Two Salvations?

[Lacy Evans]

All Christians suffer persecution and tribulation, some to a greater extent than others.

So the Bible REALLY says. "Since every Christian suffers, we're all going to be joint heirs"?

Did you figure that out by using the ESV or by studying root words?

You are a joint heir if you suffer = Since you're gonna, suffer you are a joint heir?

Dang ole stupid KJV translators! They really mess me up!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Six Pages already?!! Wow!

I want to discuss with you about salvation doctrine issue, but not right now, I need go to sleep, get ready go to work 3rd shift. I promise, I will make post to discuss on this on Sunday when I am free.

Early in my Christian life, I used to believe in unconditional security salvation - so called, 'Once Saved Always Saved'(OSAS), as what baptist churches teaching on it. I thought it is a truth doctrine.

Till I look at Matt. 25:30, it bothers me lot for 3 years, finally, I determined left unconditional security salvation doctrine - baptist's doctrine for good. Because I can easily see conditional with warnings in so many passages in the Bible. For example - take the mark of the beast of Revelation chapter 13 and 14, or worshipping the beast, shall be cast away into everlasting fire, obivously, it is conditional with warning.

That why, I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

Later this weekend, I will discuss more with verses on salvation issues.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[webdog]

So the Bible REALLY says. "Since every Christian suffers, we're all going to be joint heirs"?

Now you're getting it!
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God's children,
Rom 8:17 and if children, also heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ--seeing that we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

NOTE: It doesn't say IF we suffer with Him...if we are in Christ we DO suffer with Him.

Did you figure that out by using the ESV or by studying root words

?
Both. Try it sometimes.

You are a joint heir if you suffer = Since you're gonna, suffer you are a joint heir?

I like what Albert Barnes says in regards to 2 Peter 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him - The meaning is, that the members will be treated as the Head is. We become united with him by faith, and, if we share his treatment on earth, we shall share his triumphs in heaven.

Dang ole stupid KJV translators! They really mess me up!

Following man will do that to you every time...

 

[James_Newman]

So,
2 Timothy 2:12
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Really says
12 Since we suffer, we shall also reign with him: Since we deny him, he also will deny us:
That makes me feel a lot better, and I know it should you as well.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God's children, Rom 8:17 and if children, also heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ--seeing that we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

I just thought of something funny.

Where was the perfect Word of God prior to the translation of the ESV?:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Ya gotta laugh! (That's funny too?) Which edition of the ESV is the perfect one (I just kill myself)


Seriously, we have two very different Bibles and two very different faiths. The old "No doctrine is affected" mantra is fading into the wind. Your Bible teaches that you automatically suffer, no effort necessary. Mine teaches that you should (and better) suffer. Until the ESV or whichever yields 350 years of fruit, I'll pass on it.

Lacy

PS start a thread in the versions forum. I'm not interested.

 

[EdSutton]

Wonder why Lot was allowed to leave Sodom and escape the judgment? After all, he was not totally righteous, he did allow his daughters to get him drunk afterwards and committed incestual acts with them.

Sound like godly righteousness?

I'll never catch up on this thread, for I don't have the time, but unless you are saying that Hizzoner, the Mayor, was righteous up until he was 'yanked out of Dodge', and then was no longer righteous, Scripture says this:

6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. (II Pet. 2:6-10a - NKJV)

Seems pretty clear to me! Yep! Why?

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. David Celebrates the Same Truth


5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”[c] (Rom. 4:1-8 - NKJV)

It ain't conditional, based on what we do, folks! Thank God for mercy, love, and grace!
FTR, Lot was a believer before Abraham. (Compare Gen. 14:12; 15:6; II Peter 2:8.)

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:4-10 - NKJV)

I am glad this says we "should walk" in the good works, rather than "will walk" in good works, for otherwise, I could never know how much is enough, or if I am walking close enough. This is, BTW, one error of both the theological systems of "Calvinism" and "Arminianism", as it robs one from his or her assurance of salvation, for one can never know, according to either, contrary to I John 5:10-13!

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

If all else fails . . .

lacy


No doctrine is affected! No doctrine is affected! BRAWWWWWWK! (sorry, wrong forum)

'Squawk' forum?? Or is that supposed to be 'Polly Parrot' forum?? :tongue3: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Ed,

So Lot was still righteous when he got drunk and slept with his daughters?

Ya know, I can't find one scripture verse that says one who is clothed in Christ's righteousness is allowed to do such.

And yes, Lacy and James, the Word of God says all who will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. If one claims to be of Christ and never is persecuted because of Christ, then according to that verse, the person is not living a godly life in Christ Jesus.

 

[EdSutton]

additionaly, it's not about how much we suffer, it's about suffering faithfully to the end.

Nothing like a little "perseverance" from either side to turn attention from the question at hand.

Ed

 

[J. Jump]

Man this thread really got away from me. So I'm not going to bother posting on some of the issues bought up, but wanted to comment on this one.

And yes, Lacy and James, the Word of God says all who will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. If one claims to be of Christ and never is persecuted because of Christ, then according to that verse, the person is not living a godly life in Christ Jesus.

That's EXACTLY what we have been trying to say. If you are living a Godly life and standing up for the Word of God in the True sense you are going to be persecuted. And if you are not experiencing some sort of suffering then you are not walking by the Spirit in the way you are supposed to.

That doesn't mean you are not saved, that just means you are not living a Godly life. Not all Christians live Godly lives. And that means that they aren't going to be suffering, which means they aren't going to reign in the kingdom either.

To say that ALL Christians live Godly lives is to speak outside of Scripture.

 

[EdSutton]

Ed,

So Lot was still righteous when he got drunk and slept with his daughters?

Ya know, I can't find one scripture verse that says one who is clothed in Christ's righteousness is allowed to do such.

And yes, Lacy and James, the Word of God says all who will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. If one claims to be of Christ and never is persecuted because of Christ, then according to that verse, the person is not living a godly life in Christ Jesus.

Actually, your argument is with God, the Holy Spirit, and the authors of Scripture, not me. I am not the one that said Lot was righteous, much less identified him as 'godly', in the first place, I merely believe it, because God said it. AND I don't see that God ever revoked that pronouncement in Scripture. For that matter, do you see where God grades on the curve, at all? If so, where? And according to Scripture's own declaration, Paul said that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I AM chief", it seems to me that all the rest fall? short of that level. We are back to the old question of, "At what point does one decide that someone else has too many sins, for thenm to really be saved? I suggest this is seemingly a wee bit of the mote vs. beam syndrome at work.

Church time. Bye!

Ed

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

I believe that all this talk about "two salvations" is nothing less than heresy. Did Jesus ever preach two salvations? No. Jesus said:

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.


He also said:

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


What's been argued here as the tougher requirements for entrance into the Millenial Kingdom than the requirement for entering Heaven is in reality the requirement for eternal salvation. Period. Don't like the reference to following Christ as Lord? Sorry, that's the Biblical standard.

 

[J. Jump]

Did Jesus ever preach two salvations?

He didn't have to because the folks here was preaching to had already had their eternal destiny secured. He was preaching to spiritually alive folks, not spiritually dead folks. That's why He didn't preach the message of grace, but preached the message of the kingdom.

What's been argued here as the tougher requirements for entrance into the Millenial Kingdom than the requirement for entering Heaven is in reality the requirement for eternal salvation. Period. Don't like the reference to following Christ as Lord? Sorry, that's the Biblical standard.

That's about a clear cut a works based salvation as you can get. If you want to trust in yourself for eternal salvation then so be it, but it's outside of Scripture as Scripture says we are to trust in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God and that ALONE for our eternal salvation. Anything added or taken away from that is outside Scripture.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Man this thread really got away from me. So I'm not going to bother posting on some of the issues bought up, but wanted to comment on this one.



That's EXACTLY what we have been trying to say. If you are living a Godly life and standing up for the Word of God in the True sense you are going to be persecuted. And if you are not experiencing some sort of suffering then you are not walking by the Spirit in the way you are supposed to.

That doesn't mean you are not saved, that just means you are not living a Godly life. Not all Christians live Godly lives. And that means that they aren't going to be suffering, which means they aren't going to reign in the kingdom either.

To say that ALL Christians live Godly lives is to speak outside of Scripture.

Since the Word Christian means 'Christ-like', I would say all Christians do indeed live godly lives. Didn't Christ Himself? or was He worldly?

And again, I see no Scripture saying those who are Christians won't rule and reign with Him.

Maybe you are looking at the word 'Christian' in the way the world looks at the word. A great percentage of the world claims to be Christian just because they had grandparents who were Christian, or because they donate money to a Christian orginazation, or some other reason other than they placed their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Lacy Evans]

What's been argued here as the tougher requirements for entrance into the Millenial Kingdom than the requirement for entering Heaven is in reality the requirement for eternal salvation. Period. Don't like the reference to following Christ as Lord? Sorry, that's the Biblical standard.

Tougher requirements? The requirement for eternal salvation is perfect blood. Are you saying that Christ's death on the cross was not tough? Any suffering we do for him pales in comparison to what he did for us.

You show me one scripture that commands an unbeliever to make Christ his LORD so he can be saved. You have to already be saved to have the Holy Ghost's power to make him your Lord. You're trying to get the cart to drive the horse.

If making him Lord (good works) is your requirement for eternal salvation, then you just made it impossible to be saved.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Since the Word Christian means 'Christ-like', I would say all Christians do indeed live godly lives. Didn't Christ Himself? or was He worldly?

If there was no danger, would my daddy have warned me not to play in the street? If all Christians automatically live Godly because of their positional righteousness, then why in the world is 95% of the NT written to Christians telling them to live right? For that matter, why even tell an unbeliever to live right (It won't save him anyway,) Just get him good and saved and you'll never have to worry about holiness again!

LAcy

 

[tinytim]

I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet.
We should define suffering in the context of suffering from the 1000 yr passage...
Revelation 20:3-5
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.


It seems that one has to be beheaded to qualify to be a ruler.

It was asked back there somewhere who would we rule and reign?
What about the children born during the 7 yrs. Where will they go? into the kingdom, or Hell?

If the kingdom, will they be able to reproduce?
If so.... bingo, you have the subjects

 

[Lacy Evans]

I believe that all this talk about "two salvations" is nothing less than heresy. Did Jesus ever preach two salvations?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Believe

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Endure unto the end

Would you like examples of the dualism of salvation from Paul and peter as well? I could supply you with the scriptures if you are interested. I could also recommend some good free online books?

Love, Lacy

 

[tinytim]

That's simple, if a person truly believes they will endure.
The Holy Spirit seals us, and provides the endurance.

We are created a new creature...We are. I just got through reading some pamphlets that J.Jump pmed me, and in one of them it said that since the Jews rejected Christ as king, God created a new creature..

The church is not a new creature, each Christian is.
And as a new creature, I will act like a new creature.

A dog acts like a dog, a cow acts like a cow, a Christian acts like a Christian.

If a dog meows it is not a dog, if a cow lays eggs it is not a cow, and if a Christian doesn't act like a Christian, they are not a Christian.

Granted, A christian can goof up, but to live in unrepentant sin is impossible if a person is truly saved.

 

[Lacy Evans]

It seems that one has to be beheaded to qualify to be a ruler.

That is certainly one way. And your statement would be true if the NT didn't reveal other non-martyrs who are counted worthy. (Endure to the end) Suffering includes suffering against temptation.

Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


But some are called to suffer in other ways. The great generations of believers, who lived when to be a Christian meant losing your life, had it terrible, I'll admit. But sometimes I think that it might be almost as hard to win a crown by suffering through a whole generation of prosperity and apathy. At least Huss and those guys weren't tempted to ride the fence. Each generation has it's own temptation. Each generation has to suffer in it's own way.

It was asked back there somewhere who would we rule and reign?
What about the children born during the 7 yrs. Where will they go? into the kingdom, or Hell?

If the kingdom, will they be able to reproduce?
If so.... bingo, you have the subjects

Exactly. And 1000 years is a long time to populate the earth. I asked earlier, "Who are the nations in Rev 20:7,8 who are tempted after the 1000 years?" I think you are spot on.

Lacy