What is the role of women in the Church?

[HankD]

What is the biblical greek wording used by the inspired writers, and in contex/syntex/grammer by a NT Greek lexicon...

What did it mean?

perhaps JUST as important...

Where was there ANY change in the NT as reagards to allowing women to serve in pastoral/Elders positions?

IF was JSUT a transistional/culturally mandated position in scriptures...

WHAT verse grants us means to alter/change it today?

Usurp authority: Gk. authentein

I can only find it in 1 Timothy 2:12 as an infinitive (or any other form or tense).

Most Lexicons define it as "to domineer" or "to hold authority over".

It's not in Kittel's, apparently a borrowed word from Sanscrit?
effendi - master.

But from what I can find, it appears to have the nuance of "overruling" a pronouncement or doctrinal definition, or more like - offering a second opinion.

Not allowed for women in church. One commentary I read (years ago) said that Pagan women were accustomed to challenging priestesses in the female dominated temples from within the congregation and this NT church edict for silence was necessary in the gentile churches to keep things from becoming a shouting match among the newly converted women.

But Paul goes on and gives this reason:

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

This obviously doesn't fit well with 21st century western society being what the world would call totally politically incorrect.

Admitedly its not much but there it is FWIW.

HankD

 

[DaChaser1]

Usurp authority: Gk. authentein

I can only find it in 1 Timothy 2:12 as an infinitive (or any other form or tense).

Most Lexicons define it as "to domineer" or "to hold authority over".

It's not in Kittel's, apparently a borrowed word from Sanscrit?
effendi - master.

But from what I can find, it appears to have the nuance of "overruling" a pronouncement or doctrinal definition, or more like - offering a second opinion.

Not allowed for women in church. One commentary I read (years ago) said that Pagan women were accustomed to challenging priestesses in the female dominated temples from within the congregation and this NT church edict for silence was necessary in the gentile churches to keep things from becoming a shouting match among the newly converted women.

But Paul goes on and gives this reason:

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

This obviously doesn't fit well with 21st century western society being what the world would call totally politically incorrect.

Admitedly its not much but there it is FWIW.

HankD

think that the admonition by paul to have Women keep quiet address the cultural issues of both jewish culture/pagan ones, but the issue concerning women having positions of ultimate spiritual authority in the Church is a timelss doctrine, as the trinity themselves model this for us, both headship and subordination!

 

[HankD]

think that the admonition by paul to have Women keep quiet address the cultural issues of both jewish culture/pagan ones, but the issue concerning women having positions of ultimate spiritual authority in the Church is a timelss doctrine, as the trinity themselves model this for us, both headship and subordination!

I agree.

But I don't believe it means absolute silence or that women can't have a teaching ministry to other women and children and/or positions of subordination to the pastor and deacons/elders.

HankD

 

[Jerome]

the issue concerning women having positions of ultimate spiritual authority in the Church is a timelss doctrine

Huh?

Who is claiming for women positions of ultimate spiritual authority in the Church?

 

[Jerome]

Yes, and I can name the many women in my church who are wonderful servant leaders as well. But were any of these women pastors?

Trust me John Yates was not viewing Scripture with your church's 'ways' in mind.

Yates, a Council Member of the Gospel Coalition alongside Albert Mohler, Mark Dever, etc., finds:

—that God always seemed to raise up women in the places where Paul started churches, strong women who shared with Paul in leadership

—that in Rome, there were so many women who were in leadership there with the men

—that Andronicus and his wife, Junias—they were so gifted in church planning and in leadership that we sort of refer to both of them as apostles together

—that it was clear from the beginning that the Lord did intend women and men both to teach, to lead, to organize, to minister together

More from Yates's sermon:

Many churches have found that having an ordained woman as one of their pastors has strengthened the whole pastoral team greatly. To some, it would feel uncomfortable to have a woman preach or stand at the Holy Table. To others, it would be rather comforting. Listen, a person's gender is not as important as their wisdom and their maturity and their gifts when it comes to ministry.

You can see here who preaches at his church:

http://www.thefallschurch.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=181316&id1=-2

Would you march out of this—a Gospel Coalition church—too?

 

[annsni]

Trust me John Yates was not viewing Scripture with your church's 'ways' in mind.

Yates, a Council Member of the Gospel Coalition alongside Albert Mohler, Mark Dever, etc., finds:

—that God always seemed to raise up women in the places where Paul started churches, strong women who shared with Paul in leadership

—that in Rome, there were so many women who were in leadership there with the men

—that Andronicus and his wife, Junias—they were so gifted in church planning and in leadership that we sort of refer to both of them as apostles together

—that it was clear from the beginning that the Lord did intend women and men both to teach, to lead, to organize, to minister together

More from Yate's sermon:



You can see here who preaches at his church:

http://www.thefallschurch.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=181316&id1=-2

Would you march out of this—a Gospel Coalition church—too?

I would if there were a woman pastor in the pulpit - absolutely.

Look, I minister in partnership with my husband. But I am not a pastor. We are talking about two different things. I fully disagree with this pastor about women pastors as I'm sure do Mark Dever and Al Mohler. Just because they are all on the Gospel Coalition together doesn't mean that they 100% agree with every single little bit of doctrine. I know for a fact that Mohler and Dever do not agree with women in the pastorate. I agree with them.

 

[gb93433]

What is the biblical greek wording used by the inspired writers, and in contex/syntex/grammer by a NT Greek lexicon...

The word that is used is not the issue. The issue is much like using a 1611 dictionary to define the word gay as it often used in society today. There are lexicons used in the works that the early church fathers wrote. There are lexicons used for the works of philosophers. There are lexicons for classical Greek. There are lexicons used for NT work. One needs to use the right lexicon for the particular work that is being examined.

Words change meaning over time. If one takes a lokk at epsikopos the word is non-existent until the latter part of the NY. If one examines the word presbuteros it goes from the OT and on into the NT. If one examines the word for synagogue he will find Jewish synagogues and Christian synagogues. If one examines the word for church it is only used in the NT.

 

[DaChaser1]

The word that is used is not the issue. The issue is much like using a 1611 dictionary to define the word gay as it often used in society today. There are lexicons used in the works that the early church fathers wrote. There are lexicons used for the works of philosophers. There are lexicons for classical Greek. There are lexicons used for NT work. One needs to use the right lexicon for the particular work that is being examined.

Words change meaning over time. If one takes a lokk at epsikopos the word is non-existent until the latter part of the NY. If one examines the word presbuteros it goes from the OT and on into the NT. If one examines the word for synagogue he will find Jewish synagogues and Christian synagogues. If one examines the word for church it is only used in the NT.

what we need to determine is WHAT the Term/word meant at the time was wriiten in the Bible, NOT what meanings might have become vested in the words later on!

The Holy Spirit inspired and used comtemporary meanings tothe terms, not what we see additional to it later on!

 

[DaChaser1]

Huh?

Who is claiming for women positions of ultimate spiritual authority in the Church?

Those here advocating women to be ordained pastors!

 

[DaChaser1]

I agree.

But I don't believe it means absolute silence or that women can't have a teaching ministry to other women and children and/or positions of subordination to the pastor and deacons/elders.

HankD

ladies in church can teach in childrens church, ministry in women group, among youth staff etc, deaconess...

Just NOT in position of leadership aspastors/Elders

 

[Michael Wrenn]

ladies in church can teach in childrens church, ministry in women group, among youth staff etc, deaconess...

Just NOT in position of leadership aspastors/Elders

According to DaChaser 5:33, written in the context of 21st century patriarchalism. Not according to the NT in context.

 

[nodak]

Actually, those I know who advocate for the ordination of women do not see the pastor as being in authority over the church, but rather as servants of the church.

They are people that see Christ, and Christ alone, as the head of the church. They see all members equal in the church.

They cite the familiar passages where Jesus Himself refused to kick Mary out of "seminary" and back to the kitchen, where He sent women first with news of the resurrection, and then on through the NT where women are mentioned as coworkers.

Somehow those passages have to be reconciled with Paul's "I suffer not a woman". What they find is that while women are indeed forbidden from a certain way of speaking or ministering--no wresting power out of the hands of men, claiming to have been first in creation, or speaking with authority much as we use the term "ex cathedra" today, SO ARE MEN.

God spoke His final Word in Jesus of which the NT is a record or witness. Christ is head of His church and someday everything will be under His authority. Those who want to be greatest must be the lowliest servants of all.

But today we still have the curse, men still want to dominate and rule, and time marches on. Some would walk out of a church if a woman preached. I think more today would walk out if she isn't free to do so.

There are some good articles on authority vs legalism on Wade Burleson's blog. There is an excellent one on authority today over at the Wartburg Watch.

 

[Jerome]

Yes.

JesusFan, it is not an 'ordained pastor' that has 'ultimate spiritual authority':

Col. 1:18
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

JesusFan, FYI the 'He' in that verse is not referring to a church's 'ordained pastor'.

No one is advocating having women as the church's 'ultimate spiritual authority'. The question is, why are you exalting men to His position?

W. B. Johnson (first president of the SBC),
The Gospel Developed Through the Government and Order of the Churches of Jesus Christ (1846):

"The government, then, of the first churches was democratical, purely so, as far as the application of the laws of Christ is considered, in the exercise of a popular vote by the members.
. . . .
The form of the government then, appointed for the churches, is the democratical, independent form, on the principle stated above. But these terms do not convey the whole truth on the subject; for Christ is the King in Zion, the Head of the whole body of his people.
. . . .
The imperative duty of each church, is to ascertain her Lord’s will, and implicitly to obey it. "If ye love me keep my commandments." Now where the word of the king is, there is power. The element of monarchy, then, enters into the government of the church of Christ; and I know no single term that will better express the true character of this government, than Christocracy—a government of which Christ is the Head, and in which his power is manifested in perfect accordance of the freedom of his people."

 

[DaChaser1]

Yes.

JesusFan, it is not an 'ordained pastor' that has 'ultimate spiritual authority':

Col. 1:18
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

JesusFan, FYI the 'He' in that verse is not referring to a church's 'ordained pastor'.

No one is advocating having women as the church's 'ultimate spiritual authority'. The question is, why are you exalting men to His position?

W. B. Johnson (first president of the SBC),
The Gospel Developed Through the Government and Order of the Churches of Jesus Christ (1846):

"The government, then, of the first churches was democratical, purely so, as far as the application of the laws of Christ is considered, in the exercise of a popular vote by the members.
. . . .
The form of the government then, appointed for the churches, is the democratical, independent form, on the principle stated above. But these terms do not convey the whole truth on the subject; for Christ is the King in Zion, the Head of the whole body of his people.
. . . .
The imperative duty of each church, is to ascertain her Lord’s will, and implicitly to obey it. "If ye love me keep my commandments." Now where the word of the king is, there is power. The element of monarchy, then, enters into the government of the church of Christ; and I know no single term that will better express the true character of this government, than Christocracy—a government of which Christ is the Head, and in which his power is manifested in perfect accordance of the freedom of his people."

You are correct that Jesus is the head over His church, but also true that pastors as His local shepherds to their flock...

THOSE positions of pastors/elders are NOT open to women as per the Bible!

 

[revmwc]

Women have many roles in the church, teacher of Women, teachers of Children, music, visitation, all types of roles. The only role scripture forbids them having is that of teaching men which includes preaching (1 Timothy 2:12). Women cannot fill the position of a deacon. Paul again made it clear that a deacon would be a man as being the husband of one wife and that his wife must conduct herself in a certain manner (1 Timothy 3:11 & 12). Women are the greatest asset a church can have. Prayer warrior, ministry support, visitation and working with the youth just to name a few.

 

[nodak]

Somebody better tell Phoebe she wasn't a deacon.

Or else tell the men they were really servants.

Why no consistency in translation when there was consistency in the Greek?

 

[mandym]

Somebody better tell Phoebe she wasn't a deacon.

Or else tell the men they were really servants.

Why no consistency in translation when there was consistency in the Greek?

So it is your position that every single time that word is used it must be used in the same context? And by the way they were really servants.

 

[revmwc]

Somebody better tell Phoebe she wasn't a deacon.

Or else tell the men they were really servants.

Why no consistency in translation when there was consistency in the Greek?

Deacons are servants, the first seven appointed were appointed to serve tables.

 

[jaigner]

You are correct that Jesus is the head over His church, but also true that pastors as His local shepherds to their flock...

THOSE positions of pastors/elders are NOT open to women as per the Bible!

Corrected for readability:

You are correct that Jesus is the head over his church, but it is also true that pastors as his local shepherds.

The positions of pastor and elder are not open to women according to the Bible!

I've never read anything you've written on this subject that has actually given us an interpretation. You're just spouting opinions.

 

[Jerome]

Contrast these reasoned remarks from Dr. Bob:thumbs:

Phoebe (a woman in the church at Cenchrea, neighbor to Corinth) is called by the MASCULINE TITLE "deacon" (not simply as a feminine form of the word, which would be a female servant)

Phoebe was a deacon. Even though I'm an historic ifb'er and have only male deacons, I can't change Romans 16.

It is the definite masculine word referring to the OFFICE.