The Sabbath was not Changed

[BobRyan]

Gen 2:1-3
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.


Ex 16
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said,

Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.



Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is a kind of nonsense that cannot be inserted into the 4th commandment "Six days shall you labor - but the FIRST day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God" as IF the pattern in Gen 2:3, and Ex 20:8-11 was a focus on the FIRST day - as the day of rest.

Again you intentionally pervert the truth. NOTHING has to be inserted into the fourth commandment to apply it to the first day of the week. Nothing had to be inserted to apply it to any of the arbitrary sabbaths in Leviticus 23. God did not have to add anything to the Sabbath law to apply it to any of the days in the month.

The fourth commandment only demands a PATTERN of seven days, six working days precede and follow a seventh day Sabbath. It does not state at what point it begins in any calendar. It can be inserted or applied by God at any point and that is easily seen in Leviticus 23.

There is no "of the week" in the Sabbath law and so the Law is flexible to be applied by God whenever and at whatever point He chooses. There is no seventh day "of the week" found in any Sabbath Law.

 

[The Biblicist]

Gen 2:1-3
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.


Ex 16
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said,

Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.



Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

No seventh day "OF THE WEEK" found here either! The Sabbath law only demands that in a pattern of seven days, six days precede and the seventh is the Sabbath. God can arbitrarily begin this pattern of seven any time and anywhere he chooses and make it permenantly occur on other days of the week rather than the seventh day "of the week" and Levitcus 23 is rock solid proof that he not only can but did WITHOUT VIOLATING THE SABBATH LAW.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No seventh day "OF THE WEEK" found here either! The Sabbath law only demands that in a pattern of seven days, six days precede and the seventh is the Sabbath. God can arbitrarily begin this pattern of seven any time and anywhere he chooses and make it permenantly occur on other days of the week rather than the seventh day "of the week" and Levitcus 23 is rock solid proof that he not only can but did WITHOUT VIOLATING THE SABBATH LAW.

<<...No seventh day "OF THE WEEK" found here...>

Ach, nonsense!

"of the week" is the ENGLISH - idiom - for, the Greek IDIOM for the English 'week' which GREEK - idiom - is, 'sabbatohn' / 'sabbatou'.

And this Greek idiomatic way of saying or indicating the 'set-of-days' of the week [as Dr Whatshisname defined it], namely, 'sabbatohn' / 'sabbatou' [the Genitive Plural or Singular of 'sabbaton', 'Sabbath': "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD"], is the CHRISTIAN, NEW TESTAMENT, HELENISTIC, KOINEH, GREEK, IDIOM, for the Old-Testament way of saying or indicating the ‘set of days’ of the ‘week’—SET BY and SET UPON and after ITS SPECIFIC DETERMINING DAY “THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD” …

… thus placing all authority and validity and reality and common-sense MEANING exclusively in “the LORD GOD” AND REAL AND INDEPENDENT from any ‘solar’ or political or philosophical or whatever ‘authority or power’, LIFE, Himself!

What frivolousness is this, <<...No seventh day "OF THE WEEK" found here...>>!! It’s nonsense, man! The whole world acknowledges and USES it every day of our lives! But certain self-conceited ‘Christians’ know better?! It’s nonsense, man!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No seventh day "OF THE WEEK" found here either! The Sabbath law only demands that in a pattern of seven days, six days precede and the seventh is the Sabbath.

Where some wise guys define the week with the “set-of-days” that every ploughman and every plumber is acquainted with and KNOWS by the appellant, “the week”, you prefer your own expression for exactly this same ‘week’; you just call it, <a pattern of seven days>.

It’s YOU YOURSELF explaining and defining and limiting this YOUR <pattern of seven days> most clearly,
<<in a pattern of seven days, six days precede and the seventh is the Sabbath>>—thus DEFEATING and NULLIFYING your OWN intention and aim! Better, ‘the week’ of the Bible—Old and New Testaments—cannot be formulated.
Try as you like you won’t escape the CHRISTIAN and New Testament FACT AND FACTOR of real life, ‘THE WEEK’!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

God can arbitrarily begin this pattern of seven any time and anywhere he chooses and make it permenantly occur on other days of the week rather than the seventh day "of the week" and Levitcus 23 is rock solid proof that he not only can but did WITHOUT VIOLATING THE SABBATH LAW.

God does nothing, <arbitrarily>.

And God least of all, <<arbitrarily beg(a)n this pattern of seven (days)>>. On the contrary, He began it, “it having been evening and morning the First Day” and NEVER SKIPPED OR INSERTED <arbitrary> ‘days’ – meaning, other days than “the First Day” etc to “the day The Seventh Day”—later definitively defined and limited to “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”.

[Mark the Hebrew like the Greek in Hebrews 4:4, “THE DAY: The Seventh—Day [which] God – specifically / by exception – THUS CONCERNING, have spoken … in time past through the prophets … [but] in these last days by the Son.”
Are you calling that, <arbitrary> talk of God?
Amazing!]

And look how you contradict yourself!

<<God can arbitrarily begin this pattern>>, but <<make it permenantly occur>>?

Then on this instability of <<other days of the week rather than the seventh day "of the week">>, you build <<rock solid proof that>> God <<not only can but did WITHOUT VIOLATING THE SABBATH LAW>>, violated it!

Eish!

 

[The Biblicist]

<<...No seventh day "OF THE WEEK" found here...>

Ach, nonsense!

"of the week" is the ENGLISH - idiom - for, the Greek IDIOM for the English 'week' which GREEK - idiom - is, 'sabbatohn' / 'sabbatou'.

And this Greek idiomatic way of saying or indicating the 'set-of-days' of the week [as Dr Whatshisname defined it], namely, 'sabbatohn' / 'sabbatou' [the Genitive Plural or Singular of 'sabbaton', 'Sabbath': "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD"], is the CHRISTIAN, NEW TESTAMENT, HELENISTIC, KOINEH, GREEK, IDIOM, for the Old-Testament way of saying or indicating the ‘set of days’ of the ‘week’—SET BY and SET UPON and after ITS SPECIFIC DETERMINING DAY “THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD” …

… thus placing all authority and validity and reality and common-sense MEANING exclusively in “the LORD GOD” AND REAL AND INDEPENDENT from any ‘solar’ or political or philosophical or whatever ‘authority or power’, LIFE, Himself!

What frivolousness is this, <<...No seventh day "OF THE WEEK" found here...>>!! It’s nonsense, man! The whole world acknowledges and USES it every day of our lives! But certain self-conceited ‘Christians’ know better?! It’s nonsense, man!

Thank you for proving my point, which is, that neither the words "of the week" or the idea can be found in Scripture or in any Sabbath command.

The Sabbath Law is independent from any human calendar. That is precisely why It can be arbitrarily applied by God to any FIXED date or day and Leviticus 23 proves that.

 

[The Biblicist]

Where some wise guys define the week with the “set-of-days” that every ploughman and every plumber is acquainted with and KNOWS by the appellant, “the week”, you prefer your own expression for exactly this same ‘week’; you just call it, <a pattern of seven days>.

It’s YOU YOURSELF explaining and defining and limiting this YOUR <pattern of seven days> most clearly,
<<in a pattern of seven days, six days precede and the seventh is the Sabbath>>—thus DEFEATING and NULLIFYING your OWN intention and aim! Better, ‘the week’ of the Bible—Old and New Testaments—cannot be formulated.
Try as you like you won’t escape the CHRISTIAN and New Testament FACT AND FACTOR of real life, ‘THE WEEK’!

You are missing the point! The pattern of seven days can be applied and used INDEPENDENT of any human calendar. In other words, God can arbitrarily select a FIXED DATE and apply the Sabbath Law to that date regardless what day of the week it may or may not fall upon and differently year by year.

The Sabbath law can be applied to the Jewish Calendar and is applied by God, but, it can equally be arbritrarily applied by God to any day he chooses such as a FIXED date or FIXED DAY if God so chooses. The first day of the week or the day following the Jewish Sabbath at the time of Christ is such a fixed day chosen by God to be the seventh day Sabbath - six days preceding and following it.

 

[Gup20]

BobRyan, I agree with you that the Biblical Sabbath is on the 7th day (as the Jews keep it). But I have a much, much more important question for you that I think really gets the heart of the matter -- who cares? What does it matter?

Do you think you need to keep the sabbath day to be saved? Do you think keeping the sabbath day is for God's benefit or for yours? Do you think keeping the sabbath pleases God?

I have to say that this whole concept is an ultra-legalistic one. Abraham didn't keep the sabbath and he was saved by his faith. The scripture says that only faith pleases God, not our works.

Jesus himself gives a defense for breaking the sabbath showing that it was never, ever meant to be a rigid, legalalistic concept, but a time for rest and reflection. It was made for man, not man for the sabbath.

Like circumcision, the Sabbath was part of the Law that Christ fulfilled on our behalf. It is meant to teach us something about God - The Law being a tutor which we are no longer under.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.​

The whole point of Galatians was that they were trying to make the Gentiles who were never under the law adhere to the law. But Paul says "No... if we are going around preaching that we are all free from the law because of Christ, why would you subject the gentiles to the law that they have never been subject to?" Paul says that it makes no difference whether one is or is not circumcised. The same can be said for keeping the sabbath. It really doesn't matter UNLESS GOD HAS PUT IT ON YOUR HEART TO KEEP IT. If so, then keep it. But DO NOT burden anyone else with that which you alone have been asked to keep.

Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.​

The Amplified Bible renders verse 23 in this way:

23 Such [practices] have indeed the outward appearance [that popularly passes] for wisdom, in promoting self-imposed rigor of devotion and delight in self-humiliation and severity of discipline of the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh (the lower nature). [Instead, they do not honor God but serve only to indulge the flesh.]​

 

[The Biblicist]

BobRyan, I agree with you that the Biblical Sabbath is on the 7th day (as the Jews keep it).

Where in Genesis or Exodus or any record of the fourth commandment does it ever says the Sabbath is the seventh day "of the week"?

I do not deny it was applied to the seventh day "of the week" prior to the cross but where is it ever the demand of God's Law??

Furthermore, how do you explain that God could apply the Sabbath law to FIXED dates as in Lev. 23? How do you explain how God could apply the Sabbath law to greater periods of 24 hours as in Lev. 23, 25??

If you take the side of Bob that the law required this then how do you explain God's own application in the above manner? Is God the author of Confusion or is the SDA interpretation of the Law wrong, and thus you are wrong in confirming their interpetation?

 

[Gup20]

Where in Genesis or Exodus or any record of the fourth commandment does it ever says the Sabbath is the seventh day "of the week"?

Irrelevant.

But it would follow the pattern of it's purpose:

Exd 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, [which is] the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

Exd 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

In the creation week, God worked for 6 days and rested on the 7th. The Jews who were commanded to follow the Sabbath day law (Christians are under no such obligation as we are free from the law) would have to follow the same pattern. I don't care if your calendar starts on Wednesday and ends on Tuesday... in such a case, Tuesdays would be your sabbath day. First comes work, then comes rest.

This is all quite irrelevant to the Christian who is not obliged to keep the law.

I do not deny it was applied to the seventh day "of the week" prior to the cross but where is it ever the demand of God's Law??

It was part of the 10 commandments. Again, these are part in parcel of The Law by which NNE can be saved except for Christ alone.

Furthermore, how do you explain that God could apply the Sabbath law to FIXED dates as in Lev. 23? How do you explain how God could apply the Sabbath law to greater periods of 24 hours as in Lev. 23, 25??

How come we have Labor Day and Memorial Day off... even when it doesn't fall on a Saturday or Sunday?

If you take the side of Bob that the law required this then how do you explain God's own application in the above manner? Is God the author of Confusion or is the SDA interpretation of the Law wrong, and thus you are wrong in confirming their interpetation?

Who cares... I'm not under the law. The purpose of the law was to teach us about God. For example, work 6 days and rest the 7th because that is what God did at creation. It's supposed to teach us about how God created the world, not because God wants to kill the people who break the sabbath for their disobedience. Circumcision was to demonstrate the duality of those who are saved... a righteous living spirit within a sinful, condemned body of flesh... the outer flesh will be removed, and the righteous inner man will live on. You think God just likes genital mutilation? No.

Someone had to keep the law because it is LITERALLY part of the message. But now that the message has been received and understood - now that Christ has come and accomplished what he came to accomplish - we are no longer under that law. We now have the law written on our hearts. Our righteousness is no longer based on our own works, but on Christ. We inherit our salvation ... it is not something we earn. We are all like spoiled children of the rich master... we do nothing to gain our inheritance... we just get the inheritance because we are a child of the King. We are sons of God (and technically Abraham) by our faith in the gospel of Christ, we also have faith in the gospel of Christ. Therefore we inherit the benefit of the covenant promise given to Abraham as an everlasting promise - a covenant made prior to The Law, and existing apart from and outside of The Law (which includes the commandments). Just as children do nothing to inherit, and need not earn their inheritance, the sons of God and Abraham freely inherit the promise. But it isn't through the physical seed of Abraham, but the spiritual seed - those who are of the same faith in the gospel of Christ as Abraham. We do not earn salvation by faith... we become sons of Abraham through faith. We receive salvation by inheritance by being a spiritual son of Abraham.

 

[The Biblicist]

Irrelevant.

Exactly! The "week" is irrelevant to the Sabbath Law and it is utterly impossible to restrict the Sabbath law to any certain day of the calendar week. Such an attempt would contradict God's own application of the Sabbath law to FIXED dates and to times longer than 24 hours.

The calendar week is a BY PRODUCT rather than inclusive in the law.

In the creation week, God worked for 6 days and rested on the 7th. The Jews who were commanded to follow the Sabbath day law (Christians are under no such obligation as we are free from the law) would have to follow the same pattern. I don't care if your calendar starts on Wednesday and ends on Tuesday... in such a case, Tuesdays would be your sabbath day. First comes work, then comes rest.

Christ fulfilled the Sabbath law in exactly the same way he fullfilled all other nine of the ten commandments. He satisfied the righteous demands of the law and satisfied the penalty.

However, he did not destroy the law as the law was never designed to conflict with salvation by grace either before or after the cross. It has had but one purpose and that is to define sin and reveal the righteousness of God.

This is all quite irrelevant to the Christian who is not obliged to keep the law.

We are not obliged to keep the law under penalty but we are obliged to keep all moral principles of God's Word under love - If you love me keep my commandments and the fourth commandment is as valid today as any of the other nine.

It was part of the 10 commandments. Again, these are part in parcel of The Law by which NNE can be saved except for Christ alone.

It is true that none but Christ can keep the law for justification by the law. However, the law was never designed by God to save, justifiy or sanctify anyone. It was designed to define sin and reveal righteousness and it still serves that purpose. The God of grace is the God of the Law as both have their origin in Him and there is no contradiction in God and He is not the author of confusion. However, your interpetation of law and grace have them in contradiction with each other but God is the author of both. Your interpetation is wrong.

How come we have Labor Day and Memorial Day off... even when it doesn't fall on a Saturday or Sunday?

I don't follow you here? Where in the Bible does it command us to observe Labor day and Memorial day?

Who cares... I'm not under the law.

Love cares - "if you love me keep my commandments". The Mosaic administration of the law is abolished but the Sabbath preceded Moses as did all the other nine commandments as we can find specific instances of their violation from Exodus 16 backwards to Genesis 4.

Our personal obedience has nothing to do with our justification before God but it does have something to do with our personal growth, spiritual blessings, and future rewards and the meaning of real love for God and man.

 

[BobRyan]

Exactly! The "week" is irrelevant to the Sabbath Law and it is utterly impossible to restrict the Sabbath law to any certain day of the calendar week. Such an attempt would contradict God's own application

Until we actually read the 4th commandment as God wrote it in stone.

Exodus 16 "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" and manna does not fall on that very day... not on "any day that each man selects for himself" as I am sure we have all figured out by now.

Love cares - "if you love me keep my commandments". The Mosaic administration of the law is abolished but the Sabbath preceded Moses as did all the other nine commandments as we can find specific instances of their violation from Exodus 16 backwards to Genesis 4.

In 66 "All mankind" is to come before God and worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" in the New Earth.

In the NT the Sabbath commandment is quoted from a number of times - far more than the 3rd commandment - which is not quoted from at all in the NT.

And as always noted - even the Baptist Confession of Faith admits to the continued validity and binding authority of the 4th commandment starting for mankind in Gen 2:3.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Until we actually read the 4th commandment as God wrote it in stone.

Exodus 16 "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" and manna does not fall on that very day... not on "any day that each man selects for himself" as I am sure we have all figured out by now.

He did not say "tomorrow is the seventh day OF THE WEEK Sabbath"

He did not say "tomorrow is Saturday"

In 66 "All mankind" is to come before God and worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" in the New Earth.

Actually this in not the new creation but the new earth restored in the millennium or the Seventh thousandth year.

However, Isaiah 66 does not say all mankind will worship from "saturday to Saturday" or "on the seventh day OF THE WEEK".

In the NT the Sabbath commandment is quoted from a number of times - far more than the 3rd commandment - which is not quoted from at all in the NT.

Only before the cross not after it. The Jewish applicaton was changed after the cross to the first day of the week and the difference is quite noticable (John 20, Acts 2:1; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Heb. 4:9-10; Rev. 1:10).

And as always noted - even the Baptist Confession of Faith admits to the continued validity and binding authority of the 4th commandment starting for mankind in Gen 2:3.

Yes, but not to the seventh day "OF THE WEEK" as no such Law exists in scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

You propose ?? "Seventh day of the ?????" instead??? How odd.

Even the Sunday Keeping Christian of today knows that the first day and the 7th day are both in the same week.

Your attempt to pour confusion on the most simple Bible precepts is more transparent than you may have at first imagined.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In 66 "All mankind" is to come before God and worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" in the New Earth.

Actually this in not the new creation but the new earth restored in the millennium or the Seventh thousandth year.

Not correct. In Rev 21:1-3 we see the reference to the "new heavens and the new earth" of Isaiah 66 - and it is after the millennium.

However, Isaiah 66 does not say all mankind will worship from "saturday to Saturday" or "on the seventh day OF THE WEEK".

Again you insert confusion where there is only clarity.

1. Isaiah (and his readers) - knew full well what the Sabbath day was even by Baptist Confession of Faith standards.

2. The idea that the 4th commandment was not observed on the 7th day of the week - to this very day - by Israel is absurdly unbelievable.

3. Even your own Baptist Confession of faith insists that it was the 7th day as God gave it - and is now switched to the first day - Sunday.

All logic and reason points to Saturday as the 7th day if Sunday is the first.

Impossible to miss - even for the those very new to the Bible.

How do you expect us "not to notice"?? Even your own Baptist Confession of Faith "notices"!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

You propose ?? "Seventh day of the ?????" instead??? How odd.

No, I do not propose "seventh day of the???" but merely six days preceding and following the seventh day sabbath irregardless of human calendars. Your intepretation cannot harmonize with God's own use and application of the Sabbath Law to FIXED DATE Sabbaths or extended Sabbaths beyond 24 hours (Lev. 23, 25).

Even the Sunday Keeping Christian of today knows that the first day and the 7th day are both in the same week.

Before the cross the Jews applied the sabbath to the seven day of their week - nothing wrong with that application as it applies six working days preceding and following the Seventh day Sabbath.

After the cross Christ applies the Sabbath to the "first day of the week" (Jn. 20; Acts 2:1; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Heb. 4:9-10; Rev. 1:10) and there is nothing wrong with that application as it applies six working days preceding and following the Seventh day Sabbath. The Christian application is BETTER because it commemorates a BETTER work and a BETTER creation to come.

 

[BobRyan]

the Greek word for sabbath (sabbaton or sabbatou) does appear in each of the eight passages translated “first day of the week.” For example, in Acts 20:7 this phrase is translated from the Greek mia ton sabbaton. However, sabbaton (or sabbatou) is never translated as “the Sabbath day” in these passages. Why? Because the word is used in these contexts (as Greek scholars overwhelmingly agree) to denote a “week” (Perschbacher, 1990, p. 364), “a period of seven days” (Danker, et al., 2000, p. 910; cf. Thayer, 1962, p. 566).

 

[BobRyan]

No, I do not propose "seventh day of the???" but merely six days preceding and following the seventh day sabbath irregardless of human calendars. .

what exactly do you think they were using if not a human calendar - a human document for knowing when the manna was going to fall? A human document that pointed to the 7th day of each week? The same day also kept by the same people in the Gospels prior to the cross?

What sort of logic do you propose? It looks like "anything to get out of the tight spot with the change of the 4th commandment".

Which is a pretty loose way to read the Bible if you ask me.

hint - notice what the word is for "week".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gup20]

Exactly! The "week" is irrelevant to the Sabbath Law and it is utterly impossible to restrict the Sabbath law to any certain day of the calendar week.

I agree.

Such an attempt would contradict God's own application of the Sabbath law to FIXED dates and to times longer than 24 hours.

The Sabbath is a type and shadow of something else. Looking backward, it reveals the literal six days of creation. Looking forward, it reveals Christ's pattern for returning (six thousand years followed by 1000 years of God's kingdom on earth). All of the feasts and specific holidays (sabbaths) setup in Leviticus are prophetic in nature, showing us a pattern of his return. Many parts of the law are really just part of the message to us -- for example Jewish slaves were to be set free in the 7th year (again, a reference to the sabbath, and a prophetic shadow of Christ's return where he frees us from our slavery to sin).

The calendar week is a BY PRODUCT rather than inclusive in the law.

I agree.

Christ fulfilled the Sabbath law in exactly the same way he fullfilled all other nine of the ten commandments. He satisfied the righteous demands of the law and satisfied the penalty.

I agree.

However, he did not destroy the law as the law was never designed to conflict with salvation by grace either before or after the cross. It has had but one purpose and that is to define sin and reveal the righteousness of God.

I agree 100%. Christ doesn't destroy the law, he fulfills it. Since the Christian was never meant to be saved by the law, there is no conflict. The law simply shows us all that we are sinners in need of saving grace.

We are not obliged to keep the law under penalty but we are obliged to keep all moral principles of God's Word under love - If you love me keep my commandments and the fourth commandment is as valid today as any of the other nine.

We are in agreement.

It is true that none but Christ can keep the law for justification by the law. However, the law was never designed by God to save, justifiy or sanctify anyone. It was designed to define sin and reveal righteousness and it still serves that purpose. The God of grace is the God of the Law as both have their origin in Him and there is no contradiction in God and He is not the author of confusion. However, your interpetation of law and grace have them in contradiction with each other but God is the author of both. Your interpetation is wrong.

Perhaps you could define what you think I mean by my interpretation, since clearly we are in complete agreement thus far.

I don't follow you here? Where in the Bible does it command us to observe Labor day and Memorial day?

Sabbath day -- a day off.. a day of rest.... a day of not working. It was made for the benefit of man, not man for the benefit of the sabbath. It is God's name for "holiday". A day that is holy and belonging to Him and His purposes. My point was that you can call Saturday (or Sunday) a weekly holiday... you can call the first day of July a holiday... you can call Memorial day and Labor day a holiday. The effect is the same... a day off for rest. God can say every 7th day is a sabbath... He can say every July 1st is a sabbath... He really just means that ALL of these are days off to rest and reflect on Him. A Holy Holiday. The Bible doesn't command us to observe Memorial Day or Labor day... I was simply saying that just because God gives them a permanent holiday on a fixed day of the year really has nothing to do with the weekly holiday, just as those who work Monday-Friday and have Saturday and Sunday off of work don't have a disruption in that pattern when they celebrate Labor Day or Memorial day. That fixed holiday doesn't interfere with their weekly days off, and has nothing to do with the normal practice of having Saturday and Sunday off except that both the weekend and the holiday are times off from work.

So my comparison was simply to show that God can have more holidays (sabbaths) than just the 7th day sabbath without effecting the pattern of a sabbath every 7 days.

Love cares - "if you love me keep my commandments". The Mosaic administration of the law is abolished but the Sabbath preceded Moses as did all the other nine commandments as we can find specific instances of their violation from Exodus 16 backwards to Genesis 4.

Do you think Love demands which specific day we keep the sabbath and and what specific time it starts and ends? If I love my wife I will spend time with her... does it matter if it starts at 9am sharp and lasts until 9pm sharp or should I just want to and make a conscious effort to spend time with her? Is that love between me and her or is it reasonable that other people judge our relationship based on their own relationships?

Our personal obedience has nothing to do with our justification before God but it does have something to do with our personal growth, spiritual blessings, and future rewards and the meaning of real love for God and man.

I agree.

And how is that personal growth and spiritual blessing effected when we judge others and insist they walk according to the convictions of our own hearts?