Wealthy Pastors

[Bro Tony]

Many times it is done out of concern for overshadowing the replacement's ministry. If a new pastor comes in while the old pastor is still there, the new pastor often struggles to exercise leadership.

That is exactly right Stefan. There are so many different dynamics that happen when one pastor leaves and is replaced with another. Especially when the former has been at a church for many years like Morgan's senario. My guess would be though that it is rare that the former pastors does not have contact with close personal friends from the former church, but does not keep contact with all the members. You cannot imagine what would be said of a former pastor if it was found that he is continuing to contact the members of his former church.

Pastoring is a unique situation, you build a family, you poor your life into them, you love them, you lead many to the Lord, you marry many, you see them born, you bury them-----then you hand them over to a new shepherd. It is not easy to leave a people you love, and let them go. Please trust me on this as my wife and I have just gone through this. BTW, in many ways I think it is harder on the pastor's wife.

Blessings,

Bro Tony

 

[MorganT]

I see both of your points I have just never looked at it from the otherside. Thank you.

 

[John of Japan]

Very interesting thread. :thumbsup:

I thought I would duck in and add a little more from the missionary's perspective. There are times when the missionary stays too long on the field and becomes a burden to the other missionaries and thus a detriment to the work. If I have to be running to the hospital or doing stuff with the bureaucracy or handling church matters for an old timer who is running out of energy to do it himself, he becomes a liability to the Lord's work. On the other hand, if he retires from the field, he may find a ministry in the homeland where his great experience can help increase the churches burden for missions.

One of my favorite missionaries is retiring very shortly from his field at age 66. He plans to do translation work, and furlough replacement work (interim pastor for a missionary who needs a furlough). Another old gem of a missionary from Japan, Dr. Jim Norton, spent about 45 years on the field, and now does missions conferences representing the board. More power to them!

In my own case, if and when I retire from the field, I'm hoping to teach missions for a few years somewhere in the homeland. I don't ever want to completely "retire" from God's work. The Lord will have to retire me, as He finally did my father with Alzheimer's after he preached the Gospel for 60 years.

 

[John of Japan]

Many times it is done out of concern for overshadowing the replacement's ministry. If a new pastor comes in while the old pastor is still there, the new pastor often struggles to exercise leadership.

This is very true. I have seen it happen again and again.

On the other hand, sometimes the replacement can completely blow it without having the old pastor around. I know one great BBF church where the father pastored for 40-50 years, then left it in charge of his son and then went off to join another church. Unfortunately, the son practically ruined the church. Should have asked his Dad for advice!

 

[LeBuick]

This is very true. I have seen it happen again and again.

On the other hand, sometimes the replacement can completely blow it without having the old pastor around. I know one great BBF church where the father pastored for 40-50 years, then left it in charge of his son and then went off to join another church. Unfortunately, the son practically ruined the church. Should have asked his Dad for advice!

Down in Shreveport, LA a father gave his Church to his son. He started attending a little country Church and soon became the pastor. The members from the Church he left slowly began moving to the little country Church.

When a man has pastored one Church 40 or 50 years, he is the only pastor a lot of the members ever had. It's to start following another mans leadership when the one you view as the leader is still around.

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

It has been a tightrope-walking act for me since leaving my pastorate two years ago. We did not move away ... we have been in our home for 35 years and are not interested in going anywhere else, and besides there were new opportunities for me here. But in my closing service at the pastorate I told them I would not come to do anything at the church without the consent and invitation of the new pastor, and I have held to that, particularly when, as I expected, families have asked me to do funerals.

We have also been rather cautious about contacting members, and when we did so, it was for a personal/private reason, not to talk about the church. Only yesterday we attended a surprise birthday party for one of the members, and were glad to see a number of church folks there, but I am glad to say that it felt like friendship stuff and not meddling with the church. No one volunteered any information about "what's going on" and we didn't ask.

The point that was made about the new pastor gaining help from the retiring one is well taken, too. Once my successor was named, before he moved to the field he had about a dozen lengthy emails from me, assessing various aspects of the life of the church. Then soon after he arrived I took him to lunch and answered all the questions I could. I hope it has helped him without prejudicing him.

We are a long way from the "Wealthy Pastors" theme in the original post, except to say that my successor is being paid about $20,000 more than I was, but he still is not wealthy, not in Washington, DC!

 

[LeBuick]

We are a long way from the "Wealthy Pastors" theme in the original post, except to say that my successor is being paid about $20,000 more than I was, but he still is not wealthy, not in Washington, DC!

You know, they brought me in making $100 more per Sunday than they paid my Dad. he had 7 doctorate's and a PHD with 57 years of Pastoral experience. I have a MTh and had a "know it all" attitude.

Notice I said had, my first month, the deaconesses wanted to change a part of how we do the Lords Supper. I thought, man that sounds good, let's go for it. What I didn't know was they brought it up before the Church a few years back and met strong opposition. You know what happened, we tried the new way one time and now everything is back to normal and I refuse to change a thing! :laugh:

Anyone brings me a suggestion now and my response is, "I don't know, I guess we'll have to pray on that."

 

[MorganT]

OK here is the article I read that prompted me to start this thread I would post it here however it is copyrighted and therefore I will just post a link. It was written by John Macauthor.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/GTYW09.htm

Read it and let me know your feelings on the article. It starts out: Some modern church leaders fancy themselves businessmen, media figures, entertainers, psychologists, philosophers, or lawyers. Those notions contrast sharply with the way Scripture portrays spiritual leaders.

This is why I asked about Wealthy Pastors.

 

[MorganT]

OK here is the article I read that prompted me to start this thread I would post it here however it is copyrighted and therefore I will just post a link. It was written by John Macauthor.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/GTYW09.htm

Read it and let me know your feelings on the article. It starts out: Some modern church leaders fancy themselves businessmen, media figures, entertainers, psychologists, philosophers, or lawyers. Those notions contrast sharply with the way Scripture portrays spiritual leaders.

This is why I asked about Wealthy Pastors.

Here is a good read also http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/MONEY.TXT
These two together add up to a very interesting ideas in my head and makes me wonder wonder wonder.

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

Now the question becomes, "Why do people follow and support these greedy pastors?". We all have seen churches that pay lavish salaries and give exorbitant gifts and encourage all kinds of largess. Why? Is it a superstition, in which there is a fear of offending "God's anointed"? Is it a works-righteousness, in which there is a hope of purchasing God's favor? Is it fear, thinking that if we do not give, the preacher will denounce us and make us the object of public ridicule?

I am thinking of a church here in Washington where, according to one of its deacons (whose wife was a member of my church), their new pastor, after he accepted their call and arrived, announced that he "needed" $20,000 more than they were paying. The deacon spoke of how disappointed many of the members were, but said, "But he's here, he's the pastor, what can we do?" They paid up and the pastor is still in place ... probably having been given cost-of-living increments every year thereafter.

I am thinking of another church in the Washington suburbs where the new pastor, shortly after arrival, told the leadership that instead of a stated salary, he wanted 10% of every Sunday morning offering! (It's a large and prosperous church, so I am guessing that that would add up to $300,000 a year!). And he wanted them to sell the parsonage and invest the proceeds in a much larger and grander house, which they would then deed over to him! To their credit, the church voted against these proposals. The pastor is still there, but one wonders about severely damaged credibility. And what are the odds he will try some other gambit to secure his own wealth?

I just marvel at congregations' going along with this kind of thing. Where is our Baptist congregational polity?!

 

[Lagardo]

I just marvel at congregations' going along with this kind of thing. Where is our Baptist congregational polity?!

The last church I served as a youth minister was set up a little different. The church had a "leadership team" that was made up of the pastoral team (aside from the pastor and myself, these were volunteers appointed by the pastor), and the administrative team (vote on by the church.) This team made most of the decisions, but anything big was then taken to the church for a vote. Shortly after I left, the pastor dismissed the administrative team claiming they were no longer needed. He then re-wrote the budget and gave himself a 30% raise.

He is still there, although for some reason, giving is down. Its as though people don't trust where they give their money...go figure.

 

[LeBuick]

Now the question becomes, "Why do people follow and support these greedy pastors?". We all have seen churches that pay lavish salaries and give exorbitant gifts and encourage all kinds of largess. Why? Is it a superstition, in which there is a fear of offending "God's anointed"? Is it a works-righteousness, in which there is a hope of purchasing God's favor? Is it fear, thinking that if we do not give, the preacher will denounce us and make us the object of public ridicule??!

Could it be the preacher started the Church and pays himself whatever he wants?

 

[Revmitchell]

A pastors salary has nothing to do with his education, experience, age, or how other secular fields are being paid. One is called by God the same as another. One is doing the same work as the other. As much as the church can afford is what he should get. His ability to perform is not based on education, and experience but on God. We need to get the secualr godless standards out of the church. We need God called pastors not hirlings. The pastor is not an employee. And the church should seek Gods face on how much to pay the pastor and nothing else.

 

[El_Guero]

what it costs to live

Now, I don't know what all has been discussed. And this may have been addressed.

Some places where a family might buy a home - you have to be rich to live there.

I was considered for a church planting job where the middle of the road home cost almost 600k . . . and they wanted me to live in that community. The 2 bed 2 bath (about 1400 square feet) was well over 400k without upgrades of any kind.

At the standard 40% of monthly income to pay the mortgage, a morgage of 4k a month would yield an income of 10k a month . . . 120k a year is a lot to expect a pastor to pretend he has when the church planting organization wants him to take the position at 48k per year . . .

Guess where I am not . . .

 

[Baptist Believer]

This is slightly off-topic, but I wanted to share the story of two men I knew back in my college days as a young ministry student. They have left a very strong impression on me:

I've known two men who were very wealthy (tens of millions or more in personal assets) through family businesses and oil revenue who started churches in their cities after they became followers of Jesus. The local First Baptist Church desperately wanted both of them as members, and frequently pressed them for funds for building programs and "church family" needs.

But the two of them, somewhat independently (although they were friends), realized that the local churches weren't doing much for the poor of the community, or those who had severe addiction problems. Each of them started Baptist churches with likeminded Baptists in the city in the poorer parts of town, and launched them with social ministries to the community (food, household supplies, home repairs, automobile repairs, assistance with job training, etc.). As they served, they shared their faith in a non-churchy way. They began holding worship services where those men preached, and many came to Christ. As people in the congregation came to Christ and had their lives transformed, they took on leadership roles and began serving others and sharing their faith in love.

In the beginning, both men paid for all the expenses out of their pockets. Eventually, as the congregation grew and the membership began giving, the men asked for a salary that grew from a few hundred dollars a month up to a modest living wage. (They reasoned that a church needs to be comfortable supporting a vocational pastor, even though they didn't "need" the money personally. I was under the impression, that they donated their salary to a worthy local charity, so that the money wouldn't automatically go directly back into the church budget.)

Both churches grew rapidly and have spawned a number of other churches in the region. One of those men I mentioned left his original church (on very good terms) and began three other churches the same way. As far as I know, all four churches are healthy and productive, drawing their strength from evangelizing those who are overlooked by the "regular" churches of the region. Sadly, at least one of those men has gone to be with the Lord, but his legacy remains.

Both of those men were very wealthy, but they did not see their wealth as privilege or status, they managed wealth as a responsibility.

 

[kubel]

In some assemblies, pastors are grossly underpaid. In others (like the article mentioned), pastors are elevated almost to the position of a celebrity and pay them massive salaries.

I personally would like to see a balance, appropriately using Gods money within the means of the church. That doesn't mean he should be made wealthy, nor does it mean he should be made poor. I think he should be given an income that reflects the financial status of the church, without reaching into either of the two extremes.

 

[gb93433]

Now the question becomes, "Why do people follow and support these greedy pastors?". We all have seen churches that pay lavish salaries and give exorbitant gifts and encourage all kinds of largess. Why? Is it a superstition, in which there is a fear of offending "God's anointed"? Is it a works-righteousness, in which there is a hope of purchasing God's favor? Is it fear, thinking that if we do not give, the preacher will denounce us and make us the object of public ridicule?

I think a lot of the answer lies in what a non-Christian asked me one time. He asked me why do such idiots follow these men? He was speaking of the Christians as idiots and referring to the TV preachers.

For every greedy pastor I think there are 100 or more who are very selfless and often sacrifice their families to help others.

It wasn’t too long ago that O.S. Hawkins left FBC, Dallas and made more money at the annuity board than as a pastor at FBC.

Remember Spurgeon was given large amounts of money but he also gave most of it away. He also went to smaller congregation and embarrassed the congregation by telling them that they were not paying their pastor enough.

Why would the SBC give Paige Patterson a larger library by adding onto the president’s home that is about 3000+ square feet just to house his books. Why would the SBC give him so much money so he can go on African safaris year after year when we have African pastors who feel fortunate to own a bicycle so they can get to their three congregations they preach at in one long day.

I would rather give a man one million a year knowing that he would make wise use of it than one dollar to a man who is greedy.

Years ago I was under a pastor who gave so much it was amazing. I learned a lot more about giving. There was a time when the treasurer stood before the congregation and told them they might have to cut the pastor’s salary. The people did not allow that to happen. He took care of the people and the people took care of him until the day he died.

I like to hear the name TC Jester which is a street named after a pastor at Baptist Temple in Houston years ago who gave over ½ of his salary to help people.

 

[gb93433]

This is slightly off-topic, but I wanted to share the story of two men I knew back in my college days as a young ministry student. They have left a very strong impression on me:

I've known two men who were very wealthy (tens of millions or more in personal assets) through family businesses and oil revenue who started churches in their cities after they became followers of Jesus. The local First Baptist Church desperately wanted both of them as members, and frequently pressed them for funds for building programs and "church family" needs.

But the two of them, somewhat independently (although they were friends), realized that the local churches weren't doing much for the poor of the community, or those who had severe addiction problems. Each of them started Baptist churches with likeminded Baptists in the city in the poorer parts of town, and launched them with social ministries to the community (food, household supplies, home repairs, automobile repairs, assistance with job training, etc.). As they served, they shared their faith in a non-churchy way. They began holding worship services where those men preached, and many came to Christ. As people in the congregation came to Christ and had their lives transformed, they took on leadership roles and began serving others and sharing their faith in love.

In the beginning, both men paid for all the expenses out of their pockets. Eventually, as the congregation grew and the membership began giving, the men asked for a salary that grew from a few hundred dollars a month up to a modest living wage. (They reasoned that a church needs to be comfortable supporting a vocational pastor, even though they didn't "need" the money personally. I was under the impression, that they donated their salary to a worthy local charity, so that the money wouldn't automatically go directly back into the church budget.)

Both churches grew rapidly and have spawned a number of other churches in the region. One of those men I mentioned left his original church (on very good terms) and began three other churches the same way. As far as I know, all four churches are healthy and productive, drawing their strength from evangelizing those who are overlooked by the "regular" churches of the region. Sadly, at least one of those men has gone to be with the Lord, but his legacy remains.

Both of those men were very wealthy, but they did not see their wealth as privilege or status, they managed wealth as a responsibility.

I would assume Abraham was much like you described.

 

[MorganT]

In some assemblies, pastors are grossly underpaid. In others (like the article mentioned), pastors are elevated almost to the position of a celebrity and pay them massive salaries.

I personally would like to see a balance, appropriately using Gods money within the means of the church. That doesn't mean he should be made wealthy, nor does it mean he should be made poor. I think he should be given an income that reflects the financial status of the church, without reaching into either of the two extremes.

Amen I think you have said it in a nutshell with this statement.

 

[LeBuick]

A pastors salary has nothing to do with his education, experience, age, or how other secular fields are being paid. One is called by God the same as another. One is doing the same work as the other. As much as the church can afford is what he should get. His ability to perform is not based on education, and experience but on God. We need to get the secualr godless standards out of the church. We need God called pastors not hirlings. The pastor is not an employee. And the church should seek Gods face on how much to pay the pastor and nothing else.

I agree with you except to say the Churches where the Dr's, Lawyers and big money makers attend usually want a PHD in the pulpit. So the formula can work itself out.