventh day of the???" but merely six days preceding and following the seventh day sabbath irregardless of human calendars. Your intepretation cannot harmonize with God's own use and application of the Sabbath Law to FIXED DATE Sabbaths or extended Sabbaths beyond 24 hours (Lev. 23, 25).

Irregardless isn't a real word. You mean regardless. I am required by my wife to correct this error whenever I encounter it throughout my life - it is a pet pieve of hers.

Ok this is actually getting mind numbing.

BobRyan -- the Sabbath is Saturday
Biblicist -- no, you're wrong... it could be any 7th day
BobRyan -- how about Saturday?
Biblicist -- NO! Any 7th day!
BobRyan -- I select Saturday because that is the 7th day
Biblicist -- NO! It has to be any given 7th day, but you are wrong to say Saturday.
BobRyan - I think it's Saturday

It's ridiculous. Saturday is a 7th day... so the sabbath can be Saturday. If I start counting on Tuesday, then Monday is the 7th day. But by convention (probably because of the creation week) we all count 7 days and we call the first day Sunday and the 7th day Saturday.

After the cross Christ applies the Sabbath to the "first day of the week" (Jn. 20; Acts 2:1; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Heb. 4:9-10; Rev. 1:10) and there is nothing wrong with that application as it applies six working days preceding and following the Seventh day Sabbath. The Christian application is BETTER because it commemorates a BETTER work and a BETTER creation to come.

None of the scriptures you listed say the sabbath has changed to the first day of the week. In fact, the Hebrews 4 passage context is of the sabbath being the 7th day.

These talk about meeting on the first day, tithing on the first day, but none of them mention no work. Furthermore that it was Paul's practice to go daily to the temple.

It was Constantine who changed the "sabbath" from Saturday to Sunday because in Rome, the sun god (from which we get "sun day") was the most revered in the Babylonian Mystery religions, and he was so busy compromising Christianity with pagan traditions that he changed it to the first day to give it the prestige in the pagan's eyes of being on the Sun(gods)day.

Does this mean we should all tell our pastors to change our worship services to Saturday? No. It doesn't actually matter what day. Church isn't the walls and building and pews and pastor... church is the body of believers who love God and each other. We can do that each and every day. We can gather for fellowship and encouragement at any time.

 

[BobRyan]

What are you getting at here BobRyan? Do you think we should keep the Sabbath as the Jews keep it?

1. I think we should keep God's commandments as He gave them. 1John 5:2

And not make stuff up... nor allow our minds to be swayed by man made tradition that seeks to alter/side-step/downsize the commandments of God. (Mark 7:6-13)

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His Commandments.(1John 5:2


2. The Baptist Confession of Faith admits that the 4th commandment is part of the Moral Law of God -applicable to all mankind - even saints today.

I agree with them on that much.

---
Those first two points may seem like radical ideas - but I hold to them.

Do you think our salvation is dependent on keeping the sabbath day?

No more than keeping any other part of the moral law of God.

The moral law of God is not a means of earning our way to heaven - it does not matter if you are talking about Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" or Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"

or Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... for in SIX days the Lord made the heavens and the earth the seas and all that is in them and rested the seventh day therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and MADE IT holy".

Help me to understand what your actual motivation here is... do you feel the need to keep the sabbath?

I feel that God said to NT saints that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 and in Rev 14:12 the saints are those who keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

I feel that Paul said "do we then nullify the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Ok this is actually getting mind numbing.

BobRyan -- the Sabbath is Saturday
Biblicist -- no, you're wrong... it could be any 7th day

You are misrepresenting me Guppy! Look at the last phrase above that says "it could be any 7th day"! Saturday? Yes, Sunday? Yes! Monday? Yes.

That is my point - any pattern of Seven days, six preceding and following and the Seventh is the Sabbath.

The Jewish application, which is a good application, was the seventh day "of the week" - that is fine! However, that is not the post-cross application.

In the Messanic feasts there were FIXED DATE Sabbaths and beginning with the day of resurrection (Psalm 118:24; Acts 4:10-11) there is a FIXED DAY Sabbath - the "first day OF THE WEEK" - Sunday.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok this is actually getting mind numbing.

BobRyan -- the Sabbath is Saturday
Biblicist -- no, you're wrong... it could be any 7th day
BobRyan -- how about Saturday?
Biblicist -- NO! Any 7th day!
BobRyan -- I select Saturday because that is the 7th day
Biblicist -- NO! It has to be any given 7th day, but you are wrong to say Saturday.
BobRyan - I think it's Saturday

It's ridiculous. Saturday is a 7th day... so the sabbath can be Saturday.

If you read the Baptist Confession of Faith carefully you will find that it says that the Sabbath as God gave it applies to Saturday the 7th day of the week - and that it was changed to Sunday - the first day of the week.

If you listen to people like R.C. Sproul, Andy Stanley, C.H. Spurgeon and almost every other theologian on the planet they will all tell you that the 7th day of the week is Saturday - as Israel had it at Sinai.

If you read the NT carefully you will see that it is often a "form" of the word "Sabbath" that is used for the term "week".

If you listen to the Baptist Confession of Faith - it will tell you that the TEN Commandments are the moral law of God given to Adam and Eve in Eden - and that Gen 2:3 is in fact the 4th commandment given to mankind - binding on all mankind - even the saints today.

It would be a nice tidy planet if we could imagine that BobRyan is the only one that notices this detail - but as you can see the group that notice this detail is rather large and rather not limited to Sabbath keepers.

If I start counting on Tuesday, then Monday is the 7th day.

I agree that we could all make up whatever we want. No question.

But as you see in Exodus 16 God did not say "make up whatever you want" - He said "tomorrow is the Sabbath".

But by convention (probably because of the creation week) we all count 7 days and we call the first day Sunday and the 7th day Saturday.

So then Adam and Eve "just so happened" to pick Saturday - or God told them?

Israel in Ex 16 "just so happened" to pick Saturday or God told them "tomorrow is it"??

The fact that the Romans come along a few millennia later and name the day Saturday - does not change the day.

None of the scriptures you listed say the sabbath has changed to the first day of the week.

But the Baptist Confession of Faith does.

So also does the Catholic "Faith Explained".

So also do a number of other sources - but as you point out - the Bible does not agree with them on that point.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

These talk about meeting on the first day, tithing on the first day, but none of them mention no work.

There is no text that talks about meeting to tithe on the first day.

There is no text that says that Sabbath is the first day of the week.

There is no text that says that the 4th commandment is now "edited" to say "remember the first day to keep it holy".

Furthermore that it was Paul's practice to go daily to the temple.

It was Paul's practice - to go into the synagogue every Sabbath and preach the Gospel - Acts 17:1-6.

It was Constantine who changed the "sabbath" from Saturday to Sunday because in Rome, the sun god (from which we get "sun day") was the most revered in the Babylonian Mystery religions, and he was so busy compromising Christianity with pagan traditions that he changed it to the first day to give it the prestige in the pagan's eyes of being on the Sun(gods)day.

That much is true.

Does this mean we should all tell our pastors to change our worship services to Saturday? No.

No matter what Constantine does - the commandment of God is unchanged and man-made-tradition cannot alter the law of God according to Mark 7:6-13 - not even if that change is made at the highest levels of men's church tradition.

It doesn't actually matter what day.

Imagine if God's Law said "remember any day you wish to keep it holy for in Six days the Lord made... but don't worry about that - just worship whenever you wish and declare a holy day of rest any time you want because this is all about you".

Does sound kind of funny to me now that I read what people are proposing.

Church isn't the walls and building and pews and pastor... church is the body of believers who love God and each other. We can do that each and every day. We can gather for fellowship and encouragement at any time.

That much is true - but it is not true that we can ignore what God has sanctified, blessed and set apart today any more than they could in the OT when it comes to the moral law of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gup20]

The moral law of God is not a means of earning our way to heaven - it does not matter if you are talking about Lev 19:18 Deut 6:5 or Exodus 20:8-11.

I feel that God said to NT saints that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 and in Rev 14:12 the saints are those who keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

I feel that Paul said "do we then nullify the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

in Christ,

Bob

If keeping the law is not a means of earning salvation, then why is keeping the law what matters? What does it matter for? Is there something better than salvation?

Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.​

The key phrase here is "through faith." The law is established "through faith." Not by keeping the law by works. It seems like you are conflating the two. You are saying "keep the law with your works thereby establishing the law through works." But the law is not established in Christ through works. The law is established through faith. For in that the covenant of faith is found in the law. The very next verse says:

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.​

What Paul is saying is that the law contains the record of God's promise to Abraham - a covenant whereby all who have the same faith as Abraham (remember the Law was not given for another 430 years, and so had nothing to do with the covenant of faith) could inherit the promise.

So let me ask another way - since you and I agree that you cannot earn salvation by works, it is only by faith - what benefit is works? Since the law has no effect on salvation by faith (though faith certainly has a huge impact on The Law) what purpose and effect does following The Law and the commandments have in the life of the Christian?

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is the bottom line:

1. The Sabbath Law does not RESTRICT the Sabbath to the seventh day "of the week"

2. The Sabbath law CANNOT be restricted to the Seventh day "of the week" or else God would be condemned as violating it, as he applies it to FIXED DATES and other days of the week. He applies it to other periods than 24 hours - Lev. 23-25.

3. Hence, the proper interpretation of the Sabbath Law must be BROAD enough to incorporate all APPLICATIONS by God Himself. This denies, repudiates any RESTRICTION of the Sabbath Law to the seventh day "of the week.

4. However, application to the seventh day "of the week" does not violate the Sabbath Law as it is BROAD enough to INCLUDE that application.

5. The "week" is a by product of the seven Creation days and our division into weeks must be derived from these seven days at the beginning BECAUSE neither the lunar or solar year is divisble by seven and so the only explanation for divisions into "weeks" is the creation seven days.

6. There had to be a practical weekly application of the Sabbath that was consistent prior to the cross and all evidence points to the fact that at least among the Jews the weekly sabbath was their seventh day "of the week" or Saturday.

7. God changed the weekly day of Sabbath keeping from the Jewish seventh day "of the week" to the Christian resurrection day or "first day of the week" (Psa. 118:24/Acts 4:10-11/Heb. 4:9-10; Rev. 1:10; Acts 2:1; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; John 20)

8. The first day "of the week" Christian Sabbath is the "Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10) and commemorates a greater and better work than the original but now sin cursed creation - the work of redemption and a new sinless heaven and earth yet to come. This is preciselywhy in all the Sabbath days that charaterize the Messianic Feasts in Leviticus 23 such days fall on the 1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd, 50th day (after 7 regular sabbaths or 49 days) 50th year (after 7 regular Sabbath years or 49 years).

9. All Mosaic Sabbatical laws have been abolished (Col. 2:16) and the "Lord's Day" (Rev. 1:10) is a day set apart for the Lord's House, to observe the Lord's Supper and the Lord's Worship, and is thus a day or rejoicing and gladness as a testimony of Christ's resurrection to the world - Psa. 118:24.

10. It is the common day of worship from the first century until Constantine and Constantine did not invent it but simply followed the common practice and made it a STATE holiday as he made Catholicism a STATE church.

 

[BobRyan]

If keeping the law is not a means of earning salvation, then why is keeping the law what matters?

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" - is a statement of Paul as inspired by God.

1John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


John says -
Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.(KJV)

Christ said

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Exodus 20
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


1 John 5
2 By this
we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

You are saying "keep the law with your works thereby establishing the law through works."

It appears that you are quoting you.

I am quoting the Bible.

So let me ask another way - since you and I agree that you cannot earn salvation by works, it is only by faith - what benefit is works?

The actual Bible texts listed above are places where God speaks to that point.

Since the law has no effect on salvation by faith (though faith certainly has a huge impact on The Law) what purpose and effect does following The Law and the commandments have in the life of the Christian?

Sin is transgression of the Law of God - 1John 3:4.

Romans 6 is all about the problem of trying to live in sin while claiming to be a Christian. So also in 1John 2:3-6 speaking to that point.

Notice the "Be not deceived" language that Paul uses below -

1Cor 6.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Gup20]

If you read the Baptist Confession of Faith carefully ...

I'm not Baptist.

If you listen to people like R.C. Sproul, Andy Stanley, C.H. Spurgeon and almost every other theologian on the planet they will all tell you that the 7th day of the week is Saturday - as Israel had it at Sinai.

I agree.

If you listen to the Baptist Confession of Faith - it will tell you that the TEN Commandments are the moral law of God given to Adam and Eve in Eden - and that Gen 2:3 is in fact the 4th commandment given to mankind - binding on all mankind - even the saints today. [emphasis added]

OOoooOoo! Binding! The Baptists do love bondage! To what are we in bondange to and how does it apply? What is the penalty for failing to observe the Sabbath for a Christian?

But as you see in Exodus 16 God did not say "make up whatever you want" - He said "tomorrow is the Sabbath".

He also said not to eat pork, and that women should be banished while on their period - since I love bacon, this would really be disappointing for me... and how many of us banish our wives during their period?

So then Adam and Eve "just so happened" to pick Saturday - or God told them?

No, I completely agree... Saturday is the 7th day of the week. You can definitely celebrate sabbath on Saturday.

It was Paul's practice - to go into the synagogue every Sabbath and preach the Gospel - Acts 17:1-6

Keep reading: Act 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

 

[The Biblicist]

I'm not Baptist.



I agree.

You can agree without agreeing the Sabbath Law restricts it to any particular day "of the week." I agree that the Jewish application was Saturday but that does not mean the Sabbath Law restricted it to Saturday.

Again, here are the irrefutable facts:


1. The Sabbath Law does not RESTRICT the Sabbath to the seventh day "of the week"

2. The Sabbath law CANNOT be restricted to the Seventh day "of the week" or else God would be condemned as violating it, as he applies it to FIXED DATES and other days of the week. He applies it to other periods than 24 hours - Lev. 23-25.

3. Hence, the proper interpretation of the Sabbath Law must be BROAD enough to incorporate all APPLICATIONS by God Himself. This denies, repudiates any RESTRICTION of the Sabbath Law to the seventh day "of the week.

4. However, application to the seventh day "of the week" does not violate the Sabbath Law as it is BROAD enough to INCLUDE that application.

5. The "week" is a by product of the seven Creation days and our division into weeks must be derived from these seven days at the beginning BECAUSE neither the lunar or solar year is divisble by seven and so the only explanation for divisions into "weeks" is the creation seven days.

6. There had to be a practical weekly application of the Sabbath that was consistent prior to the cross and all evidence points to the fact that at least among the Jews the weekly sabbath was their seventh day "of the week" or Saturday.

7. God changed the weekly day of Sabbath keeping from the Jewish seventh day "of the week" to the Christian resurrection day or "first day of the week" (Psa. 118:24/Acts 4:10-11/Heb. 4:9-10; Rev. 1:10; Acts 2:1; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; John 20)

8. The first day "of the week" Christian Sabbath is the "Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10) and commemorates a greater and better work than the original but now sin cursed creation - the work of redemption and a new sinless heaven and earth yet to come. This is preciselywhy in all the Sabbath days that charaterize the Messianic Feasts in Leviticus 23 such days fall on the 1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd, 50th day (after 7 regular sabbaths or 49 days) 50th year (after 7 regular Sabbath years or 49 years).

9. All Mosaic Sabbatical laws have been abolished (Col. 2:16) and the "Lord's Day" (Rev. 1:10) is a day set apart for the Lord's House, to observe the Lord's Supper and the Lord's Worship, and is thus a day or rejoicing and gladness as a testimony of Christ's resurrection to the world - Psa. 118:24.

10. It is the common day of worship from the first century until Constantine and Constantine did not invent it but simply followed the common practice and made it a STATE holiday as he made Catholicism a STATE church.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is the bottom line:

1. The Sabbath Law does not RESTRICT the Sabbath to the seventh day "of the week"

The fourth commandment does however limit the creation memorial Sabbath of Exodus 20:8-11 to the 7th day of the week.

So trying to game the text won't work there.

The either-or-logical fallacy that you are trying out - does not work. This is a both-and case where the 4th commandment Sabbath is valid and so also are the other Lev 23 annual Sabbaths.

Each stands on its own.

5. The "week" is a by product of the seven Creation days

indeed it is. And Exodus 20:8-11 makes that case clearly. God could have chosen to make the world in 20 days or 20,000 years - but HE sovereignly chose a 7 day period where the only thing made on the 7th day - was the Sabbath. God "made IT Holy"

6. There had to be a practical weekly application of the Sabbath that was consistent prior to the cross and all evidence points to the fact that at least among the Jews the weekly sabbath was their seventh day "of the week" or Saturday.

How refreshing to see you admit to so basic a point here. I feel like we are getting somewhere.

7. God changed the weekly day of Sabbath keeping from the Jewish seventh day "of the week" to the Christian resurrection day or "first day of the week" (Psa. 118:24/Acts 4:10-11/Heb. 4:9-10; Rev. 1:10; Acts 2:1; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; John 20)

8. The first day "of the week" Christian Sabbath is the "Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10) and commemorates a greater and better work than the original but now sin cursed creation - the work of redemption and a new sinless heaven and earth yet to come. This is preciselywhy in all the Sabbath days that charaterize the Messianic Feasts in Leviticus 23 such days fall on the 1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd, 50th day (after 7 regular sabbaths or 49 days) 50th year (after 7 regular Sabbath years or 49 years).

1. NO Bible text for "first day "of the week" Christian Sabbath is the "Lord's day" -- so you simply make it up.

2. NO Bible text for "God changed the weekly day of Sabbath keeping from the Jewish seventh day "of the week" to the Christian resurrection day or "first day of the week"" -- so you simply make it up.

9. All Mosaic Sabbatical laws have been abolished (Col. 2:16)

By contrast the Baptist Confession of Faith says that the SAME TEN Commandments given in Eden - with the SAME 4th commandment - are still applicable to all mankind - including the saints today.

Did you miss that --- again?

10. It is the common day of worship from the first century until

There is no first century reference to week-day-1 as the "common day of worship".

INSTEAD we have far MORE Sabbath gospel sermon and worship services in the NT than anything at all for week-day-1.

And what is worse - we do not even have "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" -- NT or OT.

But in Isaiah 58:13 and in Mark 2:28 we find that the Lord's Day is the Sabbath - the Holy Day of the Lord and Christ is "Lord of the Sabbath".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

There is no text that talks about meeting to tithe on the first day.

There is not one text that teaches the church ever met on Saturday to worship, tithe, observe the Lord's Supper or anything else.

However, the New Testament is clear that the Holy Spirit chose the first day of the week to empower the first worship service in Acts 2:1; observe the Lord's supper in Acts 20:7; save up a special offering - 1 Cor. 16:1-2 and call it "The Lord's day" - Rev. 1:10.

There is no text that says that Sabbath is the first day of the week.

Wrong again! Psa. 118:24/Acts 4:10-11; Mk. 16:9; Heb. 4:9-10; Rev. 1:10;

There is no text that says that the 4th commandment is now "edited" to say "remember the first day to keep it holy".

Nor is it ever edited to say "remember the seventh day OF THE WEEK" to keep it holy.

It was Paul's practice - to go into the synagogue every Sabbath and preach the Gospel - Acts 17:1-6.

Paul was not a "church" but a church sent missionary and he went first to the Jews and they met together on their Sabbath which He says under Christ is abolished (Col. 2:16).

Imagine if God's Law said "remember any day you wish to keep it holy for in Six days the Lord made... but don't worry about that - just worship whenever you wish and declare a holy day of rest any time you want because this is all about you".

The Sabbath law does not say that but neither does it say "the seventh day OF THE WEEK". He had the right to establish the practical application of the Sabbath among the Jews any day He wished and it was the seventh day "of the week" just as he has the right to establish the practical application of the SAbbath among the Christians any day He wished and it was the "first day of the week." The Sabbath Law is broadly sufficient to include both as well as FIXED DATES (Lev. 23) and extended days (Lev. 25).

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Gup20

These talk about meeting on the first day, tithing on the first day, but none of them mention no work.

There is no text that talks about meeting to tithe on the first day.

There is no text that says that Sabbath is the first day of the week.

There is no text that says that the 4th commandment is now "edited" to say "remember the first day to keep it holy".

There is not one text that teaches the church ever met on Saturday to worship, tithe, observe the Lord's Supper or anything else.

Other than Acts 15, and Isaiah 66 and Lev 23 and...

However, the New Testament is clear that the Holy Spirit chose the first day of the week to empower the first worship service in Acts 2:1;

There is not one single reference to "First day of the week" in all of Acts 2 - much less in Acts 2:1.

I think we both knew that.

So there is no "The Holy Spirit chose week-day-1" statement in the text.

I think we both knew that.

observe the Lord's supper in Acts 20:7; save up a special offering - 1 Cor. 16:1-2

Acts 20:7 is a farewell meeting that lasts into Monday unless you want to argue that on Sunday they planned all day travel (which may be correct) - and not a day of rest and worship.

1Cor 16 does not mention a week-day-1 assembly of any kind.

and call it "The Lord's day" - Rev. 1:10.

Rev 1 does not mention the first day of the week in the entire chapter - much less Rev 1:10

I think we both knew that.

Wrong again! Psa. 118:24/Acts 4:10-11; Mk. 16:9; Heb. 4:9-10; Rev. 1:10;

Nor is it ever edited to say "remember the seventh day OF THE WEEK" to keep it holy.

Paul was not a "church" but a church sent missionary and he went first to the Jews and they met together on their Sabbath which He says under Christ is abolished (Col. 2:16).

1. Col 2 does not say that the Sabbath is abolished if kept on the Seventh-day but is fully in force if kept on any day but what God stated in His Word.

I think we both knew that.

2. The Baptist Confession of Faith argues that the 4th commandment has not been abolished. So also does D.L. Moody argue that point, and Andy Stanley and R.C. Sproul. Col 2 speaks only about "Shadow Sabbaths" - the annual Sabbaths that pointed forward to Christ "our Passover has been slain" 1Cor 5.

The Baptist Confession of Faith divides them up into ceremonial vs moral - the ceremonial laws end - and the moral law continues according to the BCOF.

The Sabbath law does not say that but neither does it say "the seventh day OF THE WEEK".

Until you actually read Exodus 20:8-11 when it comes to the 4th Commandment Sabbath. God Himself picks the day.

He had the right to establish the practical application of the Sabbath among the Jews any day He wished and it was the seventh day "of the week" just as he has the right to establish the practical application of the SAbbath among the Christians any day He wished

We both know that God could say "The first day of the week is also Sabbath - so I also want you to keep that week day holy".

He did not do so in scripture - so people make it up.

We both know that God COULD say "The first day of the week is the LORD's DAY - remember to keep that day Holy instead of the Sabbath".

He did not do so in actual scripture - so people make it up.

Which is how this subject gets connected to Mak 7:6-13.

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But as you see in Exodus 16 God did not say "make up whatever you want" - He said "tomorrow is the Sabbath".

He also said not to eat pork, and that women should be banished while on their period - since I love bacon, this would really be disappointing for me... and how many of us banish our wives during their period?

you are not making a Bible argument or a doctrinal argument against God's Law - you are making a personal preference argument - as in "I prefer not to pay attention to this part of God's Word - so why not also ignore other parts as it pleases me?".

Notice that Isaiah 66 says all saints will be keeping Sabbath in the New earth.

I did not go away.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Other than Acts 15, and Isaiah 66 and Lev 23 and...

The church had no existence in Isaiah 66 and Leviticus 23. Acts 15 does not state anywhere that the church met for worship. You are confusing a missionary reaching out to lost jews when they met with the church conducting worship services.

There is not one single reference to "First day of the week" in all of Acts 2 - much less in Acts 2:1

First don't speak for me by saying "I think we both know that." For if I agreed with that perverted thinking I would not be taking the other side would I???

Second, Pentecost is set up exactly as the 50th year of Jubilee is set up. The 50th year Jubillee is the FIRST YEAR in the new week of years and follows seven REGULAR Sabbath years which each conclude a week of years. Likewise, Pentecost is the 50th day after seven regular Sabbaths starting from the first regular Sabbath after Passover. And yes, I disagree with your interpretation of these seven sabbaths and their starting point.

Acts 20:7 is a farewell meeting that lasts into Monday unless you want to argue that on Sunday they planned all day travel (which may be correct) - and not a day of rest and worship.

First, this is a GENTILE church and is on Roman Time.

Second, the Christian Sabbath is not under the Mosaic Sabbath Legislative restrictions but as the Psalmist says it is a day to "rejoice and be glad in" - Psalm 118:24

1Cor 16 does not mention a week-day-1 assembly of any kind.

Paul refers to the "first day of the week" as a POINT OF GENERAL REFERENCE that all members of the Church at Corinth identified with just as it is in Acts 20:7 - the worship day. The Greek term translated "store" is the same Greek term used in Malichi 3:10 for "store" house and refers to the house of God and when they came to the house of God to bring their tithes and offerings.

Rev 1 does not mention the first day of the week in the entire chapter - much less Rev 1:10

John is not referring to "the day of the Lord" as the Greek words for that phrase are unified and distinctly different then the terms found in Revelation 1:10. John is using the same phrase that Paul uses in 1 Cor. 11:20 that refers to what BELONGS TO JESUS CHRIST. In 1 Cor. 11:20 the Supper is HIS SUPPER - "the Lord's Supper" and in Rev. 1:10 this day is HIS DAY - "the Lord's Day." His day is the day of the fourth commandment -the Sabbath day which is uniformly used by John and all subsequent Christians for the resurrection of day of Christ:

1. Ignatius pastor of Antioch and companion of the Apostles in about A.D. 70 says,

And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, “To the end, for the eighth day,” on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ… Roberts, Alexander and Donaldson, James Editors, The Ante-Nicene Father’s, “Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians” Vol. I, p. 63

2. Theopelus in A.D. 167 says,

Both custom and reason challenge from us that we should honor the Lord’s Day, seeing it was in that day, our Lord Jesus Christ, completed His resurrection from the dead.


3. Dionysisus in A.D. 170 says,

We passed this holy Lord’s day in which we read your letter, from the constant reading of which we shall be able to draw admonition.


4. Dynidions in A.D. 170 says,

We celebrate only the Lord’s Day


5. Clement a Christian in A.D. 192 says that a Christian:

According to the commandment of the Gospel, observes the Lord’s Day, thereby glorifying the resurrection


6. Clement of Alexandria in A.D. 194 says,

He, in fulfillment of the precept, according to the gospel, keeps the Lord’s Day, glorifying the Lord’s resurrection in himself.


7. Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage in A.D. 250 says,

The eighth day, that is, the first day after the Sabbath is the Lord’s Day.

8. The Apostolic Constitutions written about 250 A.D. says,

On the day of our Lord’s resurrection, which is the Lord’s Day, meet more diligently.


9. Anatolius in about A.D. 250 says,

The solemn festival of the resurrection of the Lord can only be celebrated only on the Lord’s Day.


10. Anatolius, Bishop of Laodicea in Asia Minor in about A.D. 270 says,

On regard for the Lord’s resurrection which took place on the Lord’s Day will lead us to celebrate it.

11. Peter Bishop of Alexanderia in Egypt about A.D. 306 says,

But the Lord’s Day we celebrate as a day of joy because on it he rose from the dead.


I

 

[The Biblicist]

repeat of last post

 

[The Biblicist]

But as you see in Exodus 16 God did not say "make up whatever you want" - He said "tomorrow is the Sabbath".

Any practical application of a weekly Sabbath had to begin at some given point.

you are not making a Bible argument or a doctrinal argument against God's Law - you are making a personal preference argument - as in "I prefer not to pay attention to this part of God's Word - so why not also ignore other parts as it pleases me?".

You wish that were the case. My argument is based strictly upon contextual evidence and doctrinal correctness with that evidence and you know it. To prove my point, please site any record of the fourth commandment containing the words "of the week"? If you cannot then you cannot insist on reading them into it to sustain what can only be your PERSONAL opinion since no scripture says that.

Notice that Isaiah 66 says all saints will be keeping Sabbath in the New earth.

The millennium is regarded as a "new" earth because of transformed features. Whether you believe in a seventh millennium or literal reign of Christ on this earth or not is not my concern. I do.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Rev 1 does not mention the first day of the week in the entire chapter - much less Rev 1:10

John is not referring to "the day of the Lord" as the Greek words for that phrase are unified and distinctly different then the terms found in Revelation 1:10. John is using the same phrase that Paul uses in 1 Cor. 11:20 that refers to what BELONGS TO JESUS CHRIST. In 1 Cor. 11:20 the Supper is HIS SUPPER - "the Lord's Supper" and in Rev. 1:10 this day is HIS DAY - "the Lord's Day."

You have no text so far stating that "week day 1 is the Lord's Day" --

Were we "not supposed to notice"??

His day is the day of the fourth commandment -the Sabbath day

That is what Isaiah 58:13 says and it is what Mark 2:28 says - and as Exodus 20:8-11 and Gen 2:2-3 point out that would be the seventh day... not the first day.

His day is the day of the fourth commandment -the Sabbath day
which is uniformly used by John and all subsequent Christians for the resurrection of day of Christ:

Hint - no text says that Jesus was raised on Sabbath.

Apparently that is why you are still quoting "no text" for your "week-day 1 is the Lord's Day" tradition.

1. Ignatius pastor of Antioch and companion of the Apostles in about A.D. 70 says,

And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, “To the end, for the eighth day,” on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ… Roberts, Alexander and Donaldson, James Editors, The Ante-Nicene Father’s, “Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians” Vol. I, p. 63

Here is a great example of "no Bible text" saying that "week day 1 is the Lord's Day".

As we all know -
The conditions under which Ignatius’ letters were written did not make for careful reflection. They are the letters of a prisoner on his way to martyrdom.
...
we may be fairly sure that he was eventually martyred in the Coliseum sometime during Trajan’s reign (A.D. 98–117).

this is not a first century document.

And also that week day 1 is also not the Sabbath according to Ignatius of Antioch.

How many different ways do you have to shoot your own argument in the foot?

Apparently you already have a way to shoot your own "4th commandment is not a reference to Saturday as the 7th day of the week" gaming idea.

5. The "week" is a by product of the seven Creation days and our division into weeks must be derived from these seven days at the beginning BECAUSE neither the lunar or solar year is divisble by seven and so the only explanation for divisions into "weeks" is the creation seven days.

6. There had to be a practical weekly application of the Sabbath that was consistent prior to the cross and all evidence points to the fact that at least among the Jews the weekly sabbath was their seventh day "of the week" or Saturday.

7. God changed the weekly day of Sabbath keeping from the Jewish seventh day "of the week" to the Christian resurrection day or "first day of the week" (Psa. 118:24/Acts 4:10-11/Heb. 4:9-10; Rev. 1:10; Acts 2:1; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; John 20)


http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2008264&postcount=108

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Gup20
He also said not to eat pork, and that women should be banished while on their period - since I love bacon, this would really be disappointing for me... and how many of us banish our wives during their period?

you are not making a Bible argument or a doctrinal argument against God's Law - you are making a personal preference argument - as in "I prefer not to pay attention to this part of God's Word - so why not also ignore other parts as it pleases me?".

Notice that Isaiah 66 says all saints will be keeping Sabbath in the New earth.

It did not go away.

You wish that were the case. My argument is based strictly upon contextual evidence and doctrinal correctness....

Point of order. - you are responding to my post to Gup20 as if it is my response to one of your posts.

Technically that is not correct.

in Christ,

Bob