What Do These Passages Teach?

[Dave G]

I think you confuse salvation faith at the point of being saved, with the salvation faith of believers only, after being saved per Philippians 2.

Larry,
Does God decide who to save based on a "set of requirements", or does He save based on His own purposes and grace... given to His people before the world began ( 2 Timothy 1:9 )?
Please see Titus 3:5-7.

But not before they're saved. Jesus was not talking to unbelievers in Rev 3:20 but only to believers. Churches, ekklesia, assembled ones, aren't unbelievers.

I agree.
In Revelation 3:20, Jesus is speaking to believers...His sheep...or at least those who profess to be His.

We do. Romans 3:21-24.

I agree.
Believers do, as that is who I see the entire book of Romans being written to.

Those who DO THE TRUTH first.

I'm sorry, sir, but I disagree.

1 John 1:9; Ezekiel 33:11; which comes first?

According to this, which came first...belief, or God's choosing someone in Christ, before the world began?

"3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." ( Ephesians 1:3-14 ).

Here's what I see...
God first chose someone "in Christ" before the world began.
Then, in time, those who believe ( the ones that were chosen ) are then sealed with the Holy Ghost which is the "earnest" of their downpayment.

 

[37818]

Does Jesus have limited knowledge right now?

Why not? Acts of the Apostles 1:7, ". . . the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." The Son continues not to be the Father.

 

[Dave G]

I'm pretty sure God convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgment, (John 16:8) which is the Holy Spirit's function to both believers and unbelievers and then we respond, not, and then God responds for us.

I agree with the underlined, sir.
I also understand that God does not do the responding for us, as His people, which in other places are called "the elect ( chosen )".

He "calls", and we come to His Son...
Because we are His sheep.

His conviction is the red light and siren that gives us a clue when, as believers, we're not living righteousness by faith and for the unbeliever who can't live righteousness by faith as well per Romans 1.

Again I agree...
To a certain extent.

To me, the Lord only outwardly convicts those that will never believe;
While He inwardly convicts those that He has foreknown and chosen.

Nothing about softening first.

Take a look at Acts of the Apostles 16:14.

That's not what Psalm 51 nor John 16:8 says.

But is it not what Psalms 65:4 says?

 

[Yeshua1]

Why not? Acts of the Apostles 1:7, ". . . the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." The Son continues not to be the Father.

Jesus though now has back fully restored glory, which means no more limitations on Him!

 

[Dave G]

@Larry the Logger :

Larry, one more question before I go...
If you don't mind indulging my curiosity, what do you see these saying?

" according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ).

" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 ).

" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 ).

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." ( John 10:26-28 ).

" as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." ( John 17:2 ).

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )

" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:29-30 ).

 

[37818]

Jesus though now has back fully restored glory, which means no more limitations on Him!

He was always the Son before His incarnation, John 1:2, Mark 13:32. He was always the Creator and the true light, John 1:9-10, even on the cross Hebrews 1:3.

 

[SavedByGrace]

And you think I do not English of Genesis 22:12, ". . . for now I know that thou fearest God, . . ."

so, you are saying, that Jesus Christ, in His per-Incarnate state, as the eternal Almighty God, Who IS YHWH, did not "know" before the time in Genesis 22:12? Then He CANNOT be Almighty God, and is no more than a mere created being! You are ignorant of what the language of the Bible says and is used for. By your own understanding, this means that in Genesis 18, when YHWH says, "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know" (verse 21). That, before Almighty God "went down", to earth, that He did not know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah? REALLY??? As I have said, it is YOU who does NOT understand the teachings of the Holy Bible, nor the Hebrew and Greek languages!

 

[Yeshua1]

He was always the Son before His incarnation, John 1:2, Mark 13:32. He was always the Creator and the true light, John 1:9-10, even on the cross Hebrews 1:3.

He limited Himself while here, and was still fully God, but now has his fully glory restored by the Father, as per John 17!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Why are we discussing Christology here?

 

[Yeshua1]

so, you are saying, that Jesus Christ, in His per-Incarnate state, as the eternal Almighty God, Who IS YHWH, did not "know" before the time in Genesis 22:12? Then He CANNOT be Almighty God, and is no more than a mere created being! You are ignorant of what the language of the Bible says and is used for. By your own understanding, this means that in Genesis 18, when YHWH says, "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know" (verse 21). That, before Almighty God "went down", to earth, that He did not know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah? REALLY??? As I have said, it is YOU who does NOT understand the teachings of the Holy Bible, nor the Hebrew and Greek languages!

God knew what Abraham would decide to do, and he knew that Sodom would be destroyed, as note that Abraham was the one that stopped the number of "good people" required to save the city, not God!

 

[SavedByGrace]

This, according to you, "unbiblical" passage should suffice.
Romans 6:1-23
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old selfwas crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

now go on to chapter 7, and read of Paul's post conversion struggels with sin!

 

[Yeshua1]

now go on to chapter 7, and read of Paul's post conversion struggels with sin!

Yes, but paul would have us read how to have the victory over sin in Chapters 8!

 

[Larry the Logger]

( 2 Timothy 1:9 )

In that verse, what happens first?

Please see Titus 3:5-7.

It proves my point but not if you think believing in Christ as an independent volitional decision on our part is "works of righteousness which we have done."

Please see Ephesians 2:8,9 along with Acts 16:31.

I'm sorry, sir, but I disagree.

Clearly.

According to this, which came first...belief, or God's choosing someone in Christ, before the world began?

"3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." ( Ephesians 1:3-14 ).

Here's what I see...
God first chooses someone "in Christ" before the world began.
Then, in time, those who believe are then sealed with the Holy Ghost which is the "earnest" of their downpayment.

I'm glad you used Ephesians. Look at verse 1. Paul is NOT writing to ALL the believers in this encyclical. He is specifically writing to faithful believers. There's a difference between saved and saved yet faithful to Christ Jesus. Paul makes that distinction right off the bat in verse 1. If you're a believer but you're not faithful, Paul's not talking to you. Faithful believers after they were saved=in Him, in Whom, etc. All the predestinations apply to those believers who choose to be faithful, who choose to be so after they are saved. THEY are the "in Him" ones to whom Paul is speaking. Since the book was originally written first to the Laodiceans, they definitely did not have many faithful in Christ Jesus. That's pretty obvious in Revelation 3:14-20. Saved but not faithful and therefore not In Him.

 

[SavedByGrace]

God knew what Abraham would decide to do, and he knew that Sodom would be destroyed, as note that Abraham was the one that stopped the number of "good people" required to save the city, not God!

some people do not understand, that the language of the Holy Bible is for US, and not God! When, for example we read in Genesis 6, that "God repented" that He had created humans, this is NOT the same meaning of our "repent", as the Hebrew, which literally means, “the LORD heaved with a sigh”, felt really sad for US.

 

[Yeshua1]

some people do not understand, that the language of the Holy Bible is for US, and not God! When, for example we read in Genesis 6, that "God repented" that He had created humans, this is NOT the same meaning of our "repent", as the Hebrew, which literally means, “the LORD heaved with a sigh”, felt really sad for US.

The Lord inspired the Bible down to language that we can understand, as He "dumbed it down: for our benefit!

 

[37818]

so, you are saying, that Jesus Christ, in His per-Incarnate state, as the eternal Almighty God, Who IS YHWH, did not "know" before the time in Genesis 22:12? Then He CANNOT be Almighty God, and is no more than a mere created being! You are ignorant of what the language of the Bible says and is used for. By your own understanding, this means that in Genesis 18, when YHWH says, "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know" (verse 21). That, before Almighty God "went down", to earth, that He did not know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah? REALLY??? As I have said, it is YOU who does NOT understand the teachings of the Holy Bible, nor the Hebrew and Greek languages!

The Son and the Father are the same YHWH but not the same person. Not the same persons. John 1:18, KJV, ASV.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, but paul would have us read how to have the victory over sin in Chapters 8!

but chapter 7 is real and cannot be overlooked or dismissed. What did Paul mean by "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"? (Philippians 2:12) κατεργάζομαι, "to perform, accomplish, achieve"

 

[SavedByGrace]

The Son and the Father are the same YHWH but not the same person. Not the same persons. John 1:18, KJV, ASV.

and where have I said that the Father and Jesus Christ are the same Person?

 

[Yeshua1]

but chapter 7 is real and cannot be overlooked or dismissed. What did Paul mean by "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"? (Philippians 2:12) κατεργάζομαι, "to perform, accomplish, achieve"

He, and the Holy Spirit, wants us to focus on the truth that we cannot do anything apart from the empowering of and by the Holy Spirit Himself!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, but paul would have us read how to have the victory over sin in Chapters 8!

I know that, but again, chapter 7 is there and very real!