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What is meant by Cals when they ask: do you believe "by our own ability?"

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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
maybe they think that way because they fail to see just how sinful before God we ALL are, and that God plan is perfect, as He does not make any mistakes in His plan of salvation?
Maybe, but I'm not asking anyone to believe differently about our sinfulness and need for a savior. I'm only talking about what perceived glory comes from God condemning men for their unbelief and lack of repentance when He, their creator, blinded and deafened them from birth due to the fall.

Any objective viewer of this matter can see that God's glory is only heightened by the greater His display of love and grace is to all mankind, even if some freely choose to reject it.

as per Apostle paul, who are we to argue with God being the Potter and we being just clay?
If he was making that point to an Arminian I might concede it, but he wasn't. He was making that point to a rebellious Jew, who unlike Paul a fellow Pharisee, was chosen for "common use" rather than a "noble purpose" (like apostleship). Context is king.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Faith comes by hearing the word of God, but not effectually so. Man may hear and rebel against His truth thus making their hearts GROW or BECOME hardened/calloused to it. They aren't born hardened (unable to see, hear, understand and repent), but they will certainly become so if they continue in their rebellion as did many in Israel.

Let Israel be a warning to you Gentiles, do not let your hearts grow hardened. They didn't enter into the Promise Land because of unbelief, so don't make the same mistake they did. (ref. Heb. 3)

Those who have "ears to hear" will hear and have faith produced in them by God through the HS and Gospel, rest would be hearing and seeing but not believing, as it is not for them, but to/for those part of the Kingdom...
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Those who have "ears to hear" will hear and have faith produced in them by God through the HS and Gospel, rest would be hearing and seeing but not believing, as it is not for them, but to/for those part of the Kingdom...

I couldn't agree more.

Now read Acts 28:21-28 and notice the distinction between those who could hear and those who could not.

"...the Gentiles will listen." (v. 28)
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DHK,
No argument here. It is a change of mind toward God. They turned from their former life of rebelling against God to a life of serving God. That is repentance. Notice it is not a turning from sin, per se. It is turning from a lifestyle of rebelling against God. There is a different. They didn't repent "of their sins." There is a big difference

Rebelling against God,and idolatry is sin. Having,making, or participation in idols and idolatry is sin. It is a sin to regard them.
People who are not trusting God are in sin, in thought word and deed.
Repentance does involve turning from all sin. Those you did in the past, those you did today.....and any other future sin that comes your way.
Psalm 51 is still valid for mankind today;
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Checked the link, i am NOT him, i am jesusfan!

And good to see that we both agree biblical repentance IF you hold that in strictest sense NOT us repenting and forsaking all of our personal sins, but that we agree with God that NONE of our 'rightousness" will save us, no religion etc

But that ALL one casn do is turn to jesus and get saved by what He did do on our behalf...

basically, requesting us to turn from self salvation efforts to God salvation in jesus!
Our last exchange was way back in post #59, as far as I can see. So why did you quote my words that were directed to someone else, as if they are directed to you, and then say "you were not that person." I don't have the time to go back and verify if you were the one to whom I said them when you put them in quotes, or if they were directed to somebody else. So don't respond to the post then if it is not directed to you and then claim it is not directed to you.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
DHK,


Rebelling against God,and idolatry is sin. Having,making, or participation in idols and idolatry is sin. It is a sin to regard them.
People who are not trusting God are in sin, in thought word and deed.
Repentance does involve turning from all sin. Those you did in the past, those you did today.....and any other future sin that comes your way.
Psalm 51 is still valid for mankind today;
You are being legalistic. Furthermore you are not using a Biblical definition of repentance. Repentance is not a turning from sins. It is a change of mind with respect to God. When one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ he has changed his attitude. His attitude toward God was rebellious. Now Christ is his Lord, and thus he is his servant and he will be submissive. There is a change of mind in his attitude toward God. That is what the word "metanoia" repentance means--a change of mind.

It is not the reformation that you are speaking of; turning from one sin, and then another, and another. That is reformation, not regeneration. It is not repentance. We cannot repent from all our sins. We must have a change of mind in our attitude toward God. If we don't we have not repented.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Of the spirit means in response to or as a result of the work of the Spirit.
Who told you that? "Of the Spirit" means originating with the Spirit, begotten by the Spirit, spiritual. We are in the world, but not "of the world." Your wresting of the meaning has us "of the world," because we respond to the world.

But even if you disagree, you know what I mean by "of the Spirit," and you should have just given a straight answer without all the revisionism.

The gospel IS a work of the Spirit. Faith comes by hearing.
But you just said faith is a response to the Spirit. So does faith originate with the Spirit or is it in the responder by nature, by virtue of his just being human, waiting to be stimulated by the Gospel message?

In other words:

Is faith a carnal (or natural) aptitude like music and science waiting for the right stimuli, or is it imparted "supernaturally" (for lack of a term you're hard pressed to skew) like the gift of prophecy?

To facilitate this discussion, I'd like you to choose one of the following responses:

Check one:
Faith is a natural aptitude like music and science. Man is born with it and possesses it by nature. He just needs to exercise it in response to the Gospel message.

Faith is a natural aptitude like music and science. Man is born with it and possesses it by nature, but it lays dormant in him until it is stimulated by his cognition of the Gospel message.

Faith is NOT a natural aptitude. Man does not possess it at all until it is imparted to Him in a certain event in a certain moment in time by the Spirit of God.
 
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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Faith is NOT a natural aptitude. Man does not possess it at all until it is imparted to Him in a certain event in a certain moment in time by the Spirit of God.
[/INDENT]

I need you to explain this last one to me before I can respond.

If you affirm that regeneration precedes faith, which I assume you do, then once a man is given a new heart why must God then also "give him faith?" Wouldn't his having a new nature simply make him want to believe in the God who opened his eyes?

My point is that even in your view, faith is a RESPONSE of man to the gospel. You just believe it is following his being effectually regenerated, where as I believe its following his being confronted by a powerful Holy Spirit wrought appeal to be reconciled.

Why wouldn't an appeal of God to be reconciled meant for the entire world be sufficient to warrant a response from His enemies?
 

jbh28

Active Member
Repentance is not a turning from sins.

Yes it is and it's extremely sad that some are trying to promote this teaching today. The Sword of the Lord attempted to promote this(with many in their core groups getting upset with it) even though their founder Rice taught that it was a turning from sin.

You even said this...
They turned from their former life of rebelling against God to a life of serving God. That is repentance.

Their "former life of rebelling against God" is sin. They turn from that(sin) to God.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes it is and it's extremely sad that some are trying to promote this teaching today. The Sword of the Lord attempted to promote this(with many in their core groups getting upset with it) even though their founder Rice taught that it was a turning from sin.

You even said this...


Their "former life of rebelling against God" is sin. They turn from that(sin) to God.

Yes...:thumbsup::thumbsup: metenoia is a change of mind.....a mind that was bound in sin and rebellion, and that desired sin and uncleaness.

It is not being legalistic to say that christians are now law keepers, instead of law breakers. The whole teaching of mortifying sin and godly sorrow over sin is a constant in the life of the christian.

Furthermore you are not using a Biblical definition of repentance. Repentance is not a turning from sins. It is a change of mind with respect to God

13He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

3When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.

4For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.

5I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

6For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Profiting From The Word
by A.W. Pink

1. The Scriptures and Sin

2. An individual is spiritually profited when the Word makes him sorrow over sin. Of the stony-ground hearer it is said that he "heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself" (Matt. 13:20,21); but of those who were convicted under the preaching of Peter it is recorded that they were pricked in their heart (Acts 2:37). The same contrast exists today. Many will listen to a flowery sermon, or an address on "dispensational truth" that displays oratorical powers or exhibits the intellectual skill of the speaker, but which, usually, contains no searching application to the conscience. It is received with approbation, but no one is humbled before God or brought into a closer walk with Him through it. But let a faithful servant of the Lord (who by grace is not seeking to acquire a reputation for his "brilliance") bring the teaching of Scripture to bear upon character and conduct, exposing the sad failures of even the best of God’s people, and, though the crowd will despise the messenger, the truly regenerate will be thankful for the message which causes them to mourn before God and cry, "Oh, wretched man that I am." So it is in the private reading of the Word. It is when the Holy Spirit applies it in such a way that I am made to see and feel my inward corruption’s that I am really blessed.

What a word is that in Jeremiah 31:19: "After that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded." Do you, my reader, know anything of such an experience? Does your study of the Word produce a broken heart and lead to a humbling of yourself before God? Does it convict you of your sins in such a way that you are brought to daily repentance before Him? The paschal lamb had to be eaten with "bitter herbs" (Ex. 12:8); so as we really feed on the Word, the Holy Spirit makes it "bitter" to us before it becomes sweet to our taste. Note the order in Revelation 10:9, "And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey." This is ever the experimental order: there must be mourning before comfort (Matt. 5:4); humbling before exalting (1 Pet. 5:6).

3. An individual is spiritually profited when the Word leads to confession of sin. The Scriptures are profitable for "reproof" (2 Tim. 3:16), and an honest soul will acknowledge its faults. Of the carnal it is said, "For every one that loveth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved" (John 3:20). "God be merciful to me a sinner" is the cry of a renewed heart, and every time we are quickened by the Word (Ps. 119) there is a fresh revealing to us and a fresh owning by us of our transgressions before God. "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy" (Prov. 28:13). There can be no spiritual prosperity or fruitfulness (Ps. 1:3) while we conceal within our breasts our guilty secrets; only as they are freely owned before God, and that in detail, shall we enjoy His mercy.

There is no real peace for the conscience and no rest for the heart while we bury the burden of unconfessed sin. Relief comes when it is fully unbosomed to God. Mark well the experience of David, "When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer" (Ps. 33:3,4). Is this figurative but forcible language unintelligible unto you? Or does your own spiritual history explain it? There is many a verse of Scripture which no commentary save that of personal experience can satisfactorily interpret. Blessed indeed is the immediate sequel here: "I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin" (Ps. 32:5).

4. An individual is spiritually profited when the Word produces in him a deeper hatred of sin. "Ye that love the Lord, hate evil" (Ps. 97: 10). "We cannot love God without hating that which He hates. We are not only to avoid evil, and refuse to continue in it, but we must be up in arms against it, and bear towards it a hearty indignation" (C. H. Spurgeon). One of the surest tests to apply to the professed conversion is the heart’s attitude towards sin. Where the principle of holiness has been planted, there will necessarily be a loathing of all that is unholy. If our hatred of evil be genuine, we are thankful when the Word reproves even the evil which we suspected not.

This was the experience of David: "Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way" (Ps. 119:128). Observe well, it is not merely "I abstain from," but "I hate"; not only "some" or "many," but "every false way"; and not only "every evil," but "every false way." "Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right, and I hate every false way" (Ps. 119:128). But it is the very opposite with the wicked: "Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee" (Ps. 50:17). In Proverbs 8:13, we read, "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil," and this godly fear comes through reading the Word: see Deuteronomy 17:18, 19. Rightly has it been said, "Till sin be hated, it cannot be mortified; you will never cry against it, as the Jews did against Christ, Crucify it, Crucify it, till sin be really abhorred as He was" (Edward Reyner, 1635).

5. An individual is spiritually profited when the Word causes a forsaking of sin. "Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity" (2 Tim. 2: 19). The more the Word is read with the definite object of discovering what is pleasing and what is displeasing to the Lord, the more will His will become known; and if our hearts are right with Him the more will our ways be conformed thereto. There will be a "walking in the truth" (3 John 4). At the close of 2 Corinthians 6 some precious promises are given to those who separate themselves from unbelievers. Observe, there, the application which the Holy Spirit makes of them. He does not say, "Having therefore these promises, be comforted and become complacent thereby," but "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit" (2 Cor. 7:1).

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). Here is another important rule by which we should frequently test ourselves: Is the reading and studying of God’s Word producing a purging of my ways? Of old the question was asked, "Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way?" and the Divine answer is "by taking heed thereto according to thy word." Yes, not simply by reading, believing, or memorizing it, but by the personal application of the Word to our "way." It is by taking heed to such exhortations as "Flee fornication" (1 Cor. 6:18), "Flee from idolatry" (1 Cor. 10:14). "Flee these things"—a covetous love for money (1 Tim. 6:11), "Flee also youthful lusts" (2 Tim. 2:22), that the Christian is brought into practical separation from evil; for sin has not only to be confessed but "forsaken" (Prov. 28: 13).
[/QUOTE]
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
I need you to explain this last one to me before I can respond.

If you affirm that regeneration precedes faith, which I assume you do, then once a man is given a new heart why must God then also "give him faith?" Wouldn't his having a new nature simply make him want to believe in the God who opened his eyes?

My point is that even in your view, faith is a RESPONSE of man to the gospel. You just believe it is following his being effectually regenerated, where as I believe its following his being confronted by a powerful Holy Spirit wrought appeal to be reconciled.

Why wouldn't an appeal of God to be reconciled meant for the entire world be sufficient to warrant a response from His enemies?

You have no idea what you believe. That's why you can't give a straight answer. Your only recourse is an attempt to muddy the waters and redefine terms.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Our last exchange was way back in post #59, as far as I can see. So why did you quote my words that were directed to someone else, as if they are directed to you, and then say "you were not that person." I don't have the time to go back and verify if you were the one to whom I said them when you put them in quotes, or if they were directed to somebody else. So don't respond to the post then if it is not directed to you and then claim it is not directed to you.

Why so testy on this? i was just showing you that you had mistaken me for another poster...

I have always tried to be charitable to you and other posters here, why all the Agnst here?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Maybe, but I'm not asking anyone to believe differently about our sinfulness and need for a savior. I'm only talking about what perceived glory comes from God condemning men for their unbelief and lack of repentance when He, their creator, blinded and deafened them from birth due to the fall.

lets not blame God for our spiritual state/condition, it was due FULLY to Sin of Adam!
being Holy, God MUST judge mankingd in the lost spiritual condtion find themselves in, but the GLORY will be when God displays all of those saved by His grace for eternity

We who are children of wrath and of the Kingdom of satan being brought into His Kingdom by act of His mercy and grace!

Only way to walk around this part of God being "harsh/bad" in choosing to charge man as being guilty in adam is to do some kind of Universalism! That He would charge all guilty due to Adam, and Than save all by death of Christ...



Any objective viewer of this matter can see that God's glory is only heightened by the greater His display of love and grace is to all mankind, even if some freely choose to reject it.

If he was making that point to an Arminian I might concede it, but he wasn't. He was making that point to a rebellious Jew, who unlike Paul a fellow Pharisee, was chosen for "common use" rather than a "noble purpose" (like apostleship). Context is king.

Actually, Paul addressing those who saved from those who are not....
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
You have no idea what you believe. That's why you can't give a straight answer. Your only recourse is an attempt to muddy the waters and redefine terms.

You caught me. I'm an idiot.

Feel better about yourself now?
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Adam Clarke, someone else who must be an idiot because he didn't agree with Aaron, says it this way:

Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man's own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him; the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself: nor does he believe necessarily or impulsively when he has that power; the power to believe may be present long before it is exercised, else, why the solemn warnings with which we meet everywhere in the word of God, and threatenings against those who do not believe? Is not this a proof that such persons have the power, but do not use it? They believe not, and therefore are not established. This, therefore, is the true state of the case; God gives the power; man uses the power thus given, and brings glory to God: without the power no man can believe; with it, any man may.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
You caught me. I'm an idiot.

Feel better about yourself now?
Then just answer the question. DHK could give a straight answer. Why can't you? He said men possess faith by nature. Agree or disagree, you know what he thinks.

Is faith a natural part of man, like music and science, or is it supernaturally imparted to a man by the Spirit of God?

25 words or less, please.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Then just answer the question. DHK could give a straight answer. Why can't you? He said men possess faith by nature. Agree or disagree, you know what he thinks.

Is faith a natural part of man, like music and science, or is it supernaturally imparted to a man by the Spirit of God?

25 words or less, please.

Don't Both of them hold that the Gospel has the power to "ignit" saving faith within people? That it is intrinsic within all humans, and Gospel brings it to life and than we decide yay/nay on Jesus?
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Then just answer the question. DHK could give a straight answer. Why can't you? He said men possess faith by nature. Agree or disagree, you know what he thinks.

Is faith a natural part of man, like music and science, or is it supernaturally imparted to a man by the Spirit of God?

25 words or less, please.

I say that faith (belief, the desire to seek (fellowship)with God) is indeed part of the original design of humankind. Music and science (mathematics) are just a consequence of intellectual growth, stimulation, and "need". It was supernaturally imposed by God from the very beginning.

oops, sorry I have a difficulty with counting. ;)
 
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