The Sabbath was not Changed

[The Biblicist]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Rev 1 does not mention the first day of the week in the entire chapter - much less Rev 1:10




You have no text so far stating that "week day 1 is the Lord's Day" --

The words refer to the "Lord's day" just as they refer to the "Lord's supper" and that day is repeatedly the one that is witnessed throughout the New Testament Acts and epistles "the first day of the week" as that is the ONLY day the church met for worship (Acts 2:1), for gathering offerings (1 Cor. 16:1-2) and the better Sabbath observance based upon the finished work of Jesus Christ (heb. 4:9). That is the day consistely identified by Apostolic Christians and Post-apostolic Christians as the resurrection day as I gave you ELEVEN witnesses prior to Constantine that confirm the common application of "the Lord's day" to the resurrection day.

That is what Isaiah 58:13 says and it is what Mark 2:28 says - and as Exodus 20:8-11 and Gen 2:2-3 point out that would be the seventh day... not the first day.

Several times in Leviticus 23 it says the "first day" is a Sabbath instead of "the seventh day."

Lev.23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

Lev. 23:35, 36,39 On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein....on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you;.....on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.


Psalm 118:24 "this is the day the Lord hath MADE, ye shall rejoice and be glad IN IT." - The hebrew term translated "made" means made to be observed and is the same word translated in the fourth commandment "observe". This is directly applied by Peter to the RESURRECTION day of the Lord - Acts 4:10-11.

heb. 4:9-10 basis a continuing Sabbath observance but on the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his finished work as God set apart a day to commemorate his finished work.

Hint - no text says that Jesus was raised on Sabbath.

Hint - He did not resurrect on the JEWISH seventh day "of the week" Sabbath but on a NEW Sabbath day - Mk. 16:9 - The Greek text uses the word "proto sabbatou" to describe the "first day of the week" on which he rose which is normally described as "mia sabbaton." The unique difference is a revelation that the first day of the week is the "first Sabbath in a new series" as the word "proto" is where we get our English word "proto" as in "proto-type" or the first in a new series of things.

Apparently that is why you are still quoting "no text" for your "week-day 1 is the Lord's Day" tradition.

Now you have both scripture and consistent tradition beginning in the first century while the Apostle John was still alive.

As we all know -
The conditions under which Ignatius’ letters were written did not make for careful reflection. They are the letters of a prisoner on his way to martyrdom.

"As we all know" I provide more than ONE quotation but ELEVEN which show a consistency in every century BEFORE Constantine. "As we all know" now you must attack and dismantle each one as that is how weak your interpertation is!
...

 

[BobRyan]

"As we all know" I provide more than ONE quotation but ELEVEN which show a consistency in every century BEFORE Constantine. "As we all know" now you must attack and dismantle each one as that is how weak your interpertation is!
...

I was making the point that you did not have a first century source in your favor - and did not have a single Bible text saying that "week day 1 is the Lord's Day" or that "Sabbath is now week day 1".

In your response above you argue that you have some sources beyond the first century and not bible authors that might be in your favor. I have never doubted the power of man made tradition to oppose the Word of God.

The point remains.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Hint - no text says that Jesus was raised on Sabbath.

Hint - He did not resurrect on the JEWISH seventh day "of the week" Sabbath but on a NEW Sabbath day - Mk. 16:9 - The Greek text uses the word "proto sabbatou" to describe the "first day of the week" on which he rose which is normally described as "mia sabbaton." The unique difference is a revelation that the first day of the week is the "first Sabbath in a new series" as the word "proto" is where we get our English word "proto" as in "proto-type" or the first in a new series of things.

...

1. Your own quote of Ignatius flatly denies that week-day-1 is anything but the "day after the Sabbath". Your ability to shoot your own argument in the foot is impressive.

2. I had no idea that you were latching on to Harold Camping theology when it comes to Mark 16:9.

Iimpressive that he still has followers.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

I was making the point that you did not have a first century source in your favor - and did not have a single Bible text saying that "week day 1 is the Lord's Day" or that "Sabbath is now week day 1".

In your response above you argue that you have some sources beyond the first century and not bible authors that might be in your favor. I have never doubted the power of man made tradition to oppose the Word of God.

The point remains.

I provided both scriptures that applied the Sabbath law to the "first day" as well as scriptures that demonstrate the first day of the week was the New Christian Sabbath and thus the "Lord's Day" and eleven historical witnesses PRIOR to Constantine on the use and application of the words "The Lord's Day" to the resurrection day of Christ as the new Christian Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

I provided both scriptures that applied the Sabbath law to the "first day"

You provided not one single text applying the 4th commandment to week-day-1.

And we both know it.

You provided not one single text applying any Sabbath law at all to and ongoing weekly cycle of week day 1.

And we both know it.

Was I simply "not supposed to notice"???

as well as scriptures that demonstrate the first day of the week was the New Christian Sabbath

Not one single text provided stating that week day 1 is the "new Christian Sabbath".

And we both know it.

This is the easy part.

and thus the "Lord's Day"

You gave not one single text saying that week-day-1 is "The Lord's Day" --

And we both know it.

and eleven historical witnesses

All of your extra-biblical post-first century references were not scripture - and we both know it.

And your first quote - actually fully debunks any notion that the first century sources called week-day-1 Sabbath because it tries to identify week-day-1 as the "Day AFTER the Sabbath".

How many different ways do you still have to debunk your own argument?

I guess time will tell.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Alcott]

The Sabbath was not Changed

Oh, indeed not. How many people have you stoned for gathering wood on that day?

 

[The Biblicist]

The words refer to the "Lord's day" just as they refer to the "Lord's supper" and that day is repeatedly the one that is witnessed throughout the New Testament Acts and epistles "the first day of the week" as that is the ONLY day the church met for worship (Acts 2:1), for gathering offerings (1 Cor. 16:1-2) and the better Sabbath observance based upon the finished work of Jesus Christ (heb. 4:9). That is the day consistely identified by Apostolic Christians and Post-apostolic Christians as the resurrection day as I gave you ELEVEN witnesses prior to Constantine that confirm the common application of "the Lord's day" to the resurrection day.





Several times in Leviticus 23 it says the "first day" is a Sabbath instead of "the seventh day."

Lev.23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

Lev. 23:35, 36,39 On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein....on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you;.....on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.


Psalm 118:24 "this is the day the Lord hath MADE, ye shall rejoice and be glad IN IT." - The hebrew term translated "made" means made to be observed and is the same word translated in the fourth commandment "observe". This is directly applied by Peter to the RESURRECTION day of the Lord - Acts 4:10-11.

heb. 4:9-10 basis a continuing Sabbath observance but on the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his finished work as God set apart a day to commemorate his finished work.






Hint - He did not resurrect on the JEWISH seventh day "of the week" Sabbath but on a NEW Sabbath day - Mk. 16:9 - The Greek text uses the word "proto sabbatou" to describe the "first day of the week" on which he rose which is normally described as "mia sabbaton." The unique difference is a revelation that the first day of the week is the "first Sabbath in a new series" as the word "proto" is where we get our English word "proto" as in "proto-type" or the first in a new series of things.



Now you have both scripture and consistent tradition beginning in the first century while the Apostle John was still alive.




"As we all know" I provide more than ONE quotation but ELEVEN which show a consistency in every century BEFORE Constantine. "As we all know" now you must attack and dismantle each one as that is how weak your interpertation is!
...

Your response is a tirade that simply ignores the evidence I provided by asserting I never did provide it. However, the readers can see above that such evidence was provided and I will let them be the judge.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Sabbath was not Changed

Oh, indeed not. How many people have you stoned for gathering wood on that day?

The bloke who said that at first, Alcott, is on your side and no friend of the Sabbath.

You haven't noticed?

How many dear Sabbath believers have you stoned for gathering Scriptures on that day?

Good Christian you are!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I provided both scriptures that applied the Sabbath law to the "first day" as well as scriptures that demonstrate the first day of the week was the New Christian Sabbath and thus the "Lord's Day" and eleven historical witnesses PRIOR to Constantine on the use and application of the words "The Lord's Day" to the resurrection day of Christ as the new Christian Sabbath.

Do you really underestimate your opponents so? You should watch more rugby.

It is simply, flatly, tastelessly, dryly a SCRIPTURE-LESS UNTRUTH, <<scriptures that applied the Sabbath law to the "first day".>>

Where the mere word 'sabbath' in 3 - three - instances in the OLD, Testament is in fact applied to some "first day", it applies to some "first day" "IN CONTRADISTINCTION TO / BESIDE, MY SABBATHS' ", <<law>>, "Six days shall work be done BUT the day The SEVENTH Day THE SABBATH OF REST … THE SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD".

Silly idea it was 'the First Day of the week' the NEW Testament day says came "AFTER THE SABBATH"!

What is going on in the world? Has it gone mad?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The words refer to the "Lord's day" just as they refer to the "Lord's supper" and that day is repeatedly the one that is witnessed throughout the New Testament Acts and epistles "the first day of the week" as that is the ONLY day the church met for worship (Acts 2:1), for gathering offerings (1 Cor. 16:1-2) and the better Sabbath observance based upon the finished work of Jesus Christ (heb. 4:9). That is the day consistely identified by Apostolic Christians and Post-apostolic Christians as the resurrection day as I gave you ELEVEN witnesses prior to Constantine that confirm the common application of "the Lord's day" to the resurrection day.

...

The Lord's Day" occurs NOWHERE in the New Testament EXCEPT in Revelation 1:10.

It is NEVER, <<throughout the New Testament Acts and epistles witnessed "the first day of the week">>! ---That, is a blatant screaming yelling swearing un-Christian and un-Christ-like, UNTRUTH.

<<That (the first day of the week) is the day …>> your <<ELEVEN Post-apostolic Christian witnesses prior to Constantine>>, <<confirm (and) identified "the Lord's day" (as) the common application to the resurrection day>>.

<Apostolic Christians> NEVER ‘applied’, ‘confirmed’ or ‘identified’ <<the first day of the week>> EITHER, as “The Lord’s Day”, OR, as <<the resurrection day>>.

And you, ‘The Biblicist’, NOT IN THE LEAST succeeded to even persuade the likes of me or the devil that you did.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The church had no existence in Isaiah 66 and Leviticus 23. Acts 15 does not state anywhere that the church met for worship. You are confusing a missionary reaching out to lost jews when they met with the church conducting worship services.
I

No, it's you who has no clue what it means to worship or how to worship.

Now kindly be so good as to supply us poor Sabbatharians with those worthy examples and object-lessons obtained from First Day of the week true Christian worship in the New Testament? We do not want to miss out, you know.

 

[The Biblicist]

No, it's you who has no clue what it means to worship or how to worship.

Now kindly be so good as to supply us poor Sabbatharians with those worthy examples and object-lessons obtained from First Day of the week true Christian worship in the New Testament? We do not want to miss out, you know.

The Holy Spirit is essential for worship and He chose to come on the first day of the week worship service in Acts 2:1. Again Pentecost is set up like the 50th year jubilee. The 50th year jubilee occurs on the FIRST YEAR of the week of years after 7 REGULAR Sabbath years or seventh year of the week of year sabbaths.

The first day of the week is the worship day in Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Rev. 1:10. 1 Cor. 16:1-2 refers to the first day of the week as a GENERAL REFERENCE POINTfor the Corinthians as the day when they meet just as in Acts 20:7.

Your Biblical gynastics to deny these things simply will not work.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Holy Spirit is essential for worship and He chose to come on the first day of the week worship service in Acts 2:1. Again Pentecost is set up like the 50th year jubilee. The 50th year jubilee occurs on the FIRST YEAR of the week of years after 7 REGULAR Sabbath years or seventh year of the week of year sabbaths.

The first day of the week is the worship day in Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Rev. 1:10. 1 Cor. 16:1-2 refers to the first day of the week as a GENERAL REFERENCE POINTfor the Corinthians as the day when they meet just as in Acts 20:7.

Your Biblical gynastics to deny these things simply will not work.

GE, you and Ryan are married to this false Saturdarian doctrine and no amount of evidence is going to change your minds. Both of you resort to mental gymnastics to abuse, mishandle and pervert the Biblical evidence to the contrary. We are going in circles and there is no point to further this discussion as it is an exercise of futility. I have better things to do than to argue with those so committed to errors that they cannot be objective with the Biblical evidence and just repreat and repeat the same kind of nonsense.

 

[Gup20]

So let me ask another way - since you and I agree that you cannot earn salvation by works, it is only by faith - what benefit is works?

The actual Bible texts listed above are places where God speaks to that point.

You have completely avoided the most important question. Bob, I'm asking YOU. What is YOUR perspective on the purpose of following The Law. Why are YOU so inclined to obey the 4th commandment so ademently? What benefit is it TO YOU, BobRyan? Do you feel that you will not be saved if you do not follow the commandments? Do you feel that your salvation is effected in any way if you do not follow the commandments?

Based on your comments, it seems you are indicating that you gain your salvation through faith, but then you can lose your salvation if you do not obey The Law and The Commandments. Is this an accurate summery of your position?

 

[Gup20]

You can agree without agreeing the Sabbath Law restricts it to any particular day "of the week." I agree that the Jewish application was Saturday but that does not mean the Sabbath Law restricted it to Saturday.

Exactly!

2. The Sabbath law CANNOT be restricted to the Seventh day "of the week" or else God would be condemned as violating it, as he applies it to FIXED DATES and other days of the week. He applies it to other periods than 24 hours - Lev. 23-25.

I still don't follow here. Maybe we define Sabbath differently. I see Sabbath as simply "a holy holiday. A day set apart to God." I don't see ANY problem with God saying "Every Saturday is a holiday.. and July 1st is a holiday... and Passover... and Pentecost... etc." God naming specific fixed days as holidays has no effect on him saying that every Saturday was a holiday. I'm NOT saying that God restricted Sabbaths to "Saturday" but I see no violation of God's law for Him to say that every 7th day (even Saturday) is a holiday, and these 5 fixed days are holidays anymore than it is for my employer to say "you get Saturday and Sunday off, plus these 5 other holidays - memorial day, Labor day, thanksgiving, christmas, & new years." Just because my employer gives me those 5 holidays off has no effect whatsoever on getting Saturdays and Sundays off. Both holidays and weekends are "days off" or "sabbaths" from work.

3. Hence, the proper interpretation of the Sabbath Law must be BROAD enough to incorporate all APPLICATIONS by God Himself. This denies, repudiates any RESTRICTION of the Sabbath Law to the seventh day "of the week.

See, I agree with this. I think that "week" is representative of other periods of time for prophetic purposes. For example, six days of creation and one day of rest can also represent 6000 years before Christ's 2nd coming and then a 1000 year reign of Christ. You show many more shadows of this in point 8. Do you see the pattern? Jesus said "the man who sins is a slave to sin." Here we have the slaves being set free after 7 years, and after 7 sabbaths and every 50 years in the year of jubilee. Interestingly there is 40 Jubilees (2000 years = 40 x 50 years) between Adam and Abraham, and 40 jubilees between Abraham and Jesus, and 40 jubilees between Jesus and NOW! (I know some people who claim this is related to Genesis 6:3) We live in exciting times.

I also agree with points 4, 5, & 6.

I strongly disagree with point 7 and see no basis for "the sabbath" to "change" days of the week in any of the scriptures you have indicated. In fact, this point is antithetical to your own points 1 & 2. You can't say "God doesn't restrict the Sabbath to a certain day" and then say "God restricts the sabbath to the first day".

I think you are conflating your own idea of what "the sabbath" and modern "church" are. We go to church on Sundays to worship, to give offerings, to hear preaching, etc. Just because the early church did many of those things on a particular day didn't make that day a "sabbath day." In fact, the Jewish sabbath day never changed for those early believers. They would go to the temple on Saturday, and meet as believers on Sunday... and meet as believers on monday... and meet as believers on tuesday, etc. But no where in scripture does it say "the sabbath day" moved from one day to another. In fact those early believers practiced true religion undefiled every day of the week. They put their lives in the balance to worship God, and they dedicated each and every day - daily activity - to the ministry.

 

[The Biblicist]

You have completely avoided the most important question. Bob, I'm asking YOU. What is YOUR perspective on the purpose of following The Law. Why are YOU so inclined to obey the 4th commandment so ademently? What benefit is it TO YOU, BobRyan? Do you feel that you will not be saved if you do not follow the commandments? Do you feel that your salvation is effected in any way if you do not follow the commandments?

Based on your comments, it seems you are indicating that you gain your salvation through faith, but then you can lose your salvation if you do not obey The Law and The Commandments. Is this an accurate summery of your position?

I think you will find out that he believes you are justified by faith without the Law in order to be enabled by the indwelling Spirit of God to keep the Law and it is this keeping of the law that demonstrates you are saved. If you don't keep the law you have never been justified by faith and if you have been justified by faith and fail to keep the law then you lose your justification status.

In other words, he is playing mental gynastics with the scriptures in a circular reasoning kind of way where first the cause of salvation is justification without works but the final cause of salvation is justification by works (which he denies but claims it merely manifests you as a child of God) because he really believes if you fail to keep the law you fall short of salvation and therefore it really does not manifest you as a child of God but is essential to REMAIN a child of God.

He repudiates that Christ's personal obedience has satisfied ALL demands of the law against the justified by faith child of God and that our own personal life has NOTHING to do with justifying entrance into heaven and that the child of God is neither justified or sanctifed by the Law of God and the only role the law of God has is the very same role it was designed to have and that is to define sin. Our life has to do only with present growth, blessings, chastening and eternal rewards NOTHING else, as it is the life of Christ that has satified the law completely in our behalf.

In other words he repudiates the very heart of the gospel of justification by grace through faith. He uses the same words we do but rejects the gospel of grace. he plays the very same word game the Roman Catholics do with "grace" and "justification" but without seven sacraments.

 

[The Biblicist]

Exactly!



I still don't follow here. Maybe we define Sabbath differently. I see Sabbath as simply "a holy holiday. A day set apart to God."

However, it is set apart for a specific reason differently than any other day such as "Passover, Pentecost, etc. It is the design and purpose I think you are missing. It is set apart as the day for worship (Psa. 118:24 - "we will be glad and rejoice in it"). The reason we will be glad and rejoice in it is founded upon Psalm 118:20-23 - God's special work of salvation through Christ concluding in raising Christ from the dead - (Psa. 118:20-23 with acts 4:10-11).

I don't see ANY problem with God saying "Every Saturday is a holiday.. and July 1st is a holiday... and Passover... and Pentecost... etc."

Did God set apart July 1st? No! Did he set aside passover for the same reason he did the sabbath day? No! You cannot observe any of these days correctly apart from observing God's purpose for settng them apart and that purpose is not the same but distinctly different for each.

God naming specific fixed days as holidays has no effect on him saying that every Saturday was a holiday. I'm NOT saying that God restricted Sabbaths to "Saturday" but I see no violation of God's law for Him to say that every 7th day (even Saturday) is a holiday, and these 5 fixed days are holidays anymore than it is for my employer to say "you get Saturday and Sunday off, plus these 5 other holidays - memorial day, Labor day, thanksgiving, christmas, & new years." Just because my employer gives me those 5 holidays off has no effect whatsoever on getting Saturdays and Sundays off. Both holidays and weekends are "days off" or "sabbaths" from work.

The Sabbath Law has a distinct purpose regardless of what day it may be applied to. If that purpose is disregarded, you just as well disregard the day it is applied to altogether as it becomes meaningless.

You are right that God can arbritrarily apply Sabbath law to any day he sees fit. However, Leviticus 23-25 is MESSIANIC applications and in all of these cases the emphasis falls on a FIRST DAY Sabbath under the new covenant administration of the new covenant which did not begin until the coming of Christ. The Sabbath is set apart to remember not only God's work of creation but God's work of redemption (Deut. 5). However, under the new covenant there is a greater and better work of redemption then they type under the Old Covenant and there is a greater and better creation yet to come.

See, I agree with this. I think that "week" is representative of other periods of time for prophetic purposes. For example, six days of creation and one day of rest can also represent 6000 years before Christ's 2nd coming and then a 1000 year reign of Christ. You show many more shadows of this in point 8. Do you see the pattern? Jesus said "the man who sins is a slave to sin." Here we have the slaves being set free after 7 years, and after 7 sabbaths and every 50 years in the year of jubilee. Interestingly there is 40 Jubilees (2000 years = 40 x 50 years) between Adam and Abraham, and 40 jubilees between Abraham and Jesus, and 40 jubilees between Jesus and NOW! (I know some people who claim this is related to Genesis 6:3) We live in exciting times.

Exactly. There is an eight millennimum coming where once again God can look upon all of creation - a new creation and say "very good." The New Covenant Sabbath commemorates this BETTER creation and redemption. The old covenant Jewish sabbath will be fulfilled in the seventh thousandth year with the destruction of this current heaven and earth.

I strongly disagree with point 7 and see no basis for "the sabbath" to "change" days of the week in any of the scriptures you have indicated. In fact, this point is antithetical to your own points 1 & 2. You can't say "God doesn't restrict the Sabbath to a certain day" and then say "God restricts the sabbath to the first day".

What God "can" do and what he "does" do are not one and the same. God is a God of order and purpose. It is no accident that the seventh day in a pattern of seven days concludes and introduces six working days thus standing at the last and at the first of six working days. It is no accident the seventh sabbatical month is also the first month in the Jewish new year and it begins with a first day sabbath. It is no accident that the whole feasts of Leviticus 23-25 are Messianic and types of the New Covenant which emphasize sabbaths on the first, eighths, fifteenths and twenty second in contrast to what would have emphasized the seventh day of the week Sabbath on the seventh, fourteenth, twenty-first and twenty-eighth.

It is no accident that Psalm 118:24 explicitly states there is a "day" which God has "made" that contextually must refer to the resurrection day of Christ (Psa. 118:20-23 with Acts 4:10-11). It is no accident that the Hebrew term translated "made" is the same Hebrew term used to describe the observance in the fourth commandment.

It is no accident that Mark 16:9 substitutes the Greek word "proto" for the commonly used "mia" (Mk. 16:2) and the singular "sabbatou" for the commonly used plural "sabbaton" (Mk. 16:2) to describe the first resurrection Sunday. The term "proto" refers to the first in a new series and the singular "sabbatou" is the normal term used for the fourth commandment Sabbath whereas the plural "sabbaton" is the normal word used for the first day of the week with "mia" (Mk. 16:2). This is no accident.

It is no accident that Hebrew 4:2-3 claims that all saints before and after the cross entered into the fourth commandment Sabbath by faith in the Gospel rest but there is yet a future rest (Heb. 4:11) that must entered yet that gives complete fulfillment to the Creation Sabbath rest - a rest for the WHOLE person, spirit, soul and body of a new creation yet to come that Joshua's rest (Palestine) and David's rest (from enemies) are only types and therefore there remains a "sabbatismos" sabbath day observance for the people of God based upon the singular work of a singular person (Heb. 4:10) that is comparible to the work of God and that "he" rested as God "rested" thus setting apart the Sabbath to commemorate that work - Sunday - Psalm 118:24/Acts 4:10-11.

 

[The Biblicist]

I think you are conflating your own idea of what "the sabbath" and modern "church" are.

I did not base my position on "modern" church practice but upon scripture and the earliest traditions PRIOR TO Constantine.

Does Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Heb. 4:9-10 and Rev. 1:10 refer to the modern church?

Just because the early church did many of those things on a particular day didn't make that day a "sabbath day."

If your reasoning were correct than any day is just as good as another. However, what purpose is there in calling a particular day "The Lord's day" if your idea were true? If your idea were true than every day is the "Lord's day" and so to make such a statement would be frivilous and without meaning. The repetitious manner in which the "first day of the week" is found in regard to the church and its worship implies differently (Jn. 20:1,9,19; Acts 2:1; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2). the Messianic feasts and prophesies repeated emphasis of such a day would be meaningless as well if your position were true.

In fact, the Jewish sabbath day never changed for those early believers. They would go to the temple on Saturday, and meet as believers on Sunday...

They also kept other Jewish vows and ordinances that had been fulfilled as this was part of the Jewish culture and not contrary to the gospel as they were types of the same. But they also took up the new ordinances established under the New Testament public administration. They did not meet as a church on Saturday but only on Sunday as the regular repeated day of worship as indicated by the wording in Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor. 16:1-2 and Rev. 1:10. That does not deny they could not meet on any other day for worship but no other day was called "The Lord's Day" and that designation is meaningless by your interpetation.

 

[Gup20]

I think you will find out that he believes you are justified by faith without the Law in order to be enabled by the indwelling Spirit of God to keep the Law and it is this keeping of the law that demonstrates you are saved. If you don't keep the law you have never been justified by faith and if you have been justified by faith and fail to keep the law then you lose your justification status. ...

I think you and I have the same analysis of BobRyan's theological perspective here, but I want to hear from BobRyan how he defines it. It's possible we are missing something of BobRyan's heart here. I'd still like to see how he answers the question.

BobRyan, I'll show you my playbook on this - I expect that you will answer that my analysis and The Biblicist's analysis are substantially accurate. You will reference James 2 to show that you can't have faith without corresponding action, and you will equivocate that with The Law. I surmise that you see them as inseparable, and therefore equivocal.

My strategy will then be to show you that, while they are inseparable, they are not equivocal. I'll reference Galatians 3:1-3 to show that we are not saved by works, and since we cannot be saved by works we also cannot be "unsaved" (perfected) by works. I will attempt to show that salvation is not transacted in works, but in faith.

I think that The Bliblicist is right - works are an outworking of growth, and of our love for God. Our salvation is based upon God's righteousness in the person of Jesus Christ. Our salvation is not, in any way, shape, or form dependent upon or modified by our own righteousness. We are saved by applying Christ's righteousness to ourselves.

Works can and do demonstrate what we believe. Our belief is what qualifies us as sons of God (descendants of Abraham) and therefore qualified to INHERIT (not earn) eternal life. If we have faith without works we still qualify (think of the prodigal son). If we have works without faith we do not qualify. God judges the heart, while men judge the actions. Like a baby can't really move or do anything until they grow and mature, the baby Christian requires milk and can't do good works until they begin to grow up in God. You can't feign spiritual growth with works - you can try, but it will always be difficult and a burden.

Think of the metaphor of the Vine. God is the Vine and we are the branches. The fruit of our lives (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control) is a direct result of what flows through us from the root. Similarly, our good works flow through us as a result of our fruit, which is a result of our salvation - our connection to the Vine. Our connection to the vine is not a condition of the good works, but the good works are an eventual result of the connection to the vine. Good works in the analogy of the vine would be the consumption of the fruit by others, not the fruit itself (just as Jesus looked to the fig tree to consume it's fruit).

Now Jesus does talk about dead branches being pruned who bear no fruit... but the fruit is not the good works themselves... the good works are a result of the fruit. The branches that are culled are not the ones without good works... they are the ones without the fruit. The fruit are those characteristics of God (love joy peace, etc). They are a change and transformed life, attitude, and character.

Just like James talks about lust leading to sin leading to death, in Christ faith, leads to fruit which leads to life and good works.

 

[Gup20]

However, it is set apart for a specific reason differently than any other day such as "Passover, Pentecost, etc. It is the design and purpose I think you are missing. It is set apart as the day for worship (Psa. 118:24 - "we will be glad and rejoice in it"). The reason we will be glad and rejoice in it is founded upon Psalm 118:20-23 - God's special work of salvation through Christ concluding in raising Christ from the dead - (Psa. 118:20-23 with acts 4:10-11).

Right, but I still don't see how setting apart every 7th day for worship has any bearing on setting apart other specific sabbath days for other specific purposes. Just because I take the 4th of July off to celebrate independence day doesn't change the purpose I take Saturday off from work every week. Just because God creates feast sabbaths doesn't modify His purpose or use of the 7th day sabbath.

Did God set apart July 1st? No! Did he set aside passover for the same reason he did the sabbath day? No! You cannot observe any of these days correctly apart from observing God's purpose for settng them apart and that purpose is not the same but distinctly different for each.

Right... but just because God has different purposes for different sabbath days doesn't negate any of the other days. Passover does't negate Weeks... Weeks doesn't negate the 7th day sabbath purpose. There are many holy holidays with varying purposes... the thing they have in common is that (for one reason or another) God set them apart and made them a holy day in which no work was to be done - a sabbath.

I agree with your overall point that a sabbath can be any day and is not restricted to Saturday... I just think this particular line of reasoning doesn't really drive home that point because there is nothing to restrict the definition of sabbath to the weekly 7th day event rather than a feast or festival. I think you are trying to say that the sabbath isn't restricted to a particular day because these feasts and festivals are also called sabbaths and they are on fixed dates... but it's not a great argument (though I agree with it) because there is nothing that ties or restricts the definition of sabbath to meaning only the 7th day sabbath. You have to assume a very rigid definition of sabbath to mean only 7th day sabbaths, in which case you undo the argument that feasts are called sabbaths also. If you assume the opposite is true, you have assumed the point you are trying to make by the argument.... so it's not a good argument. Like I said... I agree with the overall premise, but this particular argument for that premise is a bit confusing for me.

You are right that God can arbritrarily apply Sabbath law to any day he sees fit. However, Leviticus 23-25 is MESSIANIC applications and in all of these cases the emphasis falls on a FIRST DAY Sabbath under the new covenant administration of the new covenant which did not begin until the coming of Christ.

My point is simply that I think those messianic applications were always meant to be the primary applications. I don't think the main purpose was ever because God wants to punish those who don't follow the sabbath law, bur rather than God was trying to convey a message about Christ and about our future and he understands humans enough to know that being spiritually dead and unable to receive the message with our spirit, we needed the message to be driven into the flesh for us to understand it (just like circumcision). In other words, IT WAS NEVER REALLY ABOUT THE WORKS... IT'S PRIMARY PURPOSE WAS THE MESSAGE CONTAINED IN THE WORKS.

What God "can" do and what he "does" do are not one and the same. God is a God of order and purpose. It is no accident that ...

I agree. It is no accident, but I don't think the primary purpose was to physically observe certain rituals on certain days in perpetuity... think the primary purpose was for God to tell us something about Himself, and our future.