What is Total Depravity, part deux?

[TCassidy]

Paul told the Philippian Jailer, "Believe"--Verb;imperative--"And then you shall be saved."

Exactly. Regeneration results in our believing which results in our positional salvation, progressive salvation, and eventual permanent salvation, or glorification.

You seem to think he said, "If you find yourself believing then you can be assured that you have been saved."

Once again you engage in an untrue personal attack. I know exactly what Paul said. "He said Believe and you will be saved." He did not say "Believe, even though you are an unbeliever, and you will bring about your own new birth, just as you brought about your own physical birth."

Charles Wesley, the brother of John Wesley, co-founder of Methodism, got it exactly right in his great old hymn of the faith, "And Can it Be."

Verse 3

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quick’ning ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

Note the order.

1. Bound in sin.
2. The quickening ray of light. (Quickening is an old English way of saying "make alive" or "born again" or "regenerated.)
3. He woke.
4. He saw the light.
5. His chains fell off, he was no longer bound in sin and death.
6. His heart was free.
7. He followed Jesus.

Note he was still asleep when God's eye diffused that quickening ray of light.

Even in the bible, Peter was asleep when his deliverance came to him. The Angel had to tap him with his toe to wake him up. Acts 12 is a beautiful picture of our salvation.

Acts 12:6 The same night when Herod was about to bring him out, Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains. Guards in front of the door kept the prison.
Act 12:7 And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him, and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side, and woke him up, saying, “Stand up quickly!” His chains fell off from his hands.

 

[TCassidy]

You are looking at them through the lens of calvinism. Set aside your presuppositions for on conversation.

You are looking at them through the lens of semi-pelagianism. Set aside your presuppositions for on conversation.

 

[TCassidy]

The moment he believes he becomes a believer.

Yes. An unbeliever believes. Oxymoron.

 

[JonShaff]

Yes. An unbeliever believes. Oxymoron.

After that he is no longer an unbeliever. I'm not sure why you are being difficult here. Are you doing that on purpose?

 

[JonShaff]

You are looking at them through the lens of semi-pelagianism. Set aside your presuppositions for on conversation.

I can honestly say, i'm doing my best to look at Scripture without any preunderstandings or presuppositions.

 

[JonShaff]

Even in the bible, Peter was asleep when his deliverance came to him. The Angel had to tap him with his toe to wake him up. Acts 12 is a beautiful picture of our salvation.

Eisegesis. Your application is unwarranted. Are you suggesting we just allegorize passages of Scripture because we think they point to our understanding of theology?

 

[TCassidy]

I can honestly say, i'm doing my best to look at Scripture without any preunderstandings or presuppositions.

So are we.

 

[JonShaff]

Once again you engage in an untrue personal attack. I know exactly what Paul said. "He said Believe and you will be saved." He did not say "Believe, even though you are an unbeliever, and you will bring about your own new birth, just as you brought about your own physical birth."

How is that a personal attack? i'm just explaining what we'd have to conclude if i believed the way you do.

Secondly, People who do not believe something can start believing what they previously did not. i'm not sure why that is such a difficult thing to understand? When someone who does not believe Christ rose from the dead for the forgiveness of their sin, believes, he then becomes a believer. He's no longer and unbeliever. Not hard.

 

[TCassidy]

I'm not sure why you are being difficult here.

I am trying to show you how preposterous it is to think an unbeliever, who hates God, and is incapable of faith can somehow whip up a bunch of faith all on his own.

Are you doing that on purpose?

Yes. I am trying to get you to see that an unbeliever remains an unbeliever until God changes his destiny.

 

[JonShaff]

I am trying to show you how preposterous it is to think an unbeliever, who hates God, and is incapable of faith can somehow whip up a bunch of faith all on his own.

You are missing a key factor--the Preached Gospel is the objective external factor that can bring about belief.

 

[TCassidy]

How is that a personal attack?

You said I thought Paul said some I do not believe he said and never stated I believe he said that.

i'm just explaining what we'd have to conclude if i believed the way you do.

No, you accused me of thinking Paul said something I don't think he said.

People who do not believe something can start believing what they previously did not. i'm not sure why that is such a difficult thing to understand?

We are not talking about believing a news paper article. We are talking about the faith in Christ as Lord and Savior that changes our destine. HUGE difference.

 

[TCassidy]

Eisegesis. Your application is unwarranted. Are you suggesting we just allegorize passages of Scripture because we think they point to our understanding of theology?

I didn't allegorize anything. The passage says what it says.

 

[JonShaff]

Yes. I am trying to get you to see that an unbeliever remains an unbeliever until God changes his destiny.

Right,

Romans 3:22
22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

 

[JonShaff]

We are not talking about believing a news paper article. We are talking about the faith in Christ as Lord and Savior that changes our destine. HUGE difference.

Ah, so you think "believe" in the Bible is some other word that really does not mean believe? My definition of believe is--yielding oneself to the truth presented and affirming it is True.

What is your definition of believe?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Once again you engage in an untrue personal attack.

Am I the only one who sees no personal attacks here whatsoever? I see disagreement, statements being taken out of context, and the fruitless attempt at a productive debate. Does he misrepresent your position? Perhaps. Do you misrepresent his position? Indeed. That's not a personal attack; that is a misconception or an erroneous conclusion at best.

If this constitutes a personal attack, then you, my friend, are the proverbial "pot calling the kettle black."

 

[Rockson]

@JonShaff posted this and it was directed at @Yeshua1...

Lost ppl are spiritually dead and have no faith in God. The very moment someone has faith, they're saved...not before or sometime afterwards, but they very moment they have faith, they are justified, saved, declared righteous before God.

I'm sorry folks but that's never the way it is in scripture. Let's look at Acts 14:6-10

They were ware of it, and fled unto Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and unto the region that lieth round about:And there they preached the gospel.And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. Acts 14:6-10

This verse is really loaded with good things it's hard not just to highlight it all. Notice,

1) the Gospel was preached

2) This man heard Paul speak

3) Paul perceived the man had faith to be healed

But hold it now notice something. Just because he had faith to be healed didn't make him healed. The man had to take it to the next step and act on his faith. Notice how Paul made him do that. When Paul perceived he had faith to be healed (sózó) and to be is future tense and this word healed here is the same greek word for saved....look what Paul did to get him to act on his faith,

Paul said with a LOUD VOICE, Stand upright on your feet! And he leaped and walked. Acts 14: 10

It's no different then the salvation of the spirit....just because one has faith to be saved (sózó) DOES NOT MEAN they're saved. They've got to act on their faith and that is by the action (verb) of believing. And how does one act on their faith and believe for salvation.....for with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:10

When you choose to say you identity with what Jesus did on the cross for you Heaven rejoices. That's the equivalent of standing upright on your feet and walking. So it's FAITH...but having faith doesn't mean you're saved. One must mix it with the action that only man can do...believe and choose to identify with Christ....confession is made ==>unto salvation.

 

[TCassidy]

Right,

Romans 3:22
22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Exactly. Righteousness is the result of our faith in Christ. And that faith is the result of God giving us a New Beginning.

Faith is not something a lost man whips up on his own. It comes from God through the preaching of the Gospel.

 

[JonShaff]

I didn't allegorize anything. The passage says what it says.

Even in the bible, Peter was asleep when his deliverance came to him. The Angel had to tap him with his toe to wake him up. Acts 12 is a beautiful picture of our salvation.

You just allegorized Acts 12 and said it is a "picture of salvation".

 

[TCassidy]

Am I the only one who sees no personal attacks here whatsoever?

Perhaps you missed it. He said "You seem to think he said, "If you find yourself believing then you can be assured that you have been saved.""

I never said or thought any such thing. And he knows it, and knew it when he posted it.

Does he misrepresent your position?

Yes. He even implies it is Satanic.

Do you misrepresent his position?

No.

If this constitutes a personal attack, then you, my friend, are the proverbial "pot calling the kettle black."

Perhaps you didn't understand the posts?

 

[Yeshua1]

Exactly. Righteousness is the result of our faith in Christ. And that faith is the result of God giving us a New Beginning.

Faith is not something a lost man whips up on his own. It comes from God through the preaching of the Gospel.

The Gospel is used by the Holy Spirit to wake up and save the elect of God themselves.