Ukraine War

[atpollard]

I think the issue with Trump should be US objectives, regardless as to where Russia's interest falls.

The US was involved in removing an elected president from the Ukrane because that leader was pro-Russia. That is not democratic. And Zelenskyy is not the best example of a democratic leader either.

This is not to say that Putin is the "good guy".

But why should the US borrow money to send to Zelenskyy in order to keep a war going? Even if there is a peace by war that peace can only be maintained by strength which would mean continued funding by the US.

To end the war peacefully both nations (Russia and Ukraine) will have to compromise. This will require a trust that probably can't be had. But the idea of continuing to borrow money to give to a nation that does not have the resources to defend itself is not a good solution.

I get Israel. It is important to the US that Israel maintain a strong stance because their enemies have the objective of destroying us as well. But Ukraine is merely a pawn Europe is using in a proxy war to weaken a potential threat to Europe.

Setting aside any questions of morality (because you are talking about political goals), are those two objectives not identical?
A. Support Israel to weaken Muslim Terrorists that want to hurt the USA.
B. Support Ukraine to weaken Russia that wants to hurt NATO.

 

[JonC]

Setting aside any questions of morality (because you are talking about political goals), are those two objectives not identical?
A. Support Israel to weaken Muslim Terrorists that want to hurt the USA.
B. Support Ukraine to weaken Russia that wants to hurt NATO.

They are not identical because of the goals. Russia does not have the stated mission of killing Americans (the "Great Satan"). Militarily Israel is important to the US while Ukraine is not. The UK uses Ukraine as a proxy to fight Russia, however the threat is a precieved threat against the EU whike the threat of Islamic terrorism is a realized threat against the US.

Economic factors are also important. The US effectually borrows money to pay for the defence of the EU.

There is not a moral issue. In terms of morality neither Russia or Ukraine comes out clean. And the citizens of the Ukraine chose a leader who was pro-Russia (the US helped oust him). Wars come and wars go.

The moral problem is sending money to keep a war that cannot win a peace going. If we sent enough for Ukrane to achieve a military victory then we would have to continue sending money to defend against another war. It does not end. The immoral solution is what the EU, especially the UK, is doing to Ukraine.

 

[Roy]

I think the issue with Trump should be US objectives, regardless as to where Russia's interest falls.

The US was involved in removing an elected president from the Ukrane because that leader was pro-Russia. That is not democratic. And Zelenskyy is not the best example of a democratic leader either.

This is not to say that Putin is the "good guy".

But why should the US borrow money to send to Zelenskyy in order to keep a war going? Even if there is a peace by war that peace can only be maintained by strength which would mean continued funding by the US.

To end the war peacefully both nations (Russia and Ukraine) will have to compromise. This will require a trust that probably can't be had. But the idea of continuing to borrow money to give to a nation that does not have the resources to defend itself is not a good solution.

I get Israel. It is important to the US that Israel maintain a strong stance because their enemies have the objective of destroying us as well. But Ukraine is merely a pawn Europe is using in a proxy war to weaken a potential threat to Europe.

Well said

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The problem with Trump and Vance is that they have a very tenuous knowledge of history even recent history, and an equally tenuous hold on facts.
This latter may be deliberate; if Trump keeps saying that the U.S. has spent $315 billion supporting Ukraine instead of the true figure, c. $100 billion , he may be able to extort more rare earths out of Zelenskyy, but on history, I think they are both ignorant. There were plenty of people in 1938 saying that all Hitler wanted was security, and if the allies let him have Czechoslovakia, he would be satisfied.
Those who think that Putin will be satisfied with 20% or so of Ukraine should notice that Alexandr Lukashenko, the President of Byelorussia, who has been a poodle of Putin for many years, thought it necessary a few weeks ago to warn his master that Byelorussia would resist if Russia tried to take it over.
It is also worth mentioning that there has been something of a revival in Ukraine since the invasion, and the number and size of Baptist churches have increased dramatically. Where Putin has taken over, Baptist churches are suppressed and the only churches allowed are Russian Orthodox, completely controlled, of course, by Putin.
Extract from Ukraine Crisis - Slavic Gospel Association

"It may seem foolish to many to ask about evangelism and Gospel outreach in this broken country, but in reality there is so much in which to rejoice, as reports come in of thousands of men, women, and children being brought to Christ. In the midst of physical darkness and the moral depravity of war, the light of the Gospel is shining brightly and Christ is building His Church.
• In association with our partners in mission, over 30,000 Bible sets [adult and children’s Bibles] have been printed and distributed.
• A Christian literature factory in west Ukraine, supported by SGA UK, has, in the last 6 months, printed 100,000 New Testaments for adults, and 100,000 New Testaments for children, 300,000 various pieces of Christian literature, and 50,000 pocket sized Gospel booklets for the Ukrainian military.
• That same factory has also become a food distribution centre. More than 20,000 food boxes have been packed and prepared, and delivered to hungry people all over the country. Food for body and soul!
• It is estimated that around 20,000 more people have started to attend church, an expression of a hunger for the things of God and the Word of God.

On the borders of Ukraine, massive relief efforts continue, and many pastors and churches receiving help and support from SGA are continuing to minister to those forced out and fleeing from danger and death. The drain on these faithful people mentally, emotionally, and physically is immense, but they refuse to abandon their efforts. They refuse to become ‘war weary’, and in the strength and grace of the Lord, they continue to share the Gospel by word and deed to those who have suffered most in this seemingly unending conflict."

Finally, the reason that the vast majority of Ukrainians do not love Russia is the Holodomor. If anyone wants to know what that was, read here:

Holodomor

Teaser here

cla.umn.edu

 

[Christforums]

Where Putin has taken over, Baptist churches are suppressed and the only churches allowed are Russian Orthodox, completely controlled, of course, by Putin.

Interesting, a few yrs ago I remember Putin addressing the media and suggesting G-d does not need be removed from Socialism and the world should learn from the past mistake of Russia. Also, mainstream denominations were welcomed: Missionaries from most mainstream denominations. The problems were from Pentecostals, JWs, SDA, etc., a lot of cults and liberal missionaries which not only promoted and encouraged LGBT but ushered in Capitalism. I was a member of two churches which currently have missionaries and teachers in Russia. By suppression, if Capitalism or LGBT are considered part of the Gospel message, then as you probably believe too and wonder not why the suppression.

Lastly, and I am not necessarily taking the side of Putin, but the church has a nasty habit of aiding and abetting the enemy during war. Including running Propaganda for the enemy promoting empathy in its underground church literature and messages.

Look at what happens in N. Korea. Missionaries strap bibles and literature to balloons and send them over the DMZ, and if a N. Korean is caught with the bible or literature, they can face the death penalty. While we champion separation of church and state it wasn't long ago two administrations ago, when mayors etc ordered churches to turn in their sermons. The government was cracking down on churches speaking in the areas of politics and against the LGBT and abolish their 501-tax exemption status, and this occurs today and why most churches which cherish their tax exemption speak not in the areas of politics.

These things occurred even in the OT when priests who only took from their allotment were allowed to preach in Egypt. And the days of worship were limited to one in six days. Pharoah left the priests alone if they left Pharoah alone.

 

[asterisktom]

In light of this discussion I thought this article I wrote on our unplanned, extended tour of Ukraine might be of interest. This is the first of eight articles, including all of the major areas of the country as it was at that time. Our time there was extended because we were not able to fly out because of the Covid craziness. But it was a great opportunity to get to really know the people and country.

Two excerpts. The photos referenced are in the article:

"Ivano-Frankivsk. Statue of Stepan Bandera, Ukraine hero to some,, neo-Nazi radical to others (who know their history). The controversial figure is flanked on both sides by the Ukrainian and red and black flag of the UPA, Ukrainian Nationalist Movement. The colors symbolize Ukrainian blood shed on black soil. The enemies of national Ukraine were not only the Germans and Russians but also, at various times, the Jewish residents."

....

"Beautiful blossoms hide an ugly scene. The Trade Union Building in Odesa. A Russophile group had a demonstration in front of this building in 2014 seeking for the Oblast of Odesa be declared an autonomous republic when they were confronted with a larger masked contingent with bats and torches. This latter force pushed the protesters back and, eventually, into the building. The hooded pro-Maidan group then started setting the building on fire. Many of the demonstrators jumped out of the building only to be clubbed to death by the pro-Maidan group. Over 100 were killed, either from the fire inside or from jumping outside.

"This incident gives insight on the current situation in Ukraine (April 30, 2022). The war here is not mainly a war between Russia and Ukraine. It is a war between Ukrainians and Ukrainians. A civil war. The majority who died in the above incident, and who died earlier in Maidan Square, were Ukrainian citizens.

"Personally it saddens and irritates me when I read about clueless young idealistic men from America desire to fight in a war that does not concern them. A civil war is a slow, long-lasting burn. Americans, of all people, should know about that."

The entire article, with photos. is below. Many of the photos can be selected for much larger views.

UKRAINE BETWEEN WARS

Photos can be enlarged. From left to right:Odesa, Dnipro, Kryvyi Rih, Kharkiv, Kiev, Mariupol, Kiev. Of course, the word “between” is a misnomer. The country, in some part or other, has witnessed i…

fromnowhere2nowhere.wordpress.com

 

[Christforums]

"Personally it saddens and irritates me when I read about clueless young idealistic men from America desire to fight in a war that does not concern them. A civil war is a slow, long-lasting burn. Americans, of all people, should know about that."

No wars might be fought if no ideal existed (in the spirit of John Lennon's "Imagine"), for example: capitalism, free democracy, freedom of religion etc. In other words, shut up and stay out of our affairs and send us money. Everybody thinks everybody should know something about what concerns everybody.

Going to jam now to Creedance Clearwater, "Fortunate son,"
We are subject to what our politicians believe we should know and we aren't obligated to know anything about foreigners or send them aid and abet in anyway. And that's where and when the church often ushers in political agendas and substantiates everything and anything according to Scripture to compel moral arguments. We've all heard Jesus was a Capitalist.

Ever hand a sign carrying hungry man a can of food and he was offended because money instead was not handed out?
Just my two cents.

 

[asterisktom]

No wars might be fought if no ideal existed, for example: capitalism, free democracy, freedom of religion etc. In other words, shut up and stay out of our affairs and send us money. Everybody thinks everybody should know something about what concerns everybody.

Going to jam now to Creedance Clearwater, "Fortunate son,"
We are subject to what our politicians believe we should know and we aren't obligated to know anything about foreigners or send them or aid and abet them in anyway. And that's where and when the church often ushers in political agendas and substantiates everything and anything according to Scripture. We've all heard Jesus was a Capitalist.

Ever hand a sign carrying hungry man a can of food and he was offended because money instead was not handed out?
Just my two cents.

"Fortunate Son" might very well be my favorite CCR song.

Idealism is great. As a Christian I intend to hold onto mine. The problem comes when the idealism is, like I wrote, combines with cluelessness. Most Americans and Europeans are uninformed on the Ukraine War. Rather, I should write "malinformed" - that really should be a word. It goes beyond being misinformed. Our mainstream media, US and European especially, are churning out disinfo that has poisonous effects on their readers and viewers. It is sickening to watch.

 

[asterisktom]

Finally, the reason that the vast majority of Ukrainians do not love Russia is the Holodomor. If anyone wants to know what that was, read here:

There is a vast difference between Soviets - especially, Stalin-era Soviets - and Russians. Most Russians I met there would cringe at your conflation of the two.

 

[Christforums]

Our mainstream media, US and European especially, are churning out disinfo that has poisonous effects on their readers and viewers.

Undoubtedly!

 

[Christforums]

"Fortunate Son" might very well be my favorite CCR song.

Idealism is great. As a Christian I intend to hold onto mine. The problem comes when the idealism is, like I wrote, combines with cluelessness. Most Americans and Europeans are uninformed on the Ukraine War. Rather, I should write "malinformed" - that really should be a word. It goes beyond being misinformed. Our mainstream media, US and European especially, are churning out disinfo that has poisonous effects on their readers and viewers. It is sickening to watch.

If I may a soldier doesn't necessarily involve themselves in politics. There are two "modes" of the President (political) and Commander and Chief). While I understand the media attempts to shift the outcome of war by information to persuade the general population and offer reason for a conscientious objector, a solider hasn't the right to speak insubordinately about the Commander and Chief. And, when a solider is dropped off somewhere overseas all the politics goes out the window soon as the first bullet whizzes overhead. Unless things have changed since I served, when commanded to shoot right there's no conscientious objector, questioning and reasoning leads to a break down in the chain of command.

If you hadn't seen Trump's address to the nation last night, he briefly spoke about record recruitment numbers which dwindled away during the Biden administration. When those kinds of things happen, it is w/ precedent the armed forces offer incentives to enlist such as higher amounts of G.I. Bill money etc. Matter of fact when I was going through basic training one day our Training Instructor asked 50+ men in our flight why they enlisted, the number one reason was for the G.I. Bill. Mind you, this was after we had taken our oath to protect and defend the Constitution (ideals) from both foreign and domestic threats. I was the only person in an entire Flight to state, "to serve my country," in the context of the oath made. Point being there are many reasons why soldiers enlist and fight including a way out of poverty or serving an ideal greater than themselves. If a man isn't willing to put aside all his own personal motivations and self-sacrifice even himself then IMO he shouldn't have enlisted.

 

[JonC]

The problem with Trump and Vance is that they have a very tenuous knowledge of history even recent history, and an equally tenuous hold on facts.
This latter may be deliberate; if Trump keeps saying that the U.S. has spent $315 billion supporting Ukraine instead of the true figure, c. $100 billion , he may be able to extort more rare earths out of Zelenskyy, but on history, I think they are both ignorant. There were plenty of people in 1938 saying that all Hitler wanted was security, and if the allies let him have Czechoslovakia, he would be satisfied.
Those who think that Putin will be satisfied with 20% or so of Ukraine should notice that Alexandr Lukashenko, the President of Byelorussia, who has been a poodle of Putin for many years, thought it necessary a few weeks ago to warn his master that Byelorussia would resist if Russia tried to take it over.
It is also worth mentioning that there has been something of a revival in Ukraine since the invasion, and the number and size of Baptist churches have increased dramatically. Where Putin has taken over, Baptist churches are suppressed and the only churches allowed are Russian Orthodox, completely controlled, of course, by Putin.
Extract from Ukraine Crisis - Slavic Gospel Association

"It may seem foolish to many to ask about evangelism and Gospel outreach in this broken country, but in reality there is so much in which to rejoice, as reports come in of thousands of men, women, and children being brought to Christ. In the midst of physical darkness and the moral depravity of war, the light of the Gospel is shining brightly and Christ is building His Church.
• In association with our partners in mission, over 30,000 Bible sets [adult and children’s Bibles] have been printed and distributed.
• A Christian literature factory in west Ukraine, supported by SGA UK, has, in the last 6 months, printed 100,000 New Testaments for adults, and 100,000 New Testaments for children, 300,000 various pieces of Christian literature, and 50,000 pocket sized Gospel booklets for the Ukrainian military.
• That same factory has also become a food distribution centre. More than 20,000 food boxes have been packed and prepared, and delivered to hungry people all over the country. Food for body and soul!
• It is estimated that around 20,000 more people have started to attend church, an expression of a hunger for the things of God and the Word of God.

On the borders of Ukraine, massive relief efforts continue, and many pastors and churches receiving help and support from SGA are continuing to minister to those forced out and fleeing from danger and death. The drain on these faithful people mentally, emotionally, and physically is immense, but they refuse to abandon their efforts. They refuse to become ‘war weary’, and in the strength and grace of the Lord, they continue to share the Gospel by word and deed to those who have suffered most in this seemingly unending conflict."

Finally, the reason that the vast majority of Ukrainians do not love Russia is the Holodomor. If anyone wants to know what that was, read here:

Holodomor

Teaser here

cla.umn.edu

I disagree (I don't know about Trump but Vance seems to be very educated concerning history.....either from studying as a hobby, from his time in the Marines, from Ohio State, from his time at Yale, or from his yime in the Senate....I can't say which).

But more importantly Trump and Vance seems to know the role the US government is to take under the US Constitution.

I do not know how it is in the UK, but in the US the Federal government has two primary responsibilities- national defense (not national presence) and providing for the social welfare.

The US spends more on defence than all of the other NATO nations combined. The US uses more of its GDP on defence than any other nation. The US picks up 66% of NATO's budget in direct and indirect contributions (16% in direct contributions). And the US pays the most for NATO and the UN. BUT the EU benefits the most in terms of defence.


The question for the US is whether this is a proper use of its limited funds. And with the Ukraine the question is whether the US interest is worth the cost (especially since it will be a decades long commitment of a large portion of its citizens money). Many Americans are just less willing to suffer in order to pay for the defence of the EU. I dont think most would have had a problem with some contribution to defending the EU, but contributions should match benefits.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There is a vast difference between Soviets - especially, Stalin-era Soviets - and Russians. Most Russians I met there would cringe at your conflation of the two.

I agree with the second part of your post.. I have visited Russia and found the Russians I met very friendly, and, so far as I could tell, peace-loving.
However, unless I'm very much mistaken, Putin was a Lieutenant Colonel in the KJB at the end of the Soviet era. It seems to me that he has drawn Russia back into the Soviet era. You might care to read this analysis.

Russia Is Back to the Stalinist Future

With a Soviet-style election, Vladimir Putin’s Russia has come full circle.

foreignpolicy.com

I suspect that many Russians are appalled by Putin's aggression, but it is very unwise to oppose Putin publicly if one wants to go on living for any length of time.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Interesting, a few yrs ago I remember Putin addressing the media and suggesting G-d does not need be removed from Socialism and the world should learn from the past mistake of Russia.

Putin is very supportive of the Russian Orthodox Church, and that organization is very supportive of him. There are also some quite big Baptist churches in the east of the country, around Irkutsk. However, I think you will struggle to find many Baptist churches in the big cities these days. If there are some, they must keep their heads very firmly down.
I visited St. Petersburg in 2012. It was the 200th anniversary of Napoleon's retreat from Moscow. We were treated to a wonderful rendition of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, complete with deafening cannons. But then some old Icon was produced from the vaults of the cathedral, the first time it had been seen for 50 years, and I watched as a huge queue of people formed to go up and kiss this picture presumably because they thought they would receive some sort of blessing from it. That seemed to be the level of religion in the city.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I disagree (I don't know about Trump but Vance seems to be very educated concerning history.....either from studying as a hobby, from his time in the Marines, from Ohio State, from his time at Yale, or from his time in the Senate....I can't say which).

I see no evidence of it.

But more importantly Trump and Vance seems to know the role the US government is to take under the US Constitution.

I do not know how it is in the UK, but in the US the Federal government has two primary responsibilities- national defense (not national presence) and providing for the social welfare.

I think most countries -and the USA until very recently - realise that it is better if national defense takes place outside one's country rather than inside it. That is why Britain joined with America after 9/11 in invading Afghanistan and (with much less justification) Iraq. Britain has around one sixth the population of America. We sent one sixth of the man-power and suffered one sixth of the casualties. That seems about fair to me. That Vance should forget (or be ignorant of) that does not speak very highly of him.

The US spends more on defence than all of the other NATO nations combined. The US uses more of its GDP on defence than any other nation. The US picks up 66% of NATO's budget in direct and indirect contributions (16% in direct contributions). And the US pays the most for NATO and the UN. BUT the EU benefits the most in terms of defence.

When the Soviet Union disintegrated, there was much talk of a 'peace dividend,' and I think the European countries embrased that idea rather too enthusiastically. Recent events have been a useful wake-up call to Europe and I don't fault Trump for that.

The question for the US is whether this is a proper use of its limited funds. And with the Ukraine the question is whether the US interest is worth the cost (especially since it will be a decades long commitment of a large portion of its citizens money). Many Americans are just less willing to suffer in order to pay for the defence of the EU. I don't think most would have had a problem with some contribution to defending the EU, but contributions should match benefits.

To be sure there should be a fairer distribution of the costs, and this is being arranged, but Trump's and Vance's actions remind me of what Joab said to King David, 'That you love your enemies and hate your friends' (2 Sam 19:6). Time will tell, but they seem to be about to give away a large chunk of Ukraine to Putin and impoverish the rest of the country by appropriating its natural wealth.

 

[percho]

46 seconds for future reference

Apparently new documents have been released recently that the news refuses to cover..

The documents released apparently specify the detailed plans of causing the war in Ukraine… This is some damning stuff and proves that the United States government is behind the Ukraine war.. https://t.me/Shadows_Of_Darkness

www.bitchute.com

 

[Silverhair]

So Trump really is the lackey of Putin.

With friends like the USA who needs enemies.

Why would anyone trust the US now?

 

[Silverhair]

"The United States launched a trade war against Canada their closest partner and Ally their closest friend at the same time they're talking about working positively with Russia appeasing Vladimir Putin a lying murderous dictator make that make sense." Prime Minister Justin Trudeau

 

[Silverhair]

Elon Musk’s AI chatbot estimates '75-85% likelihood Trump is a Putin-compromised asset'​

MSN

Interesting read. Gives you food for thought.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So, you take their assessment as gospel. I am glad that Trump is looking into reevaluate our commitment to the UN. They are not the conclave of disinterested wisdom that many seem to think they are. OAN has a good article on them. They abuse us, all the while sucking us dry financially. And for what?

The UN and their operation has been a concern of many presidents fora long time…Bush also was interested in dissolving our countries relationship and why he didn’t do it is in the past. I would support it moving forward and it’s good for Trump to move toward those ends.

I think the issue with Trump should be US objectives, regardless as to where Russia's interest falls.

The US was involved in removing an elected president from the Ukrane because that leader was pro-Russia. That is not democratic. And Zelenskyy is not the best example of a democratic leader either.

This is not to say that Putin is the "good guy".

But why should the US borrow money to send to Zelenskyy in order to keep a war going? Even if there is a peace by war that peace can only be maintained by strength which would mean continued funding by the US.

To end the war peacefully both nations (Russia and Ukraine) will have to compromise. This will require a trust that probably can't be had. But the idea of continuing to borrow money to give to a nation that does not have the resources to defend itself is not a good solution.

I get Israel. It is important to the US that Israel maintain a strong stance because their enemies have the objective of destroying us as well. But Ukraine is merely a pawn Europe is using in a proxy war to weaken a potential threat to Europe.

im not convinced Z is the guy but he is currents there and so if and when the Ukies extricate from Russia. Then they could have elections again. Honestly, is there anyone left residing in the Ukraine…aren’t they mostly living in Poland & Germany?

While the primaries are “day late and dollar short” (and off topic), most of the other candidates were better choices.


Nice revisionist history you have there. So what about all the countries that Russia saved from independence before Ukraine, was NATO responsible for that too. Was peace loving Putin FORCED a to invade country after country?



On the surface, we are reliving the appeasement of Adolf Hitler that made him bold and dragged the World into the Second World War. If we just allow Putin to conquer ONE MORE COUNTRY, then he will finally be satisfied and the world will have peace.

Right!!!

"The United States launched a trade war against Canada their closest partner and Ally their closest friend at the same time they're talking about working positively with Russia appeasing Vladimir Putin a lying murderous dictator make that make sense." Prime Minister Justin Trudeau

Correction….Trump launched this tariff crap. Anything we as citizens of The USA pay for from countries with tariffs is paid for by us…. So do you think most of us are in favor of paying more? Nobody with any brains here wants this…well maybe the MAGA hats (Trumps supporting idiots).