Water and Spirit

[JonC]

So what was the 'cut-off point' where saints began to be born from above? It evidently was already in effect at the time of this dialog between Christ and Nicodemus.

The Cross.

 

[kyredneck]

You're slave to your presuppositions JonC.

 

[JonC]

You're slave to your presuppositions JonC.

I was thinking the same of you...see, we aren't so different after all :thumbsup:

 

[Greektim]

You're slave to your presuppositions JonC.

Aren't we all

 

[percho]

A couple of questions.

Water in John 3:5, is it the same as water in 1 John 5:6?

If yes, what water? If no, how different?

Is it proper translation to put the word, "the," ahead of spirit in John 3:5?
Does adding the word, "the," influence our understanding of the verse?

 

[kyredneck]

I was thinking the same of you...see, we aren't so different after all :thumbsup:

How does one become 'born from above'? Christ makes it plain, 'it behoveth us to be born from above'. How do we do that?

 

[kyredneck]

....Is it proper translation to put the word, "the," ahead of spirit in John 3:5?

Young's includes it:

5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; Jn 3 YLT

Does adding the word, "the," influence our understanding of the verse?

I think so. As I said earlier, I lean toward the equation being:

Profession plus the heavenly birth equals saved.

 

[kyredneck]

....scratch that one.....

 

[DHK]

This comes from a discussion on a previous thread.

John 3:4-8
Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

What does it mean to be born of water and the Spirit?

This is the OP.

Thousand Hills made an outstanding reply in post #2
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2223804&postcount=2

Darrell agreed.

But more or less since that time the discussion has centered around kyredneck's obsession with posts like:

That's about as clear as mud to me. I'll rephrase the question:

Were saints in OT times 'born from above'?

Forget about "being born of water and of the Spirit," or of being "born again," or even "born anew," as long as one is "born from above" then that is what is important. And the thread has basically been hijacked to make sure that we all have been regenerated or born from above.
The thread has left its basic premise:

What does it mean to be born of water and the Spirit?

To substantiate what Thousand Hills said, I offer what Peter said:

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The water is symbolic of the Word of God.
If the Word of God has not played a significant part in your new birth, then I suggest you are not born again.
Or, that is what Peter is teaching.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

To substantiate what Thousand Hills said, I offer what Peter said:

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The water is symbolic of the Word of God.
If the Word of God has not played a significant part in your new birth, then I suggest you are not born again.
Or, that is what Peter is teaching.

Brother DHK,

The "word of God" in 1 Peter 1:23 that makes one born again is not the written word, but rather Jesus himself who it is written of "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...13 ...Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," (John 1:1,13,14a)

Those who are made born again by Jesus the word, are regenerated by Jesus speaking to those who are spiritually dead, thus making them alive, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25). This verse in John cannot be referring to the last days as Jesus says the hour "now is". Also, a gospel preacher can speak the words of God, but they cannot use "the voice of the Son of God".

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The water is symbolic of the Word of God.
If.

Brother DHK,

The water is not the word of God in John 3. As far as water referenced in John 3 and also found in Titus 3: "The washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost" There is a close and inseparable connection between "water" and "Spirit." The numerous washings in the Mosaic law made water familiar to the Jews as an emblem of purification. By the term "water," Christ meant the "Spirit." This is shown in Isaiah 44:3 “3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:, and Ezek 36:25-27, “25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. By "water and Spirit," Christ meant , "purifying Spirit," or "Holy Spirit." A similar expression is found in Matt. iii. 11---"He shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire."Both fire and water are purifying and powerful principles, and are used to represent the Holy Spirit.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

The "word of God" in 1 Peter 1:23 that makes one born again is not the written word, but rather Jesus himself who it is written of "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...13 ...Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," (John 1:1,13,14a)

Those who are made born again by Jesus the word, are regenerated by Jesus speaking to those who are spiritually dead, thus making them alive, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25). This verse in John cannot be referring to the last days as Jesus says the hour "now is". Also, a gospel preacher can speak the words of God, but they cannot use "the voice of the Son of God".

God bless,

Brother Joe

1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
--It seems fairly clear that Word of God refers to the gospel, as defined here by Peter.
You are entitled to your opinion by I take Peter's word over yours.

Why not reply to Thousand Hill's original response?

If then the Lord Jesus used the word "water" emblematically in John 3:5, to what was He referring? We answer, The Word of God. This is ever the instrument used by God in regeneration. In every other passage where the instrument of the new birth is described, it is always the Word of God that is mentioned. In Psalm 119:50 we read, "For Thy word hath quickened me." Again, in 1 Corinthians 4:15 we find the apostle saying, "I have begotten you through the gospel." Again, we are told "Of his own will begat he us with (what?—baptism? no but with) the word of truth" (James 1:18). Peter declares, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Pet. 1:23).

The new birth, then, is by the Word of God, and one of the emblems of the Word is "water." God employs quite a number of emblems to describe the various characteristics and qualities of His Word. It is likened to a "lamp" (<19B9105>Psalm 119:105) because it illumines. It is likened unto a "hammer" (Jer. 23:29) because it breaks up the hard heart. It is likened unto "water" because it cleanses: see Psalm 119:9; John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26: "Born of water" means born of the cleansing and purifying Word of God.

 

[Greektim]

1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
--It seems fairly clear that Word of God refers to the gospel, as defined here by Peter.
You are entitled to your opinion by I take Peter's word over yours.

Why not reply to Thousand Hill's original response?

So the Scripture that you quote trumps the Scripture he quotes??? Your opinion is also Peter's but JonC's is Paul's and he is wrong???????

And you are a moderator????

 

[DHK]

So the Scripture that you quote trumps the Scripture he quotes??? Your opinion is also Peter's but JonC's is Paul's and he is wrong???????

And you are a moderator????

First, there is no rule against any moderator engaging in debate. So don't use that as a club. It doesn't get you any brownie points and it doesn't further the debate any.

Second, he has avoided the context of the Scripture I quoted. It has nothing to do with any other Scripture.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Verse 23 plainly teaches that the word of God is necessary for regeneration (or the new birth).
Verse 25 defines that Word, not as Jesus Christ, but as the Gospel.
It is impossible for one to be regenerated without the Word of God. The Scripture is clear on that. This passage does not refer to Christ, but the gospel. No one can be saved/regenerated without the gospel (and both happen simultaneously.

 

[Greektim]

First, there is no rule against any moderator engaging in debate. So don't use that as a club. It doesn't get you any brownie points and it doesn't further the debate any.

Second, he has avoided the context of the Scripture I quoted. It has nothing to do with any other Scripture.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Verse 23 plainly teaches that the word of God is necessary for regeneration (or the new birth).
Verse 25 defines that Word, not as Jesus Christ, but as the Gospel.
It is impossible for one to be regenerated without the Word of God. The Scripture is clear on that. This passage does not refer to Christ, but the gospel. No one can be saved/regenerated without the gospel (and both happen simultaneously.

And you failed to engage w/ the passages he used... that kind of one-sidedness is not helpful and deplorable for a moderator. That was my point. There was plenty there to talk of water and the Spirit together. And John 1 defines Jesus as the Word of God. So unless you believe Scripture contradicts itself, then you have to engage w/ the other verses proffered, Mr. Mod.

 

[JonC]

Second, he has avoided the context of the Scripture I quoted. It has nothing to do with any other Scripture.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Verse 23 plainly teaches that the word of God is necessary for regeneration (or the new birth).
Verse 25 defines that Word, not as Jesus Christ, but as the Gospel.
It is impossible for one to be regenerated without the Word of God. The Scripture is clear on that. This passage does not refer to Christ, but the gospel. No one can be saved/regenerated without the gospel (and both happen simultaneously.

First, I did not avoid the passage you posted as much as I did not see it. This is an example of how you operate off of your presuppositions instead of getting the facts. I was responding from work on my phone. In the future, please feel free to PM me and point out something like this and I will respond (even if it is disinterest in your position, I will let you know).

Secondly, it is not proper to go to Peter to define what John 3 is speaking of when John has just defined his own terms in the first chapter. When John refers to the Word here, he is referring to Christ and not the gospel message. I mentioned Paul by way of reference to another's post (but even then, I suggested that we did not have to stray from the Gospel of John and OT references to substantiate what "born of water and Spirit" means.

Third, you elevate the message when you should be focusing on the subject of that message. This is exactly what you are doing in 1 Peter (the point is not the gospel message, but the gospel in that message....1 Peter 1:20-21 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Fourth, the "water" which you believe is the word of God as expressed in 1 Peter 1 was foreign to Nicodemus. It doesn't make sense. Peter speaks of Christ's atoning sacrifice in the gospel message. We cannot dismiss Jesus' words to Nicodemus as mere code to be discovered at a later date. Nicodemus would have recognized being born of "water and Spirit" from Old Testament teachings. I seriously doubt he would have connected this with an epistle not yet written about something not yet fulfilled. Your interpretation cannot fit within the narrative of John 3...it is utterly impossible.

Again, if I avoided anything, it was not the context of the Scripture you quoted but your misapplication of that scripture. It was not intentional, but was merely due to a very busy day.

 

[DHK]

Again, if I avoided anything, it was not the context of the Scripture you quoted but your misapplication of that scripture. It was not intentional, but was merely due to a very busy day.

I am not sure what you are referring to Jon. I'll take time to answer your post if you wish, but the first time I posted in this thread was post #89. Since then Bro. Joseph posted twice, and then Greek Tim posted. I am not sure what post you are referring to when you say "If I avoided anything..."

 

[Greektim]

I am not sure what you are referring to Jon. I'll take time to answer your post if you wish, but the first time I posted in this thread was post #89. Since then Bro. Joseph posted twice, and then Greek Tim posted. I am not sure what post you are referring to when you say "If I avoided anything..."

First, there is no rule against any moderator engaging in debate. So don't use that as a club. It doesn't get you any brownie points and it doesn't further the debate any.

Second, he has avoided the context of the Scripture I quoted. It has nothing to do with any other Scripture.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Verse 23 plainly teaches that the word of God is necessary for regeneration (or the new birth).
Verse 25 defines that Word, not as Jesus Christ, but as the Gospel.
It is impossible for one to be regenerated without the Word of God. The Scripture is clear on that. This passage does not refer to Christ, but the gospel. No one can be saved/regenerated without the gospel (and both happen simultaneously.

I suppose he is referring to this where you say he avoided something. :wavey:

 

[JonC]

I am not sure what you are referring to Jon. ..."

As I look at the posts again, I see that you were probably referencing Joseph's comment. I took it differently. My bad and I am sorry for my misunderstanding. It was a rough day yesterday and I was not up to par.

Back to the OP, I agree with Bro Joseph. It is most likely that the passage in Jn 3 is referencing Ezekiel (for reason's I've already mentioned). I think the 1 Peter support for Jesus' use of "born of water" being the gospel message is flawed for the reasons mentioned in #96. I simply do not believe Nicodemus would have made that connection. I also think that John adequately presented the context of the passage (of the Word being Christ). I view Pinks position as jumping through too many hoops erroneously given John 1-3 as a whole.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
--It seems fairly clear that Word of God refers to the gospel, as defined here by Peter.
You are entitled to your opinion by I take Peter's word over yours.

Why not reply to Thousand Hill's original response?

Hi Brother DHK,

Yes, Peter does say in a couple of verses later, "And this is the word which by the gospel preached unto you." This actually would support a belief that the "word" is Christ. If "the gospel" and "the word" are synonymous what Peter is saying wouldn't make any sense because be would in effect be saying "And this is the word which by the word is preached unto you". However, notice he distinguishes in this verse "the word" from "the gospel" by saying "this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you", thus they must be separate things. Now, if you substitute Christ in the verse in place of the word "word" the verse makes sense. Here it is, "And this is the Christ why by the gospel is preached unto you".

As far as Thousand Hill's original response, go back to the verses he used in his quote to support his belief. Nearly every verse he gave to support the written "word" as being the regenerative means by which one becomes born again can again be reconciled if the word "word" in each verse actually refers to the living word Christ.

God bless,

Brother Joe