WHAT ARE THE BASIC PROBLEMS IN LORDSHIP SALVATION?

[Reynolds]

Love God with all your might and love your neighbor as yourself AS THE FATHER PERFECTLY DOES SO. Read Mathew 5:48.

Quote the complete moral law. Don't mislead people into thinking they could fulfil the moral law and thus don't find the absolute necessity of Christ's atonement.

You brought up the "moral law". How about you quote it for us.

 

[HankD]

its a system of works in disguise.

 

[Dave G]

What does it take to receive Jesus as Lord?

The new birth.
See Acts of the Apostles 14:16, Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26.

The preached word.
See James 1:18, Romans 10:8-17.

 

[Noah Hirsch]

Now, if you claim God credits their faith as righteousness only after
coming to a full commitment to Christ, IT IS THE MOST UTTER NONSENSE.

What does one mean by a full commitment to Christ?

 

[Van]

One must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given a new heart in order to believe unto salvation.

Utter false nonsense. Scripture leads the lost to Christ. No one is regenerated before God credits their faith as righteousness and places them into Christ spiritually.

 

[Van]

Don't digress from the OP. If you can't, just keep off this thread.

Sir, my post is on topic. Don't digress from the OP with ad hominems.

There are those who do not believe salvation is based on God alone choosing to credit a lost person's faith as righteousness or not. But assuming the vast majority of believers accept Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24, then the question becomes our understanding of trusting fully in Christ. We know from Matthew 13 that a superficial trust (Soil #2) or trusting in Christ along with trusting in worldly treasures such as relationships (Soil #3) is insufficient faith. As others have said, trusting in Christ as both Savior and Lord is necessary for salvation. Unless a person makes a full commitment to Christ as Lord (or boss and governor) the faith is lacking. Now God knows our hearts and so if our commitment is total, then He credits our faith and places us into Christ spiritually.

OTOH, a group understands scripture differently, saying all a person must do is believe a set of facts about Christ and they are "automatically" "in Christ" and saved eternally, even though they show no external signs of a commitment to Christ. This view is called "Easy Believeism."

So the bottom line is ":Lordship Salvation" simply recognizes that for God to credit our faith as righteousness, we must go "all in" for Christ. It is the correct view even though many of its proponents are Calvinists.

 

[Van]

Now, if you claim God credits their faith as righteousness only after
coming to a full commitment to Christ, IT IS THE MOST UTTER NONSENSE.

Again, you did not support your nonsensical view from scripture. OTOH, I supported the view that less than full commitment does not work from Matthew 13.

 

[Van]

God saves the lost sinner period!

Non germane post, no one said God did not save the lost sinner.

 

[Dave G]

Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith"

Agreed in the bolded.
But here is where I see it "going south"...

There is no such thing as a "faith that saves".
"Saving faith", if meant that one can have a faith that does the saving, is a misnomer.

Faith that accompanies God's work of salvation and gift of eternal life, is what I clearly see the Scriptures teaching.
Believers are not saved by faith.
You will not find that phrase anywhere in the Bible.
They are saved through it ( Ephesians 2:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ).

It may seem like a small point, but it makes all the difference between teaching that man's efforts play a deciding part in God saving someone, and man's efforts being bypassed by a God that does according to His own will and purposes.

God's work in a person is evidenced ( Hebrews 11:1 ) by their faith, it is not determined by their faith.

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny"

To me, this is where the whole thing falls apart:

Do you see where the cart is being put in front of the horse?
It says that God's GIFT ( Romans 6:23 ) of eternal life comes FROM a life lived in obedience and service to Christ.
That salvation is the fruit of actions, not intentions.

It says that the life we live determines our destiny...
Instead of it being a reflection or evidence of our destiny as believers.

That is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church and many other entities teach and preach today.
"Lordship Salvation" teaches that men determine their destiny through their actions, not God's actions irrespective of man's.

This teaching of "sovereign grace" offends quite a few people, Steven.
Especially those who are trying their level best to work their way to Heaven.
It is to these the Lord will say:

" I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

They think that their efforts are what secure the favor and grace of God.

 

[Dave G]

Non germane post, no one said God did not save the lost sinner.

You did, Van, when you stated that God credits a person's faith as righteousness, but then places that person in the body of Christ because of it.

Am I wrong?

 

[Van]

You did, Van, when you stated that God credits a person's faith as righteousness, but then places that person in the body of Christ because of it.

Am I wrong?

Yes, and I did not say"because of "it"." To what does your invented strawman refer? To our faith? God does not place anyone into Christ spiritually because of their efforts. It does not depend on the man that wills or works. Stop misrepresenting my view.
Our faith, if and only if, credited by God as righteousness, is the basis of God placing a person into Christ.

OTOH, you seem to deny God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. 2 Thess. 2:13 You seem to deny God credits our faith as righteousness. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24. You seem to deny that putting our faith in Christ is not works.

 

[Dave G]

Yes, and I did not say"because of "it".

You didn't have to, Van.
You stated it here:

Now God knows our hearts and so if our commitment is total, then He credits our faith and places us into Christ spiritually.

And here:

Our faith, if and only if, credited by God as righteousness, is the basis of God placing a person into Christ.

Again, am I wrong?
Then show me how you are not stating that faith is what places us into the body of Christ...
Instead of God doing that and faith being an indicator, not the determiner.

Please clarify it instead of telling me that I'm "obfuscating" it, Van.

OTOH, you seem to deny God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth.

I do deny that God chooses them because of their faith.

He chooses them for salvation through faith...
That faith is involved, but it does not determine our destiny.

Read post # 109.

 

[canadyjd]

I have always believed the “Lordship Salvation” theology was a method of self-examination not judging others.

The giving of indwelling Holy Spirit is the proof of salvation/right relationship with God for all believers. I don’t believe anyone can look at another person and declare that person saved or unsaved. We cannot see indwelling Holy Spirit.

Perhaps the best we can do is look at our own lives and examine whether we are living a transformed life that appears to be the biblical pattern of those who possess indwelling Holy Spirit.

I don’t know what all who believe LS have written on the subject, but from what I’ve read, it appears to rely on God’s grace for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ as the means of appropriating that salvation and indwelling Holy Spirit as enabling grace for living a transformed life that accompanies salvation.

If there are those who use LS to judge others, then I believe they are wrong to judge. If there are those who use LS to encourage believers to examine their own lives in Christ, then they are standing on firm biblical ground, imho.

And please, Steven_15, quit demanding people to stop posting on the thread.

I’m not an expert on the posting rules of the BB, but I suspect just because you start the OP, doesn’t give you authority to limit who can post on it.

peace to you

 

[Particular]

More utter nonsense, either a believer"s faith is credited as righteousness, and accordingly the believer is placed into Christ spiritually, or they remain unsaved. Once saved, we do undergo progressive sanctification, as we mature in Christ.

Now coming to a full commitment to Christ can be a process, but unless and until God credits their faith as righteousness, they remain completely and totally unsaved, outside of Christ.

Van, your concept of faith is found in the figment of your imagination. We will not agree because I reject your biblically unsupported idea of faith.

 

[Noah Hirsch]

I thin

What does it take to receive Jesus as Lord? Faith alone in His atonement or ceasing from sinning?

Lordship Salvationists deceive themselves into thinking they have ceased from sinning and exhibit a phoney transformation which is based on the moral law and not on grace.

I think we need to distinguish between different versions of Lordship salvation. I do not think everyone who would identity themselves as a Lordship salvationist would believe that one necessarily has to become sinless in order to receive Jesus as Lord. In fact I am unaware of any who would aware such an idea. I am not saying that there are not any who do so, but I do not know of any.

 

[Noah Hirsch]

Utter false nonsense. Scripture leads the lost to Christ. No one is regenerated before God credits their faith as righteousness and places them into Christ spiritually.

We believe unto salvation and so are justified when God regenerates us by His Holy Spirit, giving us a new heart and a new spirit, and effectually drawing us to Jesus Christ, so that we are made willing to embrace and receive Christ by faith as our righteousness and the satisfaction for our sins. No one will believe who is not given a new heart and a new disposition to love God. Repentance and faith are inseparable graces, and are the gifts of God to His elect. God Himself by His Spirit produces repentance and faith in the work of regeneration. Regeneration is not a work of man. It is not something we do. Regeneration is the work of Almighty God by His Holy Spirit raising His elect from spiritual death to spiritual life, giving them a new heart and a new spirit, so that they will repent, believe, and trust in Christ, fleeing from the wrath of God through Him. Regeneration is not a human decision. God In regeneration works upon our wills and hearts. Regeneration is the act of God upon our wills, not our act of willing or making the decision for Christ.

There is no possibility of truly receiving Christ as Savior and substitute without repentance and turning from sin to God by Jesus Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

What is Lordship Salvation?

TCassidy sums up the anti-LS view better than I ever could.

"...We also believe good works are the result of regeneration and will be present in the life of a regenerate person.."


"The 'heart change' which instills 'the golden rule' in his redeemed and brings about faith in Christ must occur BEFORE anything else."

 

[HankD]

I thin


I think we need to distinguish between different versions of Lordship salvation. I do not think everyone who would identity themselves as a Lordship salvationist would believe that one necessarily has to become sinless in order to receive Jesus as Lord. In fact I am unaware of any who would aware such an idea. I am not saying that there are not any who do so, but I do not know of any.

OK if one does not have to be sinless or does not have to become sinless to be saved how much sin is them allowable for one to be saved or to remain saved in a LS venue?

 

[AustinC]

Lordship Salvation is a misnomer.

From my perspective, MacArthur and crew were really just attempting to figure out who is genuinely saved and who is falsely claiming to be saved. The question is: If a person does not live their life with the very real understanding that Jesus is the Sovereign King over all creation and that Jesus is the Head over the church, can that person genuinely be saved?

It is a massive twist of concept to teach that one must choose to make Jesus Lord. That idea is purely a free-will idea that falls in the same camp as those who teach that anyone who says the Sinners Prayer is therefore saved. These ideas are born from a synergist mindset that humans must cooperate in assistance with God in order to be saved. Reading MacArthur's recent books, it seems that he is a monergist, which eliminates the idea that a human plays any part in his/her salvation.

Is the proclaimed Christian walking in step with the Holy Spirit so that it is evident to all that Jesus is Lord of their life? If so, then there is every indication that this person is saved.

That's it. Jesus is Lord.

People who have a problem with this are most likely to be synergists who are wrestling with the degree to which they are in cooperation with God for their own salvation. Every synergist has a different concept as to where they lie on that spectrum. A monergist won't see a problem, because God does all the work in saving them.

 

[Noah Hirsch]

OK if one does not have to be sinless or does not have to become sinless to be saved how much sin is them allowable for one to be saved or to remain saved in a LS venue?

It is less that one has to make it to a certain degree of perfection, more that one who truly believes with such a belief as is saving does not believe with a belief or persuasion that is devoid of repentance. Whatever faith a demon can have cannot be justifying faith.