rigz
Member
The subject verse, do you agree with me that God's will was 'do not eat'?
PS:
By will I mean His intention, purpose, what He'd rather
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The Will of God in the Fall of Man
- Thread starter rigz
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The subject verse, do you agree with me that God's will was 'do not eat'?
PS:
By will I mean His intention, purpose, what He'd rather
God has only one will....
Theologian s create this kind of classification trying to explain God's will of decree,to those who cannot face the truth or grasp it.
It opens the door to carnal speculation like we find in post 39 which becomes disputes over words and carnal philosophy.
I do not go there
I also understand sin as rebellion against God, so I am comfortable with that definition (I am not sure about Calvin and MacArthur). Insofar as to the Fall being within or outside if God's providence, I believe Scripture presents the sin of man as within that scope.
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rigz
Member
what do you understand by the term 'will of God'?
Can? He does. He does not desire any to sin, yet they do.
rigz
Member
I have no idea what 'within or outside of God's providence' means to you, but I'm interested in whether God WANTED Adam to eat the fruit.
rigz
Member
Thank you.
Is it in order to define God's commandment not to eat as permissive Will?
Well, let's be honest here. None of us has ever known His mind or can be His counsellor. Not saying you are purporting this...just saying. Here's the specifics of what is revealed in Adam's fall. God makes the Garden and places Adam therein. He then puts Adam to sleep and from a rib He makes Eve to be his help-mate. God had already previously told Adam what he could and could not eat. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was placed there by God. Eve, being beguiled by the serpent(Satan) eats and gives to Adam and he eats and both die spiritually. That is what we know as biblical irrefutable fact. Now, Adam was not coerced into eating of that fruit, he freely chose to. This is where the different views part ways. Did Adam sin in accord with God's permissive will or decretive will? I see it as both. God does not desire any to sin, yet He allows sin to be here and now, and it also fulfills His plan. It is just like the crucifixion of Christ. Those who cried 'crucify Him' over-and-over again freely did as their hearts desired. Yet, it was decreed that He would be numbered with the transgressors, He would be as a Lamb led to the slaughter, He would die for the sins of His ppl, etc.
Correct.
God leaving man to their own devices fulfills His will. See the crucifixion of Christ.
And if they did not eat, no Christ. There is no 'plan B.'
rigz
Member
Good.
At this very point I request you to DEFINE Will of God and then try and define your own classes.
As far as the cross is concerned, you are digressing. When you mean 'it was decreed', do you mean God commanded it to be so say as in creation?
I can see the Reformed view within you. I do not mean this snarkly, as you know how I am and what I am saying.
To try to probe into places where it involves trying to get at God's thoughts are way too scary. It seems to me, that through studying, God does have a permissive will as well as a decretive will. We know He truly desires none to sin, but yet He did not stop Adam from doing it. We know He gets no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but in His holiness and righteousness, He has to punish them. So it appears He does have these two wills.
But I am open to you teaching me more of your view.
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You are asking me things that I am not entirely sure of, as this is in regards to God's mind. It is via my studying that I see God as having a permissive will. But I have old furniture with me as I am ~ 3 years removed from being in the free will camp. It is a laborious task of trying to study and grasp God's word. But a prosperous endeavor at that. So I do think it was God's permissive will they broke, but I could be wrong.
I am always open to correction.
Very good.
Permissive will=Allows sin to be part of His plan...decretive will. God allowed(permissive) Adam to sin to bring Christ as the Redeemer of His chosen ppl.
Decretive will=God uses unregenerate ppl to crucify our Lord to propitiate God, to appease His wrath, so that He can justify the ungodly. To shed His blood to atone for...blot out the sins of those He came to die in their stead for.
Howso?
The crucifixion? Yes it was decreed...decretive will of God at work.
Internet Theologian
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God certainly allowed mankind to fall, but to pretend to understand it and lay it to God's charge is folly.
In regards to either will, sin plays a part in them. If God decretively willed Adam to eat, sin came about. If He permissively decreed him to eat, sin came about.
A.W.Pink has a nice simple 2 pg article on this in pdf form at chapel library.....Google it and it will get at the idea I am expressing. .......All is contained by Gods will.of decree.I can see the Reformed view within you. I do not mean this snarkly, as you know how I am and what I am saying.
To try to probe into places where it involves trying to get at God's thoughts are way too scary. It seems to me, that through studying, God does have a permissive will as well as a decretive will. We know He truly desires none to sin, but yet He did not stop Adam from doing it. We know He gets no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but in His holiness and righteousness, He has to punish them. So it appears He does have these two wills,
But I am open to you teaching me more of your view.
So do you see it in scripture that God has a permissive and decretive will, or only one decretive will, Brother?
Internet Theologian
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It looks obvious that God has decreed all things, and has permitted things thereby. I always recall Job where he received both good and evil by God's permission, and that in claiming this he didn't sin with his lips in saying so. Seems a fine line to walk but Job was most definitely mature in his understanding and faith in God.
Many flip out over this and go off saying 'Wait, you're saying God authored...!!!!!!!!!!!!!'
If this is the same article, AWP wrote something that seems very close to what I am trying to parlay.
"The decrees of God relate to all future things without exception; whatever is done in time, was foreordained before time began. God’s purpose was concerned with everything, whether great or small, whether good or evil. But with reference to the latter we must be careful to state that while God is the Orderer and Controller of sin, He is not the Author of it in the same way that He is the Author of good. Sin could not proceed from a Holy God by positive and direct creation, but only by decretive permission and negative action. God’s decree, as comprehensive as His government, extends to all creatures and events. It was concerned about our life and death; about our state in time, and our state in eternity. As God works all things after the counsel of His own will, we learn from His works what His counsel is (was), as we judge an architect’s plan by inspecting the building erected under his direction."
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/attributes_online.html#chapter2
Is this the same article, Brother Iconoclast?
But that which you bolded appears to be purporting both wills. Having come from the free will camp, I am still trying to hammer out all the DoG details. Please help me out.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Most go by this and why they believe it by showing where it comes from in Scripture:
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc03.html
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