This Guy: Mark Keith Robinson

[TCassidy]

If any of you who advocate violence

Please do not misrepresent us. Nobody in this thread advocates violence. All of us would, if possible, avoid it. Sometimes it is not possible without approving of and even being complicit in the murder of the innocent.

I will buy a gun

Please, do not buy a gun. Judging from what you have posted in this thread I have concluded that you are far to emotionally unstable to be trusted with a firearm. For your own sake, and the sake of others, don't buy a firearm.

learn to trust in it rather than God.

That is pure blasphemy.

 

[TCassidy]

Yes, but vengeance belongs to the Lord, not us.

So you think that the murderer who kills your unsaved loved on and sends that loved one to hell is the Lord? Or at least the Lord's servant?

 

[1689Dave]

Do not, ever again, say or imply that my calling is opposite of Christ. I have faithfully served Almighty God for over 45 years. I pastored the same church for 27 years. I taught at the same Seminary for 25 years. I have trained hundreds of men for ministry, and sent them all across this great nation and to the ends of the earth. I have given my life to His service. And now I am slowly dying from a vicious disease, and long for the end of suffering and pain, when I will see my Savior face to face.

Do not, ever again, say my calling is opposite of Christ.

You must show from scripture Jesus telling you to do what you are doing, before you can say you follow him in these matters. I have ample scripture supporting what I say. But I have yet to hear any scripture support for you and others who advocate violence.

 

[Revmitchell]

Jesus told us to observe all that he commanded the apostles.

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matthew 28:19–20) (KJV 1900)

Again, you have not found your position demonstrated by Christians in the NT. But they all did the exact opposite.

Naa, you have made incorrect claims of scripture, you have engaged in eisegesis, and you have divorced the passages you are trying to use to support your presupposition from their contexts. On this forum you are going to have to do better than that.

 

[Revmitchell]

You must show from scripture Jesus telling you to do what you are doing, before you can say you follow him in these matters. I have ample scripture supporting what I say. But I have yet to hear any scripture support for you and others who advocate violence.

No one advocates violence. That statement is a characterization which is pejorative in nature. What we advocate is self defense.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes, but vengeance belongs to the Lord, not us.

Apparently you do not understand what that means.

 

[1689Dave]

No one advocates violence. That statement is a characterization which is pejorative in nature. What we advocate is self defense.

But, Christians in the NT never used violence to defend themselves. Many died rather than doing so.

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks for making this an interesting thread. I would do everything short of killing my enemy. But killing him would be worse than if he killed me. If my loved one is lost, would it not be God’s wrath falling on them? “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36) (KJV 1900)

As an 8th degree black belt, I know many ways of stopping an intruder without killing him or her. I won't take time to delineate those ways here.

The problem is that you seem to be opposing all violence against all evil people by anyone other than the police. If that is what you are saying, then you must be against Christ Himself, who twice violently ejected evil men from the temple with a homemade weapon. This is called the "cleansing of the temple." Surely you know about these passages and must admit that Christ then used violence against evil men.

 

[1689Dave]

Apparently you do not understand what that means.

“Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:19–21) (KJV 1900)

 

[Revmitchell]

But I have yet to hear any scripture support for you and others who advocate violence.

Since you continue to misrepresent others position I am out. Good luck with your eisegesis.

 

[Revmitchell]

“Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:19–21) (KJV 1900)

I will repeat what I said, you apparently do not understand what this means.

 

[1689Dave]

As an 8th degree black belt, I know many ways of stopping an intruder without killing him or her. I won't take time to delineate those ways here.

The problem is that you seem to be opposing all violence against all evil people by anyone other than the police. If that is what you are saying, then you must be against Christ Himself, who twice violently ejected evil men from the temple with a homemade weapon. This is called the "cleansing of the temple." Surely you know about these passages and must admit that Christ then used violence against evil men.

Jesus was fulfilling scripture when he drove the cattle and merchants from the temple. But he did not harm anyone. I'm only saying we have no examples of Christians using violence to defend themselves instead of turning the other cheek.

 

[1689Dave]

Since you continue to misrepresent others position I am out. Good luck with your eisegesis.

If you had scripture to support your views, you would have used it by now and the discussion would have ended a long time ago.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes, but vengeance belongs to the Lord, not us.

"Vengeance" is defined in the Cambridge online dictionary as "action against someone to punish that person for having hurt you," (vengeance Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary)

On the other hand, in the same source, "self defence" is defined as:
"protection of yourself, either by fighting or discussion:"
He used the gun in self-defence.
In self-defence, I have to say that I only did what you asked me to do.
skill of fighting without weapons to protect yourself."

The meaning you are giving "vengeance" is mistaken. In self defence, I am stopping someone from hurting me, not getting back at someone for hurting me.

 

[TCassidy]

You must show from scripture Jesus telling you to do what you are doing, before you can say you follow him in these matters. I have ample scripture supporting what I say. But I have yet to hear any scripture support for you and others who advocate violence.

Again, please do not post falsehoods on the Baptist Board. You have already been told that none of us advocate violence.

I suggest you read the Baptist Board posting rules. They can be found at Terms of Service and Rules | Baptist Christian Forums

 

[1689Dave]

I will repeat what I said, you apparently do not understand what this means.

How else can you take it?

 

[John of Japan]

Jesus was fulfilling scripture when he drove the cattle and merchants from the temple. But he did not harm anyone. I'm only saying we have no examples of Christians using violence to defend themselves instead of turning the other cheek.

He did use violence, did He not? And how do you know He did not harm anyone. The text does not say.

So if Jesus used violence to eject wicked men from the Father's house (and thus His own house), how is it wrong if I use violence to stop someone from acting wickedly in my own house? Simply the fact that He was fulfilling Scripture does not mean that I cannot imitate Him in this matter.

 

[1689Dave]

He did use violence, did He not? And how do you know He did not harm anyone. The text does not say.

So if Jesus used violence to eject wicked men from the Father's house (and thus His own house), how is it wrong if I use violence to stop someone from acting wickedly in my own house? Simply the fact that He was fulfilling Scripture does not mean that I cannot imitate Him in this matter.

If you want to drive the money changers out of quite a few churches, that would be great.

 

[John of Japan]

There are two theological reasons for self defense that have not yet been mentioned on this thread.

1. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. To allow an evil person to violate a saved person in my family (a wife or daughter), or commit violence against my own person, is allowing someone to defile the holy temple of God.
2. We are all made in the image of God. What is wrong with murder is that it is violating the image of God in the person of a human being (Gen. 9:6). That is definitely something that should be stopped if it is in my power to do so.

 

[John of Japan]

If you want to drive the money changers out of quite a few churches, that would be great.

1. You have avoided my point, which is that Christ used violence, which you oppose.
2. A modern church house (which is not a Biblical church) is not analogous to the Jewish temple. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, and are thus worth defending as Jesus defended the temple of God with violence.