Vague Translations, Poor Translations and Mistranslations

[Paul from Antioch]

The temporary holding cell is Hades, not Gehenna.
The spirits of the lost remain in Hades until the resurrection of the dead. See Revelations 20:11-15.
No verse (I am aware of) says or suggests "tartaroo" is where those condemned in the Great White Throne judgment are tossed. Scripture says the Lake of fire (Revelations 20:15)

So then you are saying that "Hades" NOT "Gehenna" IS the "Temporary Holding Cell." Perhaps you may be correct in this, BUT, OTOH, (IMHO anyway) that's merely a location wherein I called it "Gehenna" and whereas you call it "Hades." The important fact is this: Whether one calls that location "Hades" or "Gehenna," the fact remains that whatever one chooses to call it, it STILL is only a "Temporary Holding Cell," and NOT the FINAL (& ETERNAL) location of all lost persons...Correct?

 

[Van]

So then you are saying that "Hades" NOT "Gehenna" IS the "Temporary Holding Cell." Perhaps you may be correct in this, BUT, OTOH, (IMHO anyway) that's merely a location wherein I called it "Gehenna" and whereas you call it "Hades." The important fact is this: Whether one calls that location "Hades" or "Gehenna," the fact remains that whatever one chooses to call it, it STILL is only a "Temporary Holding Cell," and NOT the FINAL (& ETERNAL) location of all lost persons...Correct?

Scripture, not me, refers to Hades as the temporary holding cell. Did you read Revelation 20:11-15. Here it is for you:

Rev 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire​

Here we see that those fallen human spirits in Hades went to the Great White Throne judgement, then after being judged were thrown into the lake of fired.

As far as places where more than one name many apply, sometimes sheol refers to our physical grave, and sometimes to the place the human spirits of the lost go. Thus in this usage, the meaning is the same as the New Testament Hades. And less certain, the Lake of Fire may be located in Gehenna. Jesus says both the body and the soul can be destroyed in Gehenna, and since body and soul are tossed into the Lake of Fire, it appears they are in the same place.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

"When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had accepted direction to eternal life believed.

false doctrine.

 

[Van]

Improvement in the clarity of translation will be rejected by those whose views are based on reading into ambiguity.

1) Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God."

2) 1Corinthians 2:14: "But an unspiritual man does not accept the solid food things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

3) Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD when sinning:

4) Acts of the Apostles 13:48: When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had accepted direction to eternal life believed.

5) James 2:5: Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor to the world, yet rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

6) 1 John 2:2 and he is the means of salvation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole of humanity.

 

[Van]

I see I have flubbed again. I have (in the recent past) posted two conflicting "clarifications" of Ephesians 2:8.

Here is the first one:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved by means of your credited faith; and that salvation is not of yourselves, salvation is the gift of God;

And here is the other from this thread:
Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God."

In considering the context, I believe the second interpretation is probably the correct one. Literally, if we translate "dia" as showing causality, we get "For by grace you have been saved by means of - the faith (or faithfulness), thus the gift is not based on you, but on God. Sometimes Paul seems to use "the faith" to refer to Christ, see Galatians 3:23. This view adopts the variant that includes the article. However, the inclusion of the article is not essential, as "by means of faithfulness" can also be understood to mean Christ's faithfulness.

 

[Van]

Let us consider John 6:37:
NASB1995
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

As usual when we ask, "all" of what, the answer is "everyone." So "Everyone the Father...."

"Gives Me" is usually thought to mean those designated for salvation, but it appears to refer to the action of giving with the result of arriving.

Thus we have, Everyone the Father gives will arrive within Me....

Next we have the one who comes indicating a possible passive action, thus

and the one transferred to Me...

I will never cast out.

Putting the verse back together we get as a less ambiguous verse, Everyone the Father gives will arrive within Me, and the one transferred to Me, I will never cast out.

 

[Van]

Everyone the Father gives will arrive within Me, and the one transferred to Me, I will never cast out.

The Greek word is used to describe the appearance of someone being propelled or brought somewhere. Jesus coming on the clouds or coming "in the flesh." John the Baptist coming into the world, as brought about according to God's plan. Rain coming to the earth, propelled by gravity. Here the idea is God puts the individual into Christ.

Transported might be more appropriate, being taken from the realm of darkness and placed in the realm of the Kingdom.

 

[37818]

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God."

Well then the individuals faith (Romans 4:5) really comes after one is save then. Right?

 

[Van]

Well then the individuals faith (Romans 4:5) really comes after one is save then. Right?

Right, first we add two and two and get seven, then Christ's faithfulness becomes our faith. Your view is brilliant...

 

[37818]

. . . first we add two and two and get seven, . . .

Left?

 

[Van]

Left?

You are wasting posts in an effort to suppress truth. Here is the bogus post:
Well then the individuals faith (Romans 4:5) really comes after one is save then. Right?
Saved through faith requires, if you actually believe scripture, that faith precedes salvation. Romans 3:25, Galatians 3:14, Ephesians 3:17 and 2 Timothy 3:15

 

[37818]

You are wasting posts in an effort to suppress truth. Here is the bogus post:
Well then the individuals faith (Romans 4:5) really comes after one is save then. Right?
Saved through faith requires, if you actually believe scripture, that faith precedes salvation. Romans 3:25, Galatians 3:14, Ephesians 3:17 and 2 Timothy 3:15

You add to the word of God changing "through faith" to "by means of Christ's faithfulness." Where the individuals faith is not needed.

 

[Van]

You add to the word of God changing "through faith" to "by means of Christ's faithfulness." Where the individuals faith is not needed.

I added in italics a clarification of God's word. For you to claim the result indicated false doctrine is unappreciated. And you ignored the partial listing of verses indicating our salvation is through (dia) faith and to deny "dia" is used to show causality and is translated "by means of" is reprehensible. Among the translations translating "dia" as "by means of" are the NIV, ESV, CSB, and NASB.

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God."

 

[37818]

I added in italics a clarification of God's word. For you to claim the result indicated false doctrine is unappreciated. And you ignored the partial listing of verses indicating our salvation is through (dia) faith and to deny "dia" is used to show causality and is translated "by means of" is reprehensible. Among the translations translating "dia" as "by means of" are the NIV, ESV, CSB, and NASB.

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved by means of Christ's faithfulness, thus the gift is not based on you, but on God."

The Greek "of the faith" is genitive. [Yes, it seems that dia often followed by the genitive case, but not always.] So where is the faith of the one being saved in Ephesians 2:8? Because faith is fundamental to anyone knowing any truth.

 

[Van]

The Greek "of the faith" is genitive. [Yes, it seems that dia often followed by the genitive case, but not always.] So where is the faith of the one being saved in Ephesians 2:8? Because faith is fundamental to anyone knowing any truth.

We believe in Christ's faithfulness, in His shed blood for the forgiveness of sins. Several verses present Christ's faithfulness, and some present our faith in that faithfulness.

Gal 2:16 (NET)
yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

 

[37818]

false doctrine.

What was false?

 

[37818]

We believe in Christ's faithfulness, in His shed blood for the forgiveness of sins. Several verses present Christ's faithfulness, and some present our faith in that faithfulness.

Gal 2:16 (NET)
yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Christ's faith or faithfulness as you want to state it, is not at issue. That the individual has faith, is at issue, Epheisans 2:8 "through of the faith" if you will. Yes, Galatians mentions ". . . even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, . . ." Where is the individual's faith in Epheians 2:1-8?

 

[Van]

Christ's faith or faithfulness as you want to state it, is not at issue. That the individual has faith, is at issue, Epheisans 2:8 "through of the faith" if you will. Yes, Galatians mentions ". . . even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, . . ." Where is the individual's faith in Epheians 2:1-8?

Every principle of biblical doctrine does not appear in every verse. I provided a verse (Galatians 2:16) where both doctrines (Christ's faithfulness and our faith in Christ) were stated.

I understand the traditional understanding of Ephesians 2:8 is through or by means of "our faith in Christ" but I believe, given the context, that "Christ's faithfulness" is the actual idea.

 

[Van]

Here are verses where something similar to my understanding of Ephesians 2:8 is presented.
What verses display "pisteos" being used in a subjective genitive phrase?

Romans 3:3 What then? If some did not believe, does their unbelief nullify God's faithfulness?

Romans 3:22 namely, the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faithfulness for all who believe. For there is no distinction,

Romans 3:26 This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus' faithfulness.

Galatians 2:16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by Jesus Christ's faithfulness. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by Christ's faithfulness and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the Son of God's faithfulness, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture imprisoned everything and everyone under sin so that the promise could be given - because of Jesus Christ's faithfulness - to those who believe.

Ephesians 3:12 in whom we have boldness and confident access to God because of Christ's faithfulness.

Philippians 3:9 and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ's faithfulness - a righteousness from God that is in fact based on Christ's faithfulness.

 

[37818]

Every principle of biblical doctrine does not appear in every verse. I provided a verse (Galatians 2:16) where both doctrines (Christ's faithfulness and our faith in Christ) were stated.

I understand the traditional understanding of Ephesians 2:8 is through or by means of "our faith in Christ" but I believe, given the context, that "Christ's faithfulness" is the actual idea.

In Ephesians? It seems you are reading that interpretation into Epheians 2:8.