Were they really saved?

[standingfirminChrist]

In my opinion, you should refrain from throwing that allegation out. That is a serious charge, and we should not be flippant in accusing another brother in Christ of this.

Oh, but it is ok for you to accuse me of things? Is this a one way street? Only your way?

Besides, the Bible does disagree with what you guys have been advocating.

 

[rbell]

Ron, I have never accused you of "not believing the Bible." Ever.

I'm just asking that we leave that charge out of our posts when addressing fellow brothers and sisters in Christ over differences in interpretation.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ron, I have never accused you of "not believing the Bible." Ever.

I'm just asking that we leave that charge out of our posts when addressing fellow brothers and sisters in Christ over differences in interpretation.

Brother Rbell:

I get a lot of milage saying this to others:

-------------------------------------
I believe the Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that my understanding
of all the Bible is inerrant.

You believe your Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that your understanding
of all your Bible is inerrant.

Surely i have respect enough for my
Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't let your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused with what the Bible said.
Don't let your opinion of what Jesus meant
get confused with what Jesus said.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

rbell,

maybe not directly, but indirectly, you have accused me of not believing the Bible.

In post 16, you addressed a post concerning Revelation 21:8.

You stated that it concerns those who never received Jesus as Lord, not all murderers. I do not beleive that it applies as such. For the list of those who will have their part in the lake of fire. Look at the verse:

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Do you see what I am saying? and unbelieving is different than and murderers. It is two classes of people, and yet, all are unbelievers for they have in the end rejected Christ.

So, in a way, you did indeed accuse me of not believing the Bible.

 

[Gershom]

Besides, the Bible does disagree with what you guys have been advocating.

Rather, my interpretation of the Bible disagrees with what you guys have been advocating.

 

[rbell]

rbell,

maybe not directly, but indirectly, you have accused me of not believing the Bible.

In post 16, you addressed a post concerning Revelation 21:8.

You stated that it concerns those who never received Jesus as Lord, not all murderers. I do not beleive that it applies as such. For the list of those who will have their part in the lake of fire. Look at the verse:


Do you see what I am saying? and unbelieving is different than and murderers. It is two classes of people, and yet, all are unbelievers for they have in the end rejected Christ.

So, in a way, you did indeed accuse me of not believing the Bible.

I am sorry you took it that way...I truly am.

Here is my post (#16, the one in question):

I have yet to see a thread where you don't accuse someone of "denying the word of God." I'm a Bible-believing child of God and that is offensive.

Those mentioned in Revelation are those who have engaged in those sins and never asked Christ to be their Lord. So does that mean if a Christian lies, etc., he is sinning? Of course. Is it an affront to God? Of course. Does one lie send a Christian to hell? Ridiculous.

Read the whole verse. If you apply it the way you see it, then if you ever lie or are fearful, you're going to hell. Of course that's not proper application.

Now quit saying I "deny the Word of God." It is possible to disagree without throwing out those kind of perjoratives. Well, at least, it's possible for me to. We'll see if you're able.

Now...answer my question, take three: If you died today, and there was an unconfessed sin in your life, would you go to hell?

First of all, the post was not even addressed to you (but His Blood Spoke My Name). Secondly, I don't even see how you got "you don't believe the Bible" out of that. I specifically refer to proper application. I was actually admonishing another poster to quit using the "you don't believe the Bible" as a perjorative! I was doing the opposite of what you did (when you specifically accused another Christian of not believing the Bible).

I believe your interpretation on this subject is mistaken. However, I fully believe that you believe the Bible. I don't doubt that. I would request that you offer your brothers in Christ the same attitude.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

How do you get 'some murderers will be cast into the lake...' out of 'all murderers will be cast in the lake...'?

How do you get 'and we know that some murderers have eternal life abiding in them' out of 'and we know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him'?

No, it is not us who are misinterpreting the Scripture.

Paul told the Corinthians in Chapter 6:
'... but such were some of you...' They no longer were all the things Paul mentioned in the previous two verses.

Salvation is not a license to sin, but the picture you are painting is that once one comes to trust in Christ for Salvation, he or she can kill, lie, or do anything they want contrary to the commandments and everything will be hunky-dorey. This is contrary to the Word of God.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

What commandments is John speaking of? The two great commandments...

Matthew 22:37-39 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

If you do not keep His commandments, His Word clearly states that you are a liar and the truth is not in you. If you keep His commandments you will not break the 10 handed down to Moses, for those ten are all wrapped up in the two.

Keeping the ten commandments means one will not kill... not even self.

 

[Lagardo]

Another lie? do you have to do the job of satan accusing the brethren?

I have said over and over we sin. You apparently do not read my posts but with a judgmental view to accuse of that which is not true.

I am not judging or accusing you. I am exposing the problem in what you are putting forth. This is a debate forum. However, if I have crossed the line, I am sorry. "Debate" does not override our Biblical call to love and encourage one another.

You have put forth that the suicidal person had a way out (we agree, 1 Cor. 10:13).

You have put forth that if the person was of Christ, they would hear and follow Him, and take the way out provided.

You have concluded, then, that if a person does not take the way out provided, then they did not hear Him and was not of Christ.

A provided way of escape is not just in the case of suicide, but in any temptation. So it stands to reason that your conclusion applies to anyone who sins. Does it not?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

rbell, true the post was to HBSMN, but indirectly you applied it to sfiC as well. sfiC has stated that is his belief that was posted by HBSMN.

Now, you also said you believe that sfiC believes the Bible, but that he is mistaken. So, in effect you are telling him he does not believe the Bible, for his Bible he believes is not what the Bible you read means.

I amyself do not agree with your belief, as you will see in my last post.

 

[rbell]

rbell, true the post was to HBSMN, but indirectly you applied it to sfiC as well. sfiC has stated that is his belief that was posted by HBSMN.

Now, you also said you believe that sfiC believes the Bible, but that he is mistaken. So, in effect you are telling him he does not believe the Bible, for his Bible he believes is not what the Bible you read means.

I amyself do not agree with your belief, as you will see in my last post.

DITW...

It is possible to disagree with points of Biblical interpretation and both folks passionately believe the Bible.

It is also silly to think that we all are 100.00000000000000% in agreement on all things theological and with regards to Biblical interpretation. There is no way that you and SFIC are in complete and total agreement on all things.

In my opinion, we should be mature enough as Christians to understand that, yet discern when a "non-negotiable" tenet of the faith has been crossed.

Come on...I don't doubt your faithfulness to God's Word. I don't doubt mine either. But since I'm not God, I am sure that there are some things I'm not 100% right on. And I'm sure the same holds true for you.

Now, do I know what those things are I'm wrong about? No...if I did, I would hope I would change those beliefs. But I hope that as I grow and learn, I'm willing to examine those areas that are "less clear" so I can evaluate them in light of the Holy Spirit and Biblical principles, and change them if necessary.

Now...if you have every single point of your theology 100.0000000% right, then you're better than every other poster here (and every other Christian who has ever lived, for that matter).

"For we know in part, and we prophecy in part." (1 Cor. 13)

 

[Diggin in da Word]

rbell,

If the person is mistaken about the biblical interpretation, then they are not believing the Bible, they are believing what they think the Bible means.

 

[rbell]

rbell,

If the person is mistaken about the biblical interpretation, then they are not believing the Bible, they are believing what they think the Bible means.

so can you say with absolute certainty that there is no possibility that you are wrong regarding any Biblical or theological concept?

 

[Lagardo]

Very good post, rbell! :thumbsup:

I notice that many of these threads are about subjects that no one is likely to change their mind on. Its worth debating though, because it can help everyone involved to learn and grow.

However, do we reach a point when all has been challenged, and all has been said, and we are left with arguing for the sake of arguing? :BangHead:

I don't know how often I find myself in these threads reaching this point and then saying something over the line to the one I am arguing with. At the time I am usually proud of a good zinger, but then later realize, "wow, that wasn't Christlike at all!"

I know we call these DEBATE forums, but is there a point where we simply need to agree to disagree?

 

[Claudia_T]

You have put forth that the suicidal person had a way out (we agree, 1 Cor. 10:13).

You have put forth that if the person was of Christ, they would hear and follow Him, and take the way out provided.

You have concluded, then, that if a person does not take the way out provided, then they did not hear Him and was not of Christ.

A provided way of escape is not just in the case of suicide, but in any temptation. So it stands to reason that your conclusion applies to anyone who sins. Does it not?

I agree that it does seem that way... that it would apply to any one who sins.

But then WHEN do you think the verse applies about murderers being in the lake of fire, do you see that as non-Christians?

I apply it to anyone who is a murderer.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

I can be wrong, but the Bible is not.

'Sanctify them through Thy Word, Thy Word is truth.'

What I gather from your posts is that 'some suicides will escape hell'.

What I gather from sfiC is that 'all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire'.

God's Word declares this as well.

Should I say you are correct concerning suicide which is self-murder when the Word clearly states otherwise?

 

[Eric B]

Eric

you are impossible, I cant believe you took those verses from Revelation as some sort of thing I was using to "persecute the suffering"

geeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I was just showing that sometimes God shows someone something they are doing wrong so they can fix it, because He loves them... thats all that I was doing

it seems seriously like you have some sort of a martyr complex towards someone who is suffering. You have no idea whatsoever what I myself have been through.. and am still going through

I have no desire whatever to condemn anyone, but its just impossible to even talk with you if you are going to continue misconstruing everything as someone trying to attack the suffering.

I did not say you were "persecuting" or "attacking" the suffering. Note, that "showing something they are doing wrong so they can fix it" is NOT "all" you and the others are doing, but rather declaring them headed to Hell, based on your belief about particular sins, or with many others, even attitudes!
What I have is not a martyrdom complex, but compassion; which many using these formulaic responses simply do not have. So no, you don't mean to "attack" them, but don't realize that this stuff you're preaching to them, as unwarranted as it is, comes off to them as just that!

Also, forgot from before:

if you are a Christian you can expect lots of bad stuff to happen because God is going to allow you to go through trials. But these trials are supposed to allow your evil nature to come through so that you can realize what needs changing and fix that.

Through the power of Christ of course, etc and so on

Again, I tried to addrress this specifically on that "others may" thread you started; but I guess these discussions took off, and it got swamped.
We do not know that and mistakenly read it into many of these scriptures. It actually is the same basic thing Job's friends told him, and God was very disappointed in that. He ordered Job to make sacrifice for them, showing the grievousness of their response! But this becomes the "comfort" many will give to the suffering, and if they feel they are not receiving it right, or are too down, and whatnot; then here comes the judgment. This often pushes the person firther into despair (just like Job!). It could be the thing that pushes them over the edge! But by blaming the victims, we excuse our own coldness and cruelty!
Bad things happen, because it is a fallen world! This whole "God is doing it for your good" and other forms of pacification has often been used to justify inequities and mistreatment in the world. But the world is fallen, and bad things happen to everyone, not just Christians. While the premise of resisting temptation making us grow is true, all of this still seems to tie these circumstances specifically to special acts (or acts of omission) of God in the life of Christians. This would make one think that non-Christians must get everything they want, and have perfect circumstances, then. After all, not getting what one wants is only a divine test for God's children, not a normal part of life, isn't it? (But then, they will point this out, somewhere down the line, again, confusing the person you had just told that God was doing it for some good purpose).

So instead of us playing judge, and trying to convict them of some possible hidden "rejection of Christ" or status as a "dressed up pig", with the danger of Hell (unless they actually do come out and renounce Christ), we should leave all that to God, and try to find better ways to comfort people.

James 2:15, 16; the very passage [you among some others love to quote] speaking about faith without works being dead; speaks clearly about simply wishing someone "peace" (precisely what people are doing by only citing scriptures on peace and pointing them towards our eternal destiny), and without addressing what he needs in the physical realm. 1 John 3:17, 18 speaks about "shutting up our hearts" to them (what we do when they don't respond the way we think they should).

 

[Claudia_T]

Eric,

Im not trying to be sarcastic but honestly I thought we were debating a theological thing here, not trying to have a class where people wanting to commit suicide were sitting here reading what we say?

How can anyone who believes the way we do about it manage to tell someone nicely that they are going to go to hell if they dont change?

seriously?

I think you are expecting too much of us

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Agree to disagree?

Where is that found in the Word? My Bible says 'Come, let us reason together...'

 

[Claudia_T]

It would be like if we were having a debate about whether or not there was a hell and if you rejected Christ are you going there?

and if you kept saying yes you will go to hell if you reject Christ but I kept telling you that you were being judgmental and people who are very sensitive about being afraid of a God who sends them to hell might read this and just go over the edge if they read what you say.

How in the world could you manage to tell anyone your views?

well thats what you are making me feel like.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

It is good to have compassion, I agree. But compassion includes warning of the penalty for sin.

If you see someone blindly driving down a road and you know the bridge is out just around the corner, don't you think you should try to warn them?

Are you truly showing compassion if you do not warn them?