The Westminster Confession of Faith Blasphemy

[Dave G]

to ORDAIN our sins and the fall of Adam and Eve???

I didn't say that I agreed with everything in the Confession.
If you can find Scripture for that ( that He ordained Adam and Eve's sin, as in "caused them to commit sin" ), then please show me.

I can find Scripture that tells me that He does not tempt men to sin ( James 1:13-15 ),
and that we are fully responsible for sinning.
However, it seems to me that you think that it's an offense to His character that He chooses one sinner over another to save, and leaves the other for just punishment.
See Romans 9, for example.

Apparently, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob does not meet with your approval, sir...
But the thing is, He neither requires our approval, nor do His purposes change just because we might not like what He does, or allows, or plans for.

 

[Silverhair]

So we have moved beyond heresy to blasphemy. I am so grateful that SBG has arrived to straighten out all the Calvinists/Reformed/Particular/Augustinians dwelling in blasphemous ignorance here.

Foaming at the mouth is never pretty, no matter on which side it occurs.

Why do you say that it is SBG that is doing that since it is your LBCF or WCF that do it.

Are you indeed going to support what this text clearly says?
CHAPTER 6;
OF THE FALL OF MAN, OF SIN, AND OF THE PUNISHMENT THEREOF
Paragraph 1. Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof,1 yet he did not long abide in this honor; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given to them, in eating the forbidden fruit,2 which God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory. LBCF

Chapter VI.
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment thereof.
I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.(a) This their sin God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.(b) WCF

How can any Christian disagree with SBG's comment
>>This is the highest form of BLASPHEMY, as it clearly makes God the AUTHOR of our sins, and that He takes PLEASURE in our SINNING!!!<<

 

[Dave G]

@SavedByGrace
Blasphemy is when mere men insult the Lord of Heaven with their expectations of Him,
by making demands, or entertaining ideas about Him that are not in accord with what He has chosen to reveal in His word.

My advice to you, my friend ( should you choose to take it ) is to re-read the Psalms and Proverbs, Job and Daniel, Joshua and Genesis through Deuteronomy...
and pay particular attention to what pleases Him and what doesn't.

I can tell you one thing...
Over the years, those ( and many more ) have been a real eye-opener for me;

To the extent that I am very grateful that He has decided to have mercy and compassion on me, a vile sinner not worthy of even a bit of His goodness.

 

[agedman]

to ORDAIN our sins and the fall of Adam and Eve???

No, He did not ordain your sin.

You keep trying to tie present day into pre fall living.

no wonder you cannot consider the truth of the WMC statement that God would approve (pleased) and validate (ordain) the action in the garden.

 

[Dave G]

Are you indeed going to support what this text clearly says?

I would support it in principle, but would need to see the Scriptures they believe to be declaring it.

which God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory

I see nothing wrong with that statement, given what is revealed in the prophets, and well as the Psalms and Proverbs.
The fall of mankind was indeed planned for, and never took Him by surprise.

He even purposed that He would send His Son to die for His people from the foundation of the world, in preparation for it ( 1 Peter 1:20 ).

How can any Christian disagree with SBG's comment
>>This is the highest form of BLASPHEMY, as it clearly makes God the AUTHOR of our sins, and that He takes PLEASURE in our SINNING!!!<<

I find that I can disagree with his comment, because the God of Heaven in no way is the author of our sins, nor does He take pleasure in our sins.

 

[Silverhair]

And that presents a problem in what manner?

Would not the Son, who was slain prior to the earth being formed, have been a waisted effort had not the garden events taken place?

Perhaps it is that you are stuck in a human time of twenty-four hours (and a bit) in which God is not constricted to abide by such limits.

Please note it is not the bible that says God planned this rather it is the serpent that beguiled Eve and Adam that chose to eat of the fruit. Gen 3:1-6

The LBCF & WCF require this in order to support the Calvinist view but it is not biblical.

 

[Silverhair]

I would support it in principle, but would need to see the Scriptures they believe to be declaring it.

I see nothing wrong with that statement, given what is revealed in the prophets, and well as the Psalms and Proverbs.
The Fall of mankind was indeed planned for, and never took Him by surprise.
He even purposed that He would send His Son to die for His people from the foundation of the world in preparation for it.

I find that I can disagree with his comment, because the God of Heaven in no way is the author of our sins, nor does He take pleasure in our sins.
This tells me that SBG has probably not taken God's word very seriously, IMO.

What is revealed in His word is very sobering in much of the details, and cause me to respect the Lord above anything that I would normally fear or respect.

I agree that God in not the author nor does He take pleasure in them but that is where the LBCF & WCF lead.

 

[Silverhair]

Well lets just take Sproul's words as they are quoted. Since God knows all that is going to happen, good or bad, and He is indeed sovereign, and according to R C Sproul nothing happens that He does not want to happen, He ordains it. Then by Sproul's own words Calvinists have made God the author of evil/sin.

Calvinist determinism is their undoing.

 

[Dave G]

Calvinist determinism is their undoing.

Taking the Scriptures at their word is a person's undoing?
I am under the impression that the Lord not only takes pleasure in someone believing His wordss ( Romans 4:3 ), He is also the cause of it ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

See also Matthew 16:13-17, Matthew 11:20-27.

 

[agedman]

Please note it is not the bible that says God planned this rather it is the serpent that beguiled Eve and Adam that chose to eat of the fruit. Gen 3:1-6

The LBCF & WCF require this in order to support the Calvinist view but it is not biblical.

Was not the garden prepared by God?
We’re not Adam and Eve perfect in every aspect as created by God?
Was not the serpent more subtle and apparently most appealing?

Then what was not ordained by God?

 

[Silverhair]

That RC Sproul statement above is exactly represented by John 9:2. In this case the subject is blindness, not sin. But Sproul doesn't talk about sin in his statement.

Two points here 1] Sproul is not sovereign
2] It does not say anything about what he is referring to, it is a blanket statement.

“If I know something is going to happen and I permit it, even though I have the power to prevent it from happening, I purpose that it shall, in fact, come to pass and if I sovereignly purpose that it shall come to pass, I have ordained it”

God is sovereign and as Sproul says here if He has the power to prevent something but does not then he ordains it. That is pure Calvinism and that has Calvinism making God the author of sin/evil. Not a good place to be.

 

[Silverhair]

Taking the Scriptures at their word is a person's undoing?
I am under the impression that the Lord not only takes pleasure in that ( Romans 4:3 ), He is also the cause of it ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

See also Matthew 16:13-17, Matthew 11:20-27.

If you want to have God as the one that determines all sin and evil then that is your choice.

 

[Silverhair]

Was not the garden prepared by God?
We’re not Adam and Eve perfect in every aspect as created by God?
Was not the serpent more subtle and apparently most appealing?

Then what was not ordained by God?

So you want to make God the author of evil/sin. Your choice.

 

[Dave G]

If you want to have God as the one that determines all sin and evil then that is your choice.

I do not, and His word never says that He does.

But if you wish to go beyond what the Scriptures say and accuse Him of being the author of sin and wickedness, then that is your choice, Silverhair.
As it is, it seems that you refuse to believe a great deal of what is contained in many passages;
For example, John 6, Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2 and 2 Thessalonians 2.

Why, I do not know...but the words are there, and I understand them just fine...
Though I did not always.

Is there something wrong with a God that does as He pleases, and not as we want Him to?

" and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Daniel 4:35 ).

No, there is not.

It is completely Scriptural for the Lord God to do as He plans and purposes, without consulting us...
To love and save one ( and not another ) because it suits His purposes ( Romans 9:13-24 ).
It is completely within the bounds of Who He is and who we are for Him to set something up, like the Garden of Eden ( knowing full well what will happen ), and then plan for every detail of it in advance.

I'm sorry if that offends you, my friend, but that is the God that I worship, and the God that has saved me from His wrath.

 

[DaveXR650]

God knows all things are going to happen. If he knows a bad thing is going to happen then he could have stopped it. He often does. That's why we pray for safety and healing and so on. But we know from experience that bad things happen and evil things happen in a world where we have a God who is all powerful. So we assume that he ordained it. Not that he was pleased in the sense of the one definition in the dictionary. In the case of David's sin the Bible specifically says that the thing David did displeased the Lord. But it pleased the Lord to not prevent him from doing it. That I think was all the Calvinists were trying to explain in the Confession. If you don't agree with that then either God could not have stopped David or he didn't know he was going to do that sin.

 

[agedman]

It pleases God that my body will one day succumb to the wages of sin and cease to function.

God has ordained and appointed such a time of ceasing that cannot be extended or shorted other than by His authority.

God has pre-planned for this event by already preparing a place for me.

Though He could prevent the ceasing of the physical, in His wisdom He holds the keys.

It will bring Glory to God when the physical ceases to be viable, for he will cause me to pass through to eternity into a specially prepared form in which I shall be like His beloved Son.

Had Adam not fulfilled the purposed plan of God, how would it not effect my own redemption and testimony.

God is and will be glorified in all.

 

[Mikey]

to ORDAIN our sins and the fall of Adam and Eve???

Did God know that before creation that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and in doing so all creation would Fall?
Yes. If not then God is no God at all. God would not be all knowing (omniscience).

Was God able to to prevent the Fall from happening? Yes. If not then God is no God at all. God would not be all powerful (omnipotence), as something outside of Him could prevent God to act upon His will.

Did the Fall happen? Yes.

If God knew that the Fall would happen and did not prevent it so from heppening, but could have. Then God decreed that the Fall should happen, in the way it did.

And since decreed it to happen then it happened for a purpose. For God always acts with purpose.

 

[Mikey]

Well lets just take Sproul's words as they are quoted. Since God knows all that is going to happen, good or bad, and He is indeed sovereign, and according to R C Sproul nothing happens that He does not want to happen, He ordains it. Then by Sproul's own words Calvinists have made God the author of evil/sin.

Calvinist determinism is their undoing.

Did God know that before creation that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and in doing so all creation would Fall?
Yes. If not then God is no God at all. God would not be all knowing (omniscience).

Was God able to to prevent the Fall from happening? Yes. If not then God is no God at all. God would not be all powerful (omnipotence), as something outside of Him could prevent God to act upon His will.

Did the Fall happen? Yes.

If God knew that the Fall would happen and did not prevent it so from heppening, but could have, then God ordained that the Fall should happen, in the way it did.

And since He ordained it to happen then it happened for a purpose. For God always acts with purpose.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

can you explain the WCF quote in the OP, or not, simple question?

Why do you think it needs explaining?
God could have prevented Adam and Eve from sinning, otherwise He is not God; but He didn't; for His own wise and holy purposes He permitted it. He didn't make a mistake, otherwise, again, He is not God. Had He been sorry He did so, He wouldn't have permitted it. Psalms 115:3. 'But our God is in the heaven; He does whatever pleases Him.'

So what's your problem? Did God get it wrong? Do you think He sits in heaven wringing His hands saying, "Why did I ever do that?'? Do you suppose that you are wiser than God and could have arranged things better? Have a read of Isaiah 29:16; Isaiah 45:9 & Romans 9:20.

 

[AustinC]

Psalm 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.
Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
1 Corinthians 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

One theme runs through these verses. God does what He wills and does not bother himself with what men think of his choices. He is Supreme and we are not at His level...no matter how much we may demand to be...