The Shroud of Turin

[Amy.G]

Amy, do you want to "put billy out" out of the baptist family of faith.

I never said that. But why would someone stay in a particular denomination whose doctrines they totally disagree with? Especially when there are soooo many denoms they can chose from?

Billy is certainly no threat to any one on this board, if fact, he challenges each and every one of us to think deeper and more critically of our own established postions. That can be a good thing.

I don't feel threatened by Billy. Not one bit. He doesn't challenge me in the least because I am firmly grounded in the scriptures which disagree with his theology. I will stick with the scriptures.

Remember, it was primarily due to our Catholic brothers in Christ, that had a seminal role in the canonization of our precious scriptures.

No they didn't.

It is my personal and humble opinion that we should be careful to worship the God of the Bible and not the Bible itself.

I worship the Lord Jesus Christ and the Bible is His word, therefore I believe what my God says.

 

[DHK]

Amy, do you want to "put billy out" out of the baptist family of faith. Aren't we believers (christians) first, and second (distantly second) members of some denomination etc.

I am sure Amy doesn't care what Billy is, and neither do I for that matter. What I do care is about honesty and deceit. To claim one thing and believe another is dishonest. To claim to be a Baptist and post like a Muslim who is carrying out a Jihad is dishonest, likewise posting like a Catholic all the while claiming to be a Baptist is dishonest. Why the dishonesty?

The essence of baptists and protestantism in general is for the individual believer to have the freedom (spirtually speaking) to read, study and interpret scripture under the leadership of the Holy Spirit as they are so moved.

That is the essence of soul liberty--a doctrine that the RCC hates, BTW.
Maybe that is why Billy is under the guise of a Baptist. I will defend the rights of a J.W. to believe what he believes to be true, even though I don't agree with him. That is soul liberty. But the moment that same J.W. starts claiming to be a J.W. I will condemn him for dishonesty and slander. This is Billy's position.

Billy is certainly no threat to any one on this board, if fact, he challenges each and every one of us to think deeper and more critically of our own established postions. That can be a good thing.

Only if he is honest with us. But he is not being honest. Look at the church he is posting as his home church. Its statement of faith (SBC) does not believe the same things that Billy does. That makes Billy a fraud.

Remember, it was primarily due to our Catholic brothers in Christ, that had a seminal role in the canonization of our precious scriptures. It is my personal and humble opinion that we should be careful to worship the God of the Bible and not the Bible itself.

That's a lark. You have been brainwashed by RCC propaganda. The RCC had nothing to do with our Canon of Scripture. It was in existence by the end of the first century far before the RCC ever came into existence which was in the 4th century.

 

[BillySunday1935]

That is the essence of soul liberty--a doctrine that the RCC hates, BTW.
Maybe that is why Billy is under the guise of a Baptist. I will defend the rights of a J.W. to believe what he believes to be true, even though I don't agree with him. That is soul liberty. But the moment that same J.W. starts claiming to be a J.W.[Baptist]I will condemn him for dishonesty and slander. This is Billy's position.

How does slander fit into the equation?

Only if he is honest with us. But he is not being honest. Look at the church he is posting as his home church. Its statement of faith (SBC) does not believe the same things that Billy does. That makes Billy a fraud.

Prove that I am being dishonest. Prove that I am a deceiver, a fraud, and a liar. Wait - you cannot! Look, I'm no less a Baptist because I don't hate the Catholic Church than our Free Will Baptist Brother's are because they believe one can lose one's salvation.

You've already given me one demerit for supposedly "falsifying" my registration. What's next - double secret probation?

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

Billy, I'm just wondering. If you are a Baptist, why so?

I was born and raised a Baptist and all of my family (well, with the exception of one cousin who is Episcopalian) is Baptist going back over 150 years. They founded several Churches in our area and have served in practically all positions within the Church. My dad even told me that the KKK was once deeply involved in the Church founded by my grandparents – they go way back.

You obviously have major problems with Baptist doctrine...

Well, you must define your terms here. What Baptist doctrine(s) are you talking about? I mean there are soooo many different denominations out there, that it’s very hard to answer such a question.

...and prefer the RCC doctrine instead. Why would you stay in the Baptist church? Why not convert to Catholicism?

I never said that I prefered RCC doctrine in lieu of Baptist doctrine. Are you trying to convert me to Catholicism? Careful - lest DHK swoop in and give you a demerit.


Peace!

 

[DHK]

How does slander fit into the equation?

The Baptist name is a time-honored name. As a Baptist I would consider it slander for you to claim yourself a Baptist and post Catholic doctrine. It is slander to Baptists in general. Baptists don't believe what you post. It is slanderous for you to represent your church and the SBC in the way that you do. So be honest with us and the board.

Prove that I am being dishonest. Prove that I am a deceiver, a fraud, and a liar. Wait - you cannot! Look, I'm no less a Baptist because I don't hate the Catholic Church than our Free Will Baptist Brother's are because they believe one can lose one's salvation.

We have done that over and over again.
For example, no Baptist believes in baptismal regeneration as you do. That alone is sufficient to say that you are not a Baptist. Yes the proof is in the pudding. The proof is in what you post. The proof is in the comparison of the SBC statement of faith compared to what you post on the board. They are two different things.
"By their fruits ye shall know them.

You've already given me one demerit for supposedly "falsifying" my registration. What's next - double secret probation?

Peace!

Do you need another. Baptists do not believe the doctrine that you are posting. How can you be a Baptist, as you put in your profile, and then post like a Catholic?

 

[DHK]

Billy:

Although every Baptist church has its own statement of faith most of them are quite similar to each other. There are, however, certain distinctives which make Baptists unique and different from other denominations. These are Baptist Distinctives. How do you line up with them? Are you a Baptist?

1. The Bible is the final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. (sola scriptura)


2. Each church is composed of a regenerated baptized (by immersion) membership.


3. Each church is autonomous from one another (no denomination).


4. Priesthood of the believer (we all are priests before God—no hierarchy)


5. Soul liberty (the right to believe as the Holy Spirit directs—within the confines of what you have agreed to in that local church’s statement of faith).


6. Immersion of the believer and the Lord’s Table are the only two ordinances, and they are given exclusively to the local church.



7. Separation of church and state.


8. Separation personally and ecclesiastically.

 

[rbell]

Prove that I am being dishonest. Prove that I am a deceiver, a fraud, and a liar. Wait - you cannot! Look, I'm no less a Baptist because I don't hate the Catholic Church than our Free Will Baptist Brother's are because they believe one can lose one's salvation.

Garbage.

You hold to Catholic theology, down to the very papal edict.

You haven't posted one thing in here consistent with Baptist theology.

You're not even willing to question erroneous Catholic theology (actually, you defend every Catholic theology brought up).

You're a Catholic.

You're lying about your "Baptist" status.

You're a fraud.

 

[BillySunday1935]

The Baptist name is a time-honored name. As a Baptist I would consider it slander for you to claim yourself a Baptist and post Catholic doctrine. It is slander to Baptists in general. Baptists don't believe what you post. It is slanderous for you to represent your church and the SBC in the way that you do. So be honest with us and the board.

Well, the forum rules and user agreement do not state that...

We have done that over and over again.
For example, no Baptist believes in baptismal regeneration as you do.

This Baptist does...

Do you need another. Baptists do not believe the doctrine that you are posting. How can you be a Baptist, as you put in your profile, and then post like a Catholic?

What if I'm an Episcopalian masquerading as a Baptist? Or an Anglican? Or a Lutheran? Why are you people so hung up on the Catholic Church?

Peace!

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Garbage.

You hold to Catholic theology, down to the very papal edict.

You haven't posted one thing in here consistent with Baptist theology.

You're not even willing to question erroneous Catholic theology (actually, you defend every Catholic theology brought up).

You're a Catholic.

You're lying about your "Baptist" status.

You're a fraud.

I was a Baptist, attending a Baptist Church for almost a year while developing Catholic theological views before I finally left...had many, many pastoral counseling sessions about my Catholic theological leanings...so even my pastor knew...still, I was on the Church roll in good standing and a "Baptist"...

In XC
-

 

[BillySunday1935]

Garbage.

You hold to Catholic theology, down to the very papal edict.

You haven't posted one thing in here consistent with Baptist theology.

You're not even willing to question erroneous Catholic theology (actually, you defend every Catholic theology brought up).

You're a Catholic.

You're lying about your "Baptist" status.

You're a fraud.

And that would be YOUR opinion. You are the one making that accusation so prove it! If you cannot, then you have zero credibility. :thumbsup:

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

Billy:

Although every Baptist church has its own statement of faith most of them are quite similar to each other. There are, however, certain distinctives which make Baptists unique and different from other denominations. These are Baptist Distinctives. How do you line up with them? Are you a Baptist?

1. The Bible is the final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. (sola scriptura)


2. Each church is composed of a regenerated baptized (by immersion) membership.


3. Each church is autonomous from one another (no denomination).


4. Priesthood of the believer (we all are priests before God—no hierarchy)


5. Soul liberty (the right to believe as the Holy Spirit directs—within the confines of what you have agreed to in that local church’s statement of faith).


6. Immersion of the believer and the Lord’s Table are the only two ordinances, and they are given exclusively to the local church.



7. Separation of church and state.


8. Separation personally and ecclesiastically.

Do all flavors of Baptists hold exactly to these? Do you speak for them all? What about those who believe that it is acceptable for women to be preachers?

Peace!

 

[Amy.G]

I was a Baptist, attending a Baptist Church for almost a year while developing Catholic theological views before I finally left...had many, many pastoral counseling sessions about my Catholic theological leanings...so even my pastor knew...still, I was on the Church roll in good standing and a "Baptist"...

In XC
-

The difference is that you admit it. Billy does not. Yet his theology is clearly Catholic, and clearly not Baptist.

 

[BillySunday1935]

The difference is that you admit it. Billy does not. Yet his theology is clearly Catholic, and clearly not Baptist.

So you say! Are you God? Prove it if you can!

 

[DHK]

Well, the forum rules and user agreement do not state that...

Yes they do. See below.

This Baptist does...

Then by default you are not a Baptist.

What if I'm an Episcopalian masquerading as a Baptist? Or an Anglican? Or a Lutheran? Why are you people so hung up on the Catholic Church?

Peace!

Then you are exactly what you said you are: "masquerading." And you are a fool to be doing so.

Here are parts of the rules and the User Agreement.

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[FONT=&quot]Once again, by clicking the button below to proceed with the registration process, you are agreeing to be bound by these terms of posting. This is our entire and exclusive User Agreement and it supersedes any earlier version. We may change our User Agreement at any time by posting a new version on our site.[/FONT]

 

[DHK]

Do all flavors of Baptists hold exactly to these? Do you speak for them all? What about those who believe that it is acceptable for women to be preachers?

Peace!

Like the American Baptist Convention? They are a liberal organization. They deny many of the beliefs that we hold to. I don't believe they are worthy of the name Baptist either. But they are there. And they do hold to the distinctives, as far as I know, that I set forth.

 

[Revmitchell]

This Baptist does...

You are not a Baptist.

 

[Amy.G]

So you say! Are you God? Prove it if you can!

Your posts prove it. Maybe you should read them again.

Are you an attorney? A politician? You're very good at dancing around questions instead of actually answering them.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The difference is that you admit it. Billy does not. Yet his theology is clearly Catholic, and clearly not Baptist.

Yes I admitted it, yet IF I were to have joined the BB during that time period as a Baptist...what should I have listed as my denomination?

In XC
-

 

[BobRyan]

Billy:

Although every Baptist church has its own statement of faith most of them are quite similar to each other. There are, however, certain distinctives which make Baptists unique and different from other denominations. These are Baptist Distinctives. How do you line up with them? Are you a Baptist?

1. The Bible is the final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. (sola scriptura)


2. Each church is composed of a regenerated baptized (by immersion) membership.


3. Each church is autonomous from one another (no denomination).


4. Priesthood of the believer (we all are priests before God—no hierarchy)


5. Soul liberty (the right to believe as the Holy Spirit directs—within the confines of what you have agreed to in that local church’s statement of faith).


6. Immersion of the believer and the Lord’s Table are the only two ordinances, and they are given exclusively to the local church.



7. Separation of church and state.


8. Separation personally and ecclesiastically.

And "yet" I have this book entitled "The Baptist Faith and Message" - that indicates that when Baptist's gather themselves into denominations (like the Southern Baptist denomination) they do come up with a consistent set of doctrinal statements that they all believe (in the same sense that all Adventists believe their stated 28 Fundamental Beliefs) -- even though beyond that set - they have variation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

True. However, scripture does not preclude the practice in the sense of this topic. (I.e. not idolatry) In addition to ThinkingStuff's examples, there are several places where scripture does show bowing/kneeling as an accepted practice.

"In an interesting passage the verb is used both of "worship" and of "bowing" without an attitude of worship. After Naaman’s healing and his conversion to the monotheistic worship of the Lord (II Kgs 5:17), the Syrian officer asked Elisha, "In this matter may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master (i.e. the king) goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, leaning on my arm, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon your servant in this matter" (II Kgs 5:18, RSV). Elisha did not object and said, "Go in peace."

Here is an example where a pagan officer is participating not-of-his-own-free-will in an act of worship with his pagan king - bowing in worship before a pagan god. ( you are right BTW to compare this to what we find in the prayers to the dead saints so commonly found in the RCC).

Elisha does NOT say "doing such things pleases God" - rather he simply tells him to "go in peace". Elisha does NOT say to his fellow hebrews that it is now ok to go to pagan temples and bow before pagan gods. In fact in 1Cor 8 Paul says that to do so is to worship demons. In Acts 15 the Jerusalem council goes so far as to say that the saints should not even eat any meat that has been OFFERED to such pagan idols! And "yet" here is where the prayers to the dead defense of the RCC argument must go for its defense!

In the NT book of Acts God states that he overlooks times of ignorance but now calls all men everywhere to repentance..

Your argument above seeks "cover" for those who would worship the dead by praying to them and offering incense to them willingly - freely of their own desire -- by trying to mask over that deliberate act - the dilemma of a pagan officer who finally figures out that worship to his pagan god is wrong - but is forced to participate in it anyway.

How "instructive" to the unbiased objective reader.

Your solution in that regard speaks volumes about the practice.

A problem passage is Gen 47:31 where Jacob before dying "bowed himself upon the head of the bed (mitta)." The LXX, however, reads, "And Israel worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff"’ rendering the consonants as matteh "staff." The Syriac and Itala agree; Heb 11:21 cites the LXX. In this context Speiser suggests, "The term ‘to bow low’ need not signify here anything more than a gesture of mute appreciation...." Cf. also I Kgs 1:47 where the dying David bows down in bed."

(http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/prostration_heb.aspx)

‡ Peace ‡

This text does not say "offerred incense to the head of the bed"
This text does not say "prayed to the head of the bed".

this text does not say that Jaco spoke any words at all "to the head of the bed"

Certainly nothing like...

prayer to the "dead in Christ" – St. Francis

faithful servant and friend of Jesus...
... the Church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.

Come to my assistance in this great need......
in ALL my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly (here make your request),
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.

I promise you,
O blessed St. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and I will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.
Amen.

in Christ,

Bob