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To What Degree do you believe a lost soul Assists God in their "Salvation"?

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37818

Well-Known Member
This is Reformation Armianism. Is that your theological position?
No. I am neither Arminian or a Calvinist. Though I can probably be accused of sharing some views with both. It makes me frustrated when some professed Calvinists wrongly accuse me of not understanding the Biblical teaching of grace and falsely accuse me of works based salvation. I attempt to be clear in my explanations. There are always some differences between what the a translation explicitly says versus how one's interpretation may say something the texts does not explicitly say. That is why it is an interpretation.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
No. I am neither Arminian or a Calvinist. Though I can probably be accused of sharing some views with both. It makes me frustrated when some professed Calvinists wrongly accuse me of not understanding the Biblical teaching of grace and falsely accuse me of works based salvation. I attempt to be clear in my explanations. There are always some differences between what the a translation explicitly says versus how one's interpretation may say something the texts does not explicitly say. That is why it is an interpretation.
I get your agreement with my post even more. I also am not a Calvinist or an Arminian. And I also think those who use heresies as insults need our prayers.
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Through (Dia) Faith

The phrase, found in at least 13 verses, is "through or by faith." "Through translates the Greek preposition "dia" and when used to show instrumentality, can be translated as "by way of" when "faith" is in the "genitive" case. The Greek preposition is used in the phrase to show instrumentality, something is achieved by means of faith or by way of faith.

Romans 4 teaches God credits our faith as righteousness for our benefit. Thus the phrase indicates God uses the "faith" path in bestowing His blessing upon a person or people. Thus a less encrypted version of the verses using the phrase would read "by way of your credited faith."


Interpretive translations - decryption version
Romans 3:25
God set forth Christ Jesus as the means of reconciliation by way of your credited faith in His blood, to demonstrate God's righteousness because God withheld the penalty for our previously committed sins.

Here God uses the "faith path" to bestow reconciliation upon guilty sinners.

Romans 3:30
since indeed God who will justify the Jewish circumcised based on their credited faith and the Gentile uncircumcised by way of their credited faith is undivided and consistent.

Here God uses the "faith path" to bestow justification upon Jews and Gentiles alike.

Romans 3:31
Then are we nullifying the Law by way of your credited faith? May it never be! Rather, we are sustaining the Law.

Here God uses the "faith path" to sustain the Law.

2 Corinthians 5:7
for we live and walk according to the way of our credited faith, not by sight.

Here I think our subsequent faithful walk with Christ following our rebirth is in view.

Galatians 3:14
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit by way of our credited faith.

Here God uses the "faith path" to bestow the promised Spirit.

Galatians 3:26
For you are all children of God by way of your credited faith in Christ Jesus.

Here God uses the "faith path" to cause believers to be spiritually born anew.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved by way of your credited faith; and this salvation is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Here God uses the "faith path" to select and save some of the lost and fallen according to His Redemption plan.

Ephesians 3:17
that Christ may dwell in your hearts by way of your credited faith so that, because you have been rooted and grounded in love,

Here God uses the "faith path" to seal us within Christ with the Spirit of Christ, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us.

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him by way of your credited faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

2 Timothy 3:15
and how from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to give you wisdom that leads to salvation by way of your credited faith in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 6:12
so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who by way of their credited faith and perseverance inherit the promises.

Hebrews 11:33
By way of their approved faith they conquered kingdoms, administered justice, gained what was promised, shut the mouths of lions,

1 Peter 1:5
who by God's power are protected by way of their credited faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

IN THIS POST: "To What Degree do you believe
a lost soul Assists God in their "Salvation"?,

I am looking for a percentage and the above quote, of Van's, from another post, seems to say that the "faith" of an individual 100% gains them 'Credit' of The Perfect Righteousness of Jesus, that Jesus Accomplished in His Virgin Born, Perfect Life and Death, Burial, and Ressurection from the dead, i.e., "by way of their Credited Faith", without Conversion, a Blood Sacrifice, or the sinner laying down their Sword of Rebellion against The Trice-Holy God, in Repentance.

How far off am I?

 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
No. That would not. That is like saying IF one denies conditional atonement they must be hyper-Calvinists.

An affirmation that man can choose God in salvation apart from the work of the Spirit is a part of Pelaganism (and semi-Pelagianism).

While that proves you have been incorrect in your accusations of some (nobody on this board has made such a claim) it is not in itself what defines either heresy.
The Holy Spirit alone can enable a lost sinner to call upon Jesus as their Lord, and Both Calvinists and Arminians both affirm that truth!
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
@37818

Thank you for your prayers.

I am glad we agree on this topic.

Too many use "Pelagianism" and "Semi-Pelagianism" as insults tossed at people who hold neither heresy. I hope it is out of ignorance, but if so it is willful ignorance.
Any who would affirm lost sinner does not require the gracing of the Holy Spirit in any form to be able to receive jests as Lord indeed holds to Pelagianism!
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
@37818

Thank you for your prayers.

I am glad we agree on this topic.

Too many use "Pelagianism" and "Semi-Pelagianism" as insults tossed at people who hold neither heresy. I hope it is out of ignorance, but if so it is willful ignorance.
Any who would affirm lost sinner does not require the gracing of the Holy Spirit in any form to be able to receive jests as Lord indeed holds to Pelagianism!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The Holy Spirit alone can enable a lost sinner to call upon Jesus as their Lord, and Both Calvinists and Arminians both affirm that truth!
I agree. But just denying the Holy Spirit is necessary to believe is not in and of itself Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism.

That said, you have accused people of holding to Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism when they denied one could be saved without the work of the Spirit because they held to free-will theology.

You see my point, how that was wring of you....correct?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The Holy Spirit alone can enable a lost sinner to call upon Jesus as their Lord, and Both Calvinists and Arminians both affirm that truth!
I agree. But just denying the Holy Spirit is necessary to believe is not in and of itself Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism.

That said, you have accused people of holding to Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism when they denied one could be saved without the work of the Spirit because they held to free-will theology.

You see my point, how that was wrong of you....correct?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@JesusFan

Check who agrees. Post #18
Absolutely.

Without God drawing man, man will never be saved. This is the "problem" of man - our "sin nature". We turn to ourselves, not to God.

My point with @JesusFan is simply that Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism entails more than merely rejecting the truth that no man comes to Christ except the Father draw him.

That is part of the two heresies, but not the heresies themselves.

The larger problem is members on this board (including @JesusFan ) refer to any belief that views infants as sinners, yet innocent of actually committing a sinful act, as either Pelagianism or semi-Pelagianism. That is simply a false charge.

Pelagianism is a free-will theology (obviously) BUT not all free-will theology is Pelagianism.

It is time members stop misusing terms to insult the beliefs of other members. Ignorance of the two heresies is no excuse as there are ample resources available concerning those false teachings.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Do you hold to pelangianism then?
No. Do you hold to Pelagianism then? If so, you are the only one I know of on this board holding to Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism, and the Staff needs to discuss whether it is appropriate for you to remain a member.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Any who would affirm lost sinner does not require the gracing of the Holy Spirit in any form to be able to receive jests as Lord indeed holds to Pelagianism!
BUT NOBODY HAS MADE THAT CLAIM ON THIS BOARD.

And Pelagianism is more than just denying that God must draw people to Himself.

As evidence - Both Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism hold to the false teaching that men do not need the drawing of God to be saved. But Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism are NOT the same things.

I'd actually argue that some forms of Arminianism is Calvinism altered by incorporating the inverse of semi-Pelagianism (man must be drawn to be saved, but may lose his salvation of his own accord).
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
If one holds are not spiritually dead, and can still accept God and his salvation due to free will only, is Pel. if they co assist God to save them, are Semi!

Then it would be fair to call all Calvinists mindless robots. I mean you are the ones that don't even have faith as it has to be given to you.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Iet's be clear here, the lost do not in any way assist God in their salvation. If anything the lost hinder their salvation.

The lost can respond to the invitation of God, the gospel, and those that do accept Christ as Lord, God will save.
 

Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Totally depraved man under grace can choose to accept or reject the gift of Salvation. Unsure if that is what is meant by "assists" or not. I wouldn't consider it "assists", but some would.

Mankind cannot work to achieve salvation, and adds nothing to God's Salvation.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
I agree. But just denying the Holy Spirit is necessary to believe is not in and of itself Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism.

That said, you have accused people of holding to Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism when they denied one could be saved without the work of the Spirit because they held to free-will theology.

You see my point, how that was wring of you....correct?
I have problems with "free will" in the sense that arminians use the term, but even they do see a real and definitive need to have the Holy Spirit grant saving grace to be even able to receive the Lord Jesus, but those who see it as just themselves able to place faith in Jesus do hold to another gospel!
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Absolutely.

Without God drawing man, man will never be saved. This is the "problem" of man - our "sin nature". We turn to ourselves, not to God.

My point with @JesusFan is simply that Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism entails more than merely rejecting the truth that no man comes to Christ except the Father draw him.

That is part of the two heresies, but not the heresies themselves.

The larger problem is members on this board (including @JesusFan ) refer to any belief that views infants as sinners, yet innocent of actually committing a sinful act, as either Pelagianism or semi-Pelagianism. That is simply a false charge.

Pelagianism is a free-will theology (obviously) BUT not all free-will theology is Pelagianism.

It is time members stop misusing terms to insult the beliefs of other members. Ignorance of the two heresies is no excuse as there are ample resources available concerning those false teachings.
If one defines free will as being that we have inherit within ourselves saving faith, and have no need of the Holy Spirit to enable us to exercise that faith in any fashion, that is indeed heresy!
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
No. Do you hold to Pelagianism then? If so, you are the only one I know of on this board holding to Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism, and the Staff needs to discuss whether it is appropriate for you to remain a member.
I am a Calvinist Baptist, so why would I ever even think of holding to that heresy?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
BUT NOBODY HAS MADE THAT CLAIM ON THIS BOARD.

And Pelagianism is more than just denying that God must draw people to Himself.

As evidence - Both Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism hold to the false teaching that men do not need the drawing of God to be saved. But Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism are NOT the same things.

I'd actually argue that some forms of Arminianism is Calvinism altered by incorporating the inverse of semi-Pelagianism (man must be drawn to be saved, but may lose his salvation of his own accord).
I am NOT accusing any here of being into Pelaianism, and do affirm that many in todays Christianity are semi ones, but that in and by itself is not heretical!
 
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