The Westminster Confession of Faith Blasphemy

[Silverhair]

I do not, and His word never says that He does.

But if you wish to go beyond what the Scriptures say and accuse Him of being the author of sin and wickedness, then that is your choice, Silverhair.
As it is, it seems that you refuse to believe a great deal of what is contained in many passages;
For example, John 6, Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2 and 2 Thessalonians 2.

Why, I do not know...but the words are there, and I understand them just fine...
Though I did not always.

Is there something wrong with a God that does as He pleases, and not as we want Him to?

" and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Daniel 4:35 ).

No, there is not.

It is completely Scriptural for the Lord God to do as He plans and purposes, without consulting us...
To love and save one ( and not another ) because it suits His purposes ( Romans 9:13-24 ).
It is completely within the bounds of Who He is and who we are for Him to set something up, like the Garden of Eden ( knowing full well what will happen ), and then plan for every detail of it in advance.

I'm sorry if that offends you, my friend, but that is the God that I worship, and the God that has saved me from His wrath.

Really for you to say that just shows that you lack the ability to read clear text. As I said the text of the LBCF & WCF both present God as the author of sin yet you accuse me of saying that. Repeat not I but the LBCF & WCF. please get it straight. But if the LBCF & WCF and those that agree with those texts wish to go beyond what the Scriptures say and accuse Him of being the author of sin and wickedness, then that is their choice. I must admit that I am shocked that they would say such a thing but then when it is pointed out to them they defend it so what can I say.

What I find so strange is that for the Calvinist who thinks they are part of the elect then God condemning the vast majority of mankind is OK. But the reality is that all those Calvinists just have to hope that they are part of the elect, remember you did not have faith in Christ Jesus it had to be given to you.

Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace

These have to be the most soul crushing doctrines that have ever been put forward. God unconditionally chooses to save some, but not all, Christ died only for the elect that God unconditionally chooses to save, and God gives irresistible grace to the fortunate elect.

The heart of the issue is the character of God. Is he truly a God of love who is perfectly good? You cannot claim this with any plausibility if you believe God determines people to damnation, people He could just as easily determine to salvation. He could determine all persons FREELY to accept the Gospel (as Calvinists define freedom) but choose not to. God is more glorified by unconditionally choosing to save some and damning others than He would be by determining all to accept salvation. Such claims make a shambles of the claim that God is love.

As I have said a number of times, there is nothing in Calvinism that would make me think it is the gospel or puts forward a true picture of God. I think many of those that hold to Calvinism have a true faith in Christ Jesus but they are mislead by the Calvinist theology.

 

[Silverhair]

Did God know that before creation that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and in doing so all creation would Fall?
Yes. If not then God is no God at all. God would not be all knowing (omniscience).

Was God able to to prevent the Fall from happening? Yes. If not then God is no God at all. God would not be all powerful (omnipotence), as something outside of Him could prevent God to act upon His will.

Did the Fall happen? Yes.

If God knew that the Fall would happen and did not prevent it so from heppening, but could have, then God ordained that the Fall should happen, in the way it did.

And since He ordained it to happen then it happened for a purpose. For God always acts with purpose.

Did God know what would happen yes but did God cause it to happen no. Adam & Eve both had a free will and using it they made a choice. That is where the Calvinist view runs into trouble. You have to have God control everything as per your LBCF & WCF. But then you want to run away from where that view leads. If as Calvinists say God determines all things then that would require that nothing happens that He did not determine. So your view lands all the sin and evil at His feet. That is not biblical.
God knows all that is going to happen but knowing all that will happen does not cause it to happen. Man has a God given free will and thus we are responsible for our choices not God,

For some strange reason Calvinists cannot wrap their head around the idea that God can be sovereign and man can be free to make real choices. Calvinists will say man is free but what they mean is man is free to make the choice that God has decreed for them to make.

I believe God is sovereign over His sovereignty and in His sovereignty has decreed that man has the free will to trust in or reject Christ Jesus. To say that God can’t is, ironically, to deny God’s sovereignty.

 

[Reformed1689]

What complete RUBBISH. So, I KNOW that my friend is qoing to have an affair, by KNOWING this, I have ORDAINED it???

UnBiblical NONSENSE!

You need to read the statement again, your scenario is not the same

 

[Reformed1689]

Ordain as in allow, Not approve.

 

[DaveXR650]

For some strange reason Calvinists cannot wrap their head around the idea that God can be sovereign and man can be free to make real choices. Calvinists will say man is free but what they mean is man is free to make the choice that God has decreed for them to make.

If you just don't follow their logic that is fine as far as I'm concerned. If you think though that it would be unjust for God to choose some people to be saved and pass over others then you should know that you still have the same problem defending God's justice as a Calvinist does. What I mean is if you leave this up to the the individual you are still faced with the fact that everyone does not have an equal chance to believe the gospel. A Shawnee Indian in the 1700's could live his whole life and never hear of Jesus. The accusations you throw at Calvinists as making God unjust can still be applied to you who insist on free will. To be clear, I'm not enough of a Calvinist that I can't admit that some of the way they explain things is overstated for even poorly stated and I don't blame someone who sees it differently. I'm just saying that if you make our free will the absolute sovereign thing here you still have the problem of folks claiming that your system makes God unjust.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ordain as in allow, Not approve.

The problem is not the fine confession of faith, rather the problem is lack of reading comprehension.
The confessions were written by very smart gifted .persons who know what words mean and can read properly

 

[Silverhair]

The problem is not the fine confession of faith, rather the problem is lack of reading comprehension.
The confessions were written by very smart gifted .persons who know what words mean and can read properly

Ordain (of God or fate) decide (something) in advance. Yes and he said just what he wanted to say.

 

[Silverhair]

If you just don't follow their logic that is fine as far as I'm concerned. If you think though that it would be unjust for God to choose some people to be saved and pass over others then you should know that you still have the same problem defending God's justice as a Calvinist does. What I mean is if you leave this up to the the individual you are still faced with the fact that everyone does not have an equal chance to believe the gospel. A Shawnee Indian in the 1700's could live his whole life and never hear of Jesus. The accusations you throw at Calvinists as making God unjust can still be applied to you who insist on free will. To be clear, I'm not enough of a Calvinist that I can't admit that some of the way they explain things is overstated for even poorly stated and I don't blame someone who sees it differently. I'm just saying that if you make our free will the absolute sovereign thing here you still have the problem of folks claiming that your system makes God unjust.

By your logic then no one prior to Christ Jesus was saved. You do not give enough credit to God. But even with that God still expected man to turn to Him through what they could know, creation.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Ordain as in allow, Not approve.

Definition of ORDAIN

Ordain definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ordain

ORDAIN (verb) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary

ordain verb - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Ordain is to DO

 

[SavedByGrace]

If you just don't follow their logic that is fine as far as I'm concerned. If you think though that it would be unjust for God to choose some people to be saved and pass over others then you should know that you still have the same problem defending God's justice as a Calvinist does. What I mean is if you leave this up to the the individual you are still faced with the fact that everyone does not have an equal chance to believe the gospel. A Shawnee Indian in the 1700's could live his whole life and never hear of Jesus. The accusations you throw at Calvinists as making God unjust can still be applied to you who insist on free will. To be clear, I'm not enough of a Calvinist that I can't admit that some of the way they explain things is overstated for even poorly stated and I don't blame someone who sees it differently. I'm just saying that if you make our free will the absolute sovereign thing here you still have the problem of folks claiming that your system makes God unjust.

Calvinism makes God to be unjust and the author of sins! Calvinism is taken from the teachings of Augustine, who taught a heretical Atonement of Jesus Christ, that He paid a ransom to the devil!!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

I feel there is a tinge of deism in this thread. Deism teaches an impersonal god who created everything we see and cannot see, starts it moving then sets backs and watches everything unfold. The reason why I say this is whenever things like this come up, evil and how does it play in God's decreed will, they take the deist approach and say God just sets back and lets it unfold.

Look at Joseph. Was God just setting there watching things unfold or was His will being fulfilled as He decreed it? I will just let Joseph answer that question "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive."Genesis 50:20]

Then there is the crucifixion. Peter said "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."[Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28]

Then there is Isaiah 53:10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I feel there is a tinge of deism in this thread. Deism teaches an impersonal god who created everything we see and cannot see, starts it moving then sets backs and watches everything unfold. The reason why I say this is whenever things like this come up, evil and how does it play in God's decreed will, they take the deist approach and say God just sets back and lets it unfold.

Look at Joseph. Was God just setting there watching things unfold or was His will being fulfilled as He decreed it? I will just let Joseph answer that question "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive."Genesis 50:20]

Then there is the crucifixion. Peter said "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."[Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28]

Then there is Isaiah 53:10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

I don't think that you have properly read or understood what is in the OP. None of the Bible verses given by supporters of the WCF on this thread, say that it PLEASED God that Adam and Eve sinned, and that He PLANNED to ORDER THEIR SIN TO HIS OWN GLORY??? These heretical words need to be addressed as they are written

 

[Reformed1689]

Definition of ORDAIN

Ordain definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

ordain

ORDAIN (verb) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary

ordain verb - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Ordain is to DO

 

[SavedByGrace]

you have been caught out yet again!

 

[Reformed1689]

you have been caught out yet again!

No, you have been explained what the Calvinist position is and you ignore it and say we believe something else. That is a strawman argument. Why be dishonest about it?

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, you have been explained what the Calvinist position is and you ignore it and say we believe something else. That is a strawman argument. Why be dishonest about it?

you and the others who take your theological position, have so far FAILED to show from the Bible, ANY support for the words used in the WCF, as in the OP! Why can't you simply admit that these language is unbiblical, and offensive to the Lord?

 

[Mikey]

Ordain (of God or fate) decide (something) in advance. Yes and he said just what he wanted to say.

God obviously did decide before creation that things shall come to pass as they have and will do.

Did God know that before creation that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and in doing so all creation would Fall?
Yes. If not then God is no God at all. God would not be all knowing (omniscience).

Was God able to to prevent the Fall from happening? Yes. If not then God is no God at all. God would not be all powerful (omnipotence), as something outside of Him could prevent God to act upon His will.

Did the Fall happen? Yes.

God knew that the fall would come to pass and decided not to prevent it but instead allowed it to happen. Therefore, God decided/ordained/decreed that the Fall should happen.

What part of this do you disagree with?

 

[Reformed1689]

you and the others who take your theological position, have so far FAILED to show from the Bible, ANY support for the words used in the WCF, as in the OP! Why can't you simply admit that these language is unbiblical, and offensive to the Lord?

Because you are making it say something it doesn't and you are too stubborn to admit you are wrong.

 

[Reformed1689]

God obviously did decide before creation that things shall come to pass as they have and will do.

Did God know that before creation that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and in doing so all creation would Fall?
Yes. If not then God is no God at all. God would not be all knowing (omniscience).

Was God able to to prevent the Fall from happening? Yes. If not then God is no God at all. God would not be all powerful (omnipotence), as something outside of Him could prevent God to act upon His will.

Did the Fall happen? Yes.

God knew that the fall would come to pass and decided not to prevent it but instead allowed it to happen. Therefore, God decided/ordained/decreed that the Fall should happen.

What part of this do you disagree with?

He is blind the the truth and bent on making Calvinists evil.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Therefore, God decided/ordained/decreed that the Fall should happen

Really? so "God decided/ordained/decreed that the Fall should happen", then He is grieved because of the sin in the world, as we read in places like Genesis 6? This makes God double-minded!