What did Jesus mean when He said touch me not

[Brother Bob]

You are wrong Marcia;
John saw in Heaven and there was a number before God's throne and they had their hands raised and were singing "Holy Holy art thou oh Lord for thou hast redeemed us with thy blood.:"

Those saints are in Heaven today both soul and bodies and they along with Jesus are the First resurrection with Jesus being the first fruit of those that arose.


1 Corinthians, chapter 15
"20": But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

It says firstfruits in the plural. Their souls had to come back from Heaven and reunite with their bodies. Jesus conquered over death hell and the grave so those bodies could be resurrected.
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What purpose would there be for saints to come out of the graves to live here on earth and don't you know if a bunch of saints had of arose and lived here on earth it would of been a great sign yet nothing is mentioned about it.

 

[canadyjd]

Marcia

I am finding this explaination more compelling as I study it. There is no evidence in scripture that Lazarus lived a normal life and died, again. There is no evidence that the saints that arose lived another life and died, again. If they had, certainly there would have been some record of it in the historical records, like Josephus. As you said before, scripture is silent on those details and you are speculating.

Scripture says their bodies, which had been dead, arose. That is resurrection. Given that the Jewish practice was to allow the flesh to rot, and then carefully collect the bones and place them into a small box, it is hard to image anything other than resurrected/glorified bodies here.

peace to youraise:

 

[Brother Bob]

Marcia;
I'm not denying that Jesus was the first resurrection.

Let us consentrate on what we do agree on that Jesus is the first resurrection and the firstfruits of them that slept.

If indeed Jesus is the first resurrection and we have a part with Jesus and if you have been born again we certainly have a part with Jesus then we do have a part in the first resurrection. All this is according to what we have agreed on.

Now the rest depend on your perspective on the thousand year reign which I have heard many different versions since being on here about the thousand year reign. It says "I saw the souls (of them) which were beheaded for the word of God and they (souls) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years and the rest (bodies) of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was finished. Jesus never once spoke of a thousand years yet to come and I find it hard to believe that if it was to come He would of spoken of it. Satan was loosed for a little season and if satan is not loosed today then we are in for trouble when he is loosed. I am relunctant to get into the thousand year reign because of the many different beliefs on here but I don't believe as they do. Remember that John saws souls under the altar of God for the testimony of which they held and they were given white robes and I think I can prove where the white robes come from (the blood of Christ). This is very deep stuff but as I said, it is for sure whether it is to come or has been it makes no difference whatsoever in our Salvation so I try to stick with that.

 

[Rex77]

Marcia quote
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I think the First Resurrection as it is referred to in Rev. is in the future and refers to the saints who will get their resurrected bodies at that time. It does not deny that Jesus is the first one to be resurrected, but Revelation is clearly talking about the resurrection of saints in the future.
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The first resurrection is in at least 4 parts 3 are future.

1 Christ and the saints that rose with him that entered city.
2 The rapture NT saints.
3 The two witnesses in Rev.
4 OT saints, And the Tribulation saints, at the end of tribulation

 

[Rex77]

Bbob quote
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Jesus never once spoke of a thousand years yet to come and I find it hard to believe that if it was to come He would of spoken of it.
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Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Brother Bob]

His throne is in Heaven, the twelve gates of that city were the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelation, chapter
"21": To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The Father is in Heaven and if Jesus sat down with Him seems to me it would be in Heaven.

You do agree though that Jesus is the First Resurrection.

 

[Rex77]

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You do agree though that Jesus is the First Resurrection.
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Yes though the graves were opened at his death they could not rise till he did.

"In the regeneration" heaven won't need regeneration but the earth will after the tribulation.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well as long as you agree that Jesus is the First Resurrection then that is the point we started with that to have a part in Him is to have a part in the First Resurrection.

I know there are many different minds on the thousand years and I for one believe that a thousand years is as one day and one day as a thousand years which speaks volumes to what I believe about the thousand years. I also stick with the part where it says the souls lived and reign, if you will notice the language it says "souls (of them)". Now if it were talking both soul and body it might of said "I saw the souls that were beheaded but it don't it says I saw the souls of them and they lived and reigned both in past tense.

 

[Brother Bob]

Revelation, chapter 10



"1": And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

"2": And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

"3": And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

"4": And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

"5": And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

"6": And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Was this before we find the Scripture about the thousand year reign and if so how could there be a thousand years when there was no time? How could there even be one day?

 

[Marcia]

Marcia

I am finding this explaination more compelling as I study it. There is no evidence in scripture that Lazarus lived a normal life and died, again. There is no evidence that the saints that arose lived another life and died, again. If they had, certainly there would have been some record of it in the historical records, like Josephus. As you said before, scripture is silent on those details and you are speculating.

peace to youraise:

Well, I am hardly the only one speculating! In fact, the speculating began before I ever posted. I was merely thinking through all this, reading the posts carefully, and then responding as I thought about it. My posts are more like me thinking out loud - I am not saying anything is, just may be.

What do you mean by Lazarus living a normal life? He was raised from the dead, right? Then what happened? We don't know but it's it reasonable to assume he lived at least for awhile? Then he had to die again, right?

 

[Marcia]

Brother Bob,

I've read your posts. It seems you are an amilliennialist, is that right? If so, we are not going to agree on a lot of things about the endtimes as I am definitely a premill. I just finished a study of Daniel and Revelation and I am more premill than ever. :smilewinkgrin: As for the quote about a thousand years as one day, I think in context that is just saying that time means nothing to God. I don't think we are supposed to take that literally so that when a thousand years is mentioned, it means nothing. But that's a different topic for another thread.

I have these questions for you or anyone:
1. Do you think we get our glorified bodies right after death?
2. What about Lazarus and Heb. 9.27?

BTW, Scofield and MacArthur (both premil) agree with you that the saints whose bodies were raised went to heaven.

 

[Brother Bob]

I agree the thousand years a one day probably needs to be discussed on another thread. I guess you could call me a amilliennialist but I believe in the thousand years but believe it is fulfilled and finished at the cross.

No, I believe we have a glorified inward man now but the outward man or body must wait until the resurrection of all the dead. "if the same Spirit be in you that raised Christ from the deed it shall also quicken your mortal body.

Lazarus, the Bible is silent on that for there were others where the soul returned to the body. I know for sure there were certain things that were done for the Glory of God and to assist Jesus setting up the "new and living way" and I think Lazarus was one of them. I have thought on it a lot and discussed it with others but never really come to a precise decision. I like to be able to support things by Scripture and that is one that I would be speculating for sure.

I believe it will be a quick work that Jesus is going to do when He come back and the trump will sound and all that are in the graves will get up and unto them that have done good the resurrection of life and unto them that have done evil the resurrection of damnation. I can't find a thousand years in there.

What do you think about the thousand years and the angel had already set his foot on the sea and the left one on the sand and declared that time shall be no more?

Marcia;
May I ask you a question what kind of background do you have in serving the Lord? If you don't want to answer on here you can pm me. I am impressed by your knowledge and how you will not give in too quick until you study something. I have noticed it all along.

 

[Marcia]

Hello, Brother Bob, thanks for your answers.

Lazarus, the Bible is silent on that for there were others where the soul returned to the body. I know for sure there were certain things that were done for the Glory of God and to assist Jesus setting up the "new and living way" and I think Lazarus was one of them. I have thought on it a lot and discussed it with others but never really come to a precise decision. I like to be able to support things by Scripture and that is one that I would be speculating for sure.

So are you saying you do see a conflict with Lararus being raised from the dead and Heb 9.27, or that you are still thinking on how to reconcile the two?

What do you think about the thousand years and the angel had already set his foot on the sea and the left one on the sand and declared that time shall be no more?

In my NKJV and NASB, it says "there should be delay no longer." So that is not the end of time according to those sources. I would want to look into this and see why it's different, but don't think I have time now.

May I ask you a question what kind of background do you have in serving the Lord? If you don't want to answer on here you can pm me. I am impressed by your knowledge and how you will not give in too quick until you study something. I have noticed it all along.

I don't mind answering at all. I actually was saved late in life (but will not say my age! :smilewinkgrin: ) at the end of 1990 after spending my adult life as a New Ager and professional astrologer (and also involved in eastern religions). All I've learned is from bible studies and sermons at my church (where I've gone since June '92) and from my seminary courses. I'm an off campus student at Southern Evangelical Seminary, Charlotte, NC (co-founded by Dr. Norman Geisler who is now the dean and also teaches). I only have 33 hrs. but have learned a lot.

I have been in full-time ministry since May '98 (and part-time since '94) as a missionary with Fellowship Int'l Mission, an independent mission board in Allentown, PA. My ministry is to educate Christians about the New Age and the occult and to reach out to those involved in these areas with the gospel. I have a book coming out Sept. 1st written for Christians about how the occult is in our culture and how it's packaged to look innocent (SpellBound: The Paranormal Seduction of Today's Kids - Cook is the publisher). See my website for more info on my ministry:
http://cana.userworld.com
My testimony is here:
http://cana.userworld.com/cana_spiritualjourney.html

 

[Mel Miller]

Meaning of Don't Touch Me

Bro Bob,

Quote:
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Now if it were talking both soul and body it might of said "I saw the souls that were beheaded but it don't it says I saw the souls of them and they lived and reigned both in past tense.
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Question:

Are you saying those "beheaded" will NOT be physically resurrected in the First Resurrection but will reign with Christ for 1000 years without being
bodily resurrected at His second coming?

You seem to be saying that souls can "live and reign with Christ without
being physically raised up in the First Resurrection.

Mel www.lastday.net

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes, I am saying the souls lived and reigned with Christ and the rest of the dead (their bodies) lived not again until the thousand years was finished.

It says, I saw the souls of them
He saw a part of a whole if I understand it as written.
If he had of meant both soul and body he would of said:
I saw the souls that were beheaded. Or
I saw those that were beheaded. but
He said I saw the souls (of them)

I think you have to read every word of a Scripture to get the true meaning.

 

[Brother Bob]

So are you saying you do see a conflict with Lararus being raised from the dead and Heb 9.27, or that you are still thinking on how to reconcile the two?

There is a conflict if he lived and died again on earth to which I really don't know. There are times we just do not know and this is one of them.
I don't see a conflict if it was one of those things that was done for the Glory of God like Elias being caught up in to Heaven.

 

[Mel Miller]

Meaning of Touch Me Not

Bro Bob,

Quote:
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Let us consentrate on what we do agree on that Jesus is the first resurrection and the firstfruits of them that slept.
_______________________________________________________

Check the Greek and note that "firstfruit" is a singular noun; not plural.
Even in the case of the 144,000 Jewish firstfruit, the noun is SINGULAR!

I strongly disagree that the term "First Resurrection" is meant to include
all those who have been resurrected. This false concept has allowed you
to somehow get off the topic, for too long already, of why Jesus forbad Mary to cling to Him!

I also believe the term "First Resurrection" is strictly applied only to those
"beheaded" by the Beast and therefore is in contrast with the "rest of the dead" who will remain dead for 1000 years after Christ comes to raise them up. The Martyrs are the subjects of Rev.20:4.

They will "live" again in the First Resurrection because they are clearly the subjects in Rev.20:4 whom John (retroactively) sees as "souls sitting on thrones" to judge the wicked just before Christ comes to raise them up!

The Judgment Scene is found in the 7th Seal and in Dan.7:22.

Mel www.lastday.net

 

[Brother Bob]

What you going to do with this Scripture Mel?
I see know problem with making firstfruit into a plural making it more than one unless the orginal text was singular and not the Greek word.

KJMatt.27

50": Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

"51": And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

"52": And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

"53": And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


What about Jesus, was He the First Resurrection, or don't you believe that either?

As far as the 1000 years I do not believe it is yet to come. I think satan is loosed now.

Check the Greek and note that "firstfruit" is a singular noun; not plural.
Even in the case of the 144,000 Jewish firstfruit, the noun is SINGULAR!

If this is true then it means plural even though it is singular for 144,000 are certainly more than singular.

You call it a false concept but I call it truth.

 

[Mel Miller]

Meaning of Don't Touch Me

Bro Bob,

You seem to me also as being an Amillennialist.

Quote:
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Yes, I am saying the souls lived and reigned with Christ and the rest of the dead (their bodies) lived not again until the thousand years was finished.
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The only way you can deny a physical resurrection for the Martyrs who were "beheaded" by the Beast is to claim the "first resurrection" is NOT
a bodily resurrection!!!!!

John "saw" them as souls BEFORE the "first resurrection" ... so that they
"sat on thrones" by virtue of John's retrospection (flashbacks) ... a very common practice in writing the Book of Revelation!

Mel www.lastday.net

 

[Brother Bob]

Mel;
It says "souls of them". Please tell me why the writer had to go past souls to "of them"?

Also, John saw them as Souls that were under the altar of God which were just the souls and not the bodies. Also the same is true when he saw them live and reign with Christ for a thousand years.