Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Im a servant of Christ friend
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What does "The Limited Atonement" actually proclaim? What are the Scriptural Proofs?
- Thread starter Alan Gross
- Start date
Don’t start acting like Silverhair! I already know what it is
arent we all if we are born again… even those who we debate with on here. But what I asked you is if you are connected to the Primitive Baptist community because that’s where I am. It would be nice to know.
That is not what concerns me Silverhair… what concerns me is that you are making this place your own personal echo chamber. Try letting go for a while, their are saints in all churches (and sinners btw) so practice some degree of acceptance because it’s only Christ who is the one that will admonish and correct.
If the Gospel is only for the saved, there is no point preaching. Either people aren't saved and can't respond, or they are already saved and don't need to respond.
Election from eternity is true (Jer. 31:3; Eph. 1:4-5), but salvation and/or justification from eternity is not.
Isaiah 12:1-2. 'On that day you will say, "O LORD, I will praise You; though You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away and You comfort me. Behold God is my salvation, I will not be afraid; For YAH, the LORD, is my strength and song. He has also become my salvation."'
'That day' is the day of Jesus Christ (Isaiah 11:1, 10). God was once angry with His elect, but now, due to our Lord's atonement for sin, He is reconciled to those for whom Christ died (2 Cor. 5:20-21). Therefore He has become the salvation of those to whom He is their strength and song (i.e. those who believe). He was not their salvation before, but He is now.
Salvation is by grace alone (election); by Christ alone (redemption); by faith alone (trust in the Saviour's atonement); according to the Scriptures alone; to the glory of God alone.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Martin Marprelate
Are you kidding me ? Thats the main reason to preach the Gospel, to inform and disciple them that are saved. Who else is the Gospel of ones salvation for but the saved Eph 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
You got it backwards
Are you kidding me ? Thats the main reason to preach the Gospel, to inform and disciple them that are saved. Who else is the Gospel of ones salvation for but the saved Eph 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
You got it backwards
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
If you will notice, I have not questioned whether anyone on this board is saved. What I have questioned and will continue to question is the views we see on here of how, when or why someone is saved.
As I have said before I had not heard of this Calvinist, Arminian disagreement until a few years ago. So in that respect I do not have a dog in that fight.
When I see a post that clearly is in disagreement with scripture then I will point that out. It may ruffle some feathers but that is not my intent.
I know we all come to this board with a bias, mine happens to be from being taught from an early age that the bible is the final authority. Having said that then you can see why I would seek to point out errors in understanding of scripture.
I am not trying to be argumentative but I do have a question for you, how much error should we accept before we point it out?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
BF your logic is flawed to say the least. You make the claim that all the verses I posted {Joh 3:17, Heb 2:9, 1Jn 2:2, 1Ti 2:5-6, Rom 5:6, Rom 5:8, Rom 3:23, Joh 3:16} were just for the elect.
So lets look at just a few of them
Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
So everyone is elect.
1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
The whole world is elect
Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
The ungodly sinners are elect
So who exactly is left out of your elect?
Or perhaps you think that only the elect were ungodly sinners in which case there could be no non-elect as we are told "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Rom 3:23
Think it through, will your correction lead to an argument…do you wish to start an argument and is it ground you want to die on? Note that I’m also guilty of causing a raucous when I’m feeling insulted or when after I’ve mentioned a correction that just is ignored … like your comparing me to a Calvinist when I don’t follow Calvin and dislike many Calvinistic teaching. Conversely I may find some things biblical that they teach but I’m no Calvinist and certainly not a Hyper Calvinist, nor am I an Arminian, Arian, Pelagian, Semi P, etc. Like you I try hard to live a biblical/scriptural life. So do you keep the lords mandate on foot washing ?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
If the forum is a debate forum that should be no problem. It seems idiot that someone would object on a debate forum - to debate.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
As I said my comments are not intended to start an argument but I do feel that it is the correct thing to do when I point out what I see as errors. Would you not do the same?
I have developed a rather thick skin from being on these web sites. I have found that those that disagree with me can have rather sharp tongues and have no problem using the Pelagian or SemiP or even so far as heretic label and some have even questioned my salvation. I stopped worrying about that many moons ago.
Some see the washing of feet as a mandate but the text IMO does not support that view. Christ, when He washed His disciples’ feet, provided an object lesson they would never forget, HUMILITY.
If the Lord would humble Himself as a slave, should they consider themselves any better.
I think that to narrow this passage as teaching foot washing is to miss the message completely.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair
No you using human logic and not biblical/scriptural wisdom, for all those scriptures refer to the elect of God.
No you using human logic and not biblical/scriptural wisdom, for all those scriptures refer to the elect of God.
OMG…I sometimes believe that our Lord simply laughs at this Gordian Knot that humans have made of all this needless competition in the Church. If you contemplate all the needless crap that people do and put out there , In His Name of course as Christs representatives here on earth…. Well it’s just a joke and He knows this is the insanity of human existence. It’s truly hilarious. Would it not be better for people to try to find commonality vs picking each other apart in order to worship our Savior. As stated previously, the Marrow Men made it quite clear that it is all about being “in Christ” that’s important…not about adjusting my belief system to accommodate what you perceive to be the right interpretation of scripture. And honestly, I’m done with it…I’ve had enough with arguing with “the enlightened ones” to last a lifetime. Rather, I rely on, rest on the HS to provide me with my understanding & direction to please God in my life. So if you feel the need to step up, misrepresent me for whatever belief system camp you think I’m supporting go ahead proceed to correct. Note that I can do the same to you, but I’m not going to… it’s a waste of time and energy. Try to share in, rejoice in the knowledge we share the love of God in our lives.
Pease to you
Real Baptists started in Middle ages, not back in book of Acts!
God has provided in the death of Jesus Calvary a certain and sure salvation for Hs own elect, but has chosen Himself to work thru the offering of the Goseal message to save out His on, and per the Great Commission, shall give that good news to all peoples every where, and the Holy Spirit shall make sure all intended to be saved by that good news shall be presented some hw that message.
The Great Commission vey explicit that we as the church are commanded to present Jesus as the Lord as the sin bearer only Savior, and to declare to all sinners, and let the Holy Spirit do His work of conviction, regeneration and salvation thru that message
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
The Marrow men represented common ground. They were dealing with strict Calvinists that had developed the idea that you only preach to the "elect" and that you had to look for signs of grace operating in someone before offering them the message of the gospel. The Marrow men were Calvinists who were still insisting that there was an explicit warrant that everyone who hears the gospel and comes to Christ will find him willing to receive them and save them.
There are some Calvinists who believe that God has nothing to say to the non-elect. Another group says God "offers" salvation and that it should be preached to all but that the offer is not a sincere offer. Another group of Calvinists say that although all of the five points of Calvinism are true, the offer of the gospel is sincere and for everyone. The Marrow men were in that last group.
The charge of rationalization is true but not just to @Silverhair. If the third group above, including the Marrow men, are correct then you have to believe that the Atonement actually accomplished something for certain people (although not all people), and yet all men are truly invited to come to Christ with the promise that they will be saved if they do so. If you believe like the first two groups you directly contradict clear scriptures to the contrary, which can be seen in the posts above in this thread. We will all "rationalize" our decision about where we fall on this.
You are right to say we should look for common ground. For me, it is this. I can accept any form of Calvinism that teaches what is explicitly in scripture - that being that all are promised that if they come to Christ by faith he will receive them and save them and that God wants them to do so. But I also believe that since the work of the Holy Spirit in the Calvinistic system is upon our wills and so intricate with our wills that I don't blame someone who has the perception that they simply "decided" to come to Christ after hearing the gospel. Why would you deride someone or discourage someone who has responded to the work of the Holy Spirit?
Related to the last point is the fact that from what I see, the history of Christian theology, for most people, and for most of time, took for granted that men retained the ability to choose or at least to realize they were in trouble and turn to Christ. As we developed theology, and developed a theology of the completeness of our depravity, the idea came about that we are not able to respond.
Think it was Spurgeon that stated if I could see the yellow stripe God painted on the back of all of His own elect
elect, would just preach to the, but since see that, shall preach and proclaim to sinners
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Did I miss something on this board? Can we not discuss the bible without it becoming an argument?
Example you asked re foot washing which I would conclude you see as a mandate and I see as Christ provided an object lesson of HUMILITY.
My disagreeing with your view seems to have upset you to the point you consider my comment as an attempt to correct you. The context lends itself to being understood either way.
@Earth Wind and Fire do you not support your theological view on this board? Would you expect others not to do the same?
Did Paul not correct error that had crept into the church? I am not saying I have the authority of Paul but I do believe that we are all, as Christians, to point out what we see as error. None of us have a perfect understanding of God's word.
Let me ask you a question, have you ever in your bible study come to realize that the way you had understood a passage was not correct? If so was that because of personal study or through someone questioning your view?
That's expository preaching, which certainly has its place. But it is not the same as, and is no replacement for, Gospel preaching. The Gospel of one's salvation is preaching that tells people how to be saved. 'Repent and be baptized, that your sins may be blotted out.....' 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.'
One of us has got it backwards, but I think you'll find it's you. First the Ephesians heard the word of truth; when they heard it they trusted in Christ, and when they believed they were sealed by the Holy Spirit. It is also true that the Spirit must have opened their hearts to believe (e.g. Acts 16:14), but that is the usual order of salvation.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You have it backwards, Gospel preaching is primarily for the saved, to make disciples of them Matt 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
The Gospel is to feed and teach the redeemed souls Christ redeemed, its not for spiritually dead God hating Christ rejecting sinners,
Like lydia she was one God preapared for the teaching and discipling of the Gospel and baptism