What or who is predestinated?

Page 24..post 240

I disagree with your post.

The good seed is the WORD!!!!! and has nothing to do with souls. So when you say......"There is no doubt in my mind that the seed snatched away and the seed that fell on rocky ground are lost."...this is wrong. The seed is the WORD!!!

The ground is the hearers of the WORD!!! Some are good hears and recieve it...others let things get in their way..so that they do not hear/understand "choked out by weeds". This is in short order..our sin nature.

This is about hearing the WORD that was placed on the ground.

Now one last thing you must deal with..."This is the kingdom of Heaven" (or the likes) it says it over and over again. WHY??

 

Webdog,

ok...well..I understand. I do not hold to this as stated..and I'm sure you know this. I wanted to be clear before I replied. There was something you said way back when..that didn't sound just right...but I know we all do not choose the best words at times. But...now that I'm clear.....I do not need to cover one thing. But...i will address what started this...and that is...

You did not like this post of mine...

You feel this cannot be supported in the Bible. I think it can be...

John 6:44:
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

John 6
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

Acts 16:14:
14And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.


In Christ..James

 

In that quote, I should not have said the seed was regenerated. I misspoke. Since then, I said it was the word of God. But, as with Brother Bob, you are playing word games. The original question was, is the person who received the word (seed) on soil with weeds and thorns saved or not? And those who received the word or not (the four) how they received it, certainly does have to do with souls. The question about what the seed or soil represents was never asked. You steered the posts in that direction. Please answer the question.

 

Hello Saturn...

No big deal. We all say things at times in the wrong way.

1st...why do you keep posting about me and Bob??? This has nothing to do with this thread...and has nothing to do with you. If Bob wants to talk with me...he knows why I am. No need for you to fight for him. He does well on his own.

Page 23...post 223...this was your words....

I disagree. OK...In a way you may be able to pass this off. But I do not think this is the point of the text. The text is about hearing Gods Word and what we do with it. Again..you MUST look at the other key phrase here. "The Kingdom of God"...once you understand that...and the other phrase.."hearers"...the meaning is clear. Again i ask you...why is "The Kingdom of God" used many times? Why is it used..when it is talking about the Word going out? Now...you need to be aware...all of these parables are linked to each other.

Which are saved? Again...I think you'll missing the point. The point is some use sins in their life to NOT hear. This is the meaning of the text. The hearer...is the understanding one that later calls. The seed and the growth thereof is NOT salvation...but showing those that heard. You need also to look at the tares and the wheat which is the next parable..about the Kingdom of Heaven. Also...the mustard seed, leaven...pearl of of great price and the others...same thing....all of the "Kingdom of Heaven. I do not know what else to tell you other then READ the Bible. Its all there.

hummm

Well...we now have 3+ pages of the "seed" and no link at all to the subject of the thread. Saturn...I have said many times now I do not feel as you do about this passage. If you need to make a point, now is the time to do so. The only point you made, other then calling me names, you have now said that you "misspoke".



In Christ...James

 

"Ah! My dear readers, I will not ask for you that God may lay you on a bed of sickness, that he may strip you of all your wealth, and bring you to beggary; but, oh, if he were to do it, and you were to save your souls, it would be the best bargain you could ever make."

That was a quote from your cut and paste buddy Spurgeon. It is talking about the very essence of the question posed to you. It has nothing to do with salvation? It would be a good skill to learn if you would follow the lead of those your choose as your leader, and then maybe, one day, come up with some thoughts of your own.

 

what..yet another post about me? Have you ever thought of maybe addressing the Word of God? Now that's a new one. Once again I will address you.

As to Spurgeon...i have no idea why this is such a big deal to you. I said I was busy that day. Even if not busy...why make anything out of the fact that I agree with someone? This has to be the 4th-5th time you brought this up. I have seen nearly every person on this board quote others. Is that wrong? I don't think it is. Just a few pages back webdog did this..was that wrong? I do not think so. Your buddy Bob has quoted people..was he wrong? I don't think so. Why do you feel it is wrong? Or..is it only because i do it? You have a strange way to debate.

2nd..about Spurgeon. I do not have to believe every word of a man...if I use one quote. Now do I? Off the top of my head, I can give you 3 things I disagree with Spurgeon on. Does this mean I trash all his work? In no way.

You clipped 1 line out of a 3 post reply. Lets see if you still mislead. Below is the text around your line. The underline is your clip. Now read around the clip. I think Spurgeon is saying about the same thing. What do you do with what you hear?? Will you use the things of this world to hold back understanding? Will your sin nature stop what God has for you? Spurgeon takes it more toward a respones then I would. Yet even if you take it this way...it is clear that the ground is not salvation..the seed is not salvation...it is what they do with the seed. Does it bring fruit? The fruit is salvation and maybe other things. Its how you use the WORD..that is the point.

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We have this class very largely among us. These hear the word and understand what they hear. They take the truth home; they think it over; they even go the length of making a profession of religion. The wheat seems to spring and ear; it will soon come to perfection. Be in no hurry, these men and women have a great deal to see after; they have the cares of a large concern; their establishment employs so many hundred hands; do not be deceived as to their godliness—they have no time for it. They will tell you that they must live; that they cannot neglect this world; that they must anyhow look out for the present, and as for the future, they will render it all due attention by-and-by. They continue to attend gospel-preaching, and the poor little stunted blade of religion keeps on growing after a fashion. Meanwhile they have grown rich, they come to the place of worship in a carriage, they have all that heart can wish. Ah! Now the seed will grow, will it not? No, no. They have no cares now; the shop is given up, they live in the country; they have not to ask, "Where shall the money come from to meet the next bill?" or "how shall they be able to provide for an increasing family." Now they have too much instead of too little, for they have riches, and they are too wealthy to be gracious. "But," says one, "they might spend their riches for God." Certainly they might, but they do not, for riches are deceitful. They have to entertain much company, and chime in with the world, and so Christ and his church are left in the lurch.
Yes, but they begin to spend their riches, and they have surely got over that difficulty, for they give largely to the cause of Christ, and they are munificent in charity; the little blade will grow, will it not? No, for now behold the thorns of pleasure. Their liberality to others involves liberality to themselves; their pleasures, amusements, and vanities choke the wheat of true religion: the good grains of gospel truth cannot grow because they have to attend that musical party, that ball, and that soiree, and so they cannot think of the things of God. I know several specimens of this class. I knew one, high in court circles, who has confessed to me that he wished he were poor, for then he might enter the kingdom of heaven. He has said to me, "Ah! Sir, these politics, these politics, I wish I were rid of them, they are eating the life out of my heart; I cannot serve God as I would." I know of another, overloaded with riches, who has said to me, "Ah! Sir, it is an awful thing to be rich; one cannot keep close to the Saviour with all this earth about him."
Ah! My dear readers, I will not ask for you that God may lay you on a bed of sickness, that he may strip you of all your wealth, and bring you to beggary; but, oh, if he were to do it, and you were to save your souls, it would be the best bargain you could ever make. If those mighty ones who now complain that the thorns choke the seed could give up all their riches and pleasures, if they that fare sumptuously every day could take the place of Lazarus at the gate, it were a happy change for them if their souls might be saved. A man may be honourable and rich, and yet go to heaven; but it will be hard work, for "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven." God does make some rich men enter the kingdom of heaven, but hard is their struggle. Steady, young man, steady! Hurry not to climb to wealth! It is a place where many heads are turned. Do not ask God to make you popular; they that have popularity are wearied by it. Cry with Agur—"Give me neither poverty nor riches." God give me to tread the golden mean, and may I ever have in my heart that good seed, which shall bring forth fruit a hundredfold to his own glory.
******************

We have been over this many times. You disagree with me...fine. Now post your point...or do you have one? Again you posted one point..and then you took is back. What does this have to do with the subject? What is your views?

 

I would like to address the Scripture you posted as proof text that all men cannot hear and respond to the Word.

John 6:44. What does the text say? No man can come to Christ unless drawn by the Father. What it doesn't say is those who don't come to Christ are not drawn, as this is eisegesis of the text. What exactly is this "drawn" thing? God uses circumstances, people, and things to draw mankind to Himself. A lion is attracted (drawn) to meat, a horse to carrots, a child to toys, etc.

John 6:63. The Spirit gives life. You say prior to faith in Christ, I say as a result of faith in Christ (you claim faith is necessary, but I don't see how it is if you are already given "life" by the Spirit prior to faith). Verse 65 is a repeat of verse 44, and again does not support that those who do not come to Christ are not drawn.

Acts 16:14. Here we see God opening Lydia's heart (drawing). What the text doesn't say is Lydia's drawing is a rare occasioin, or even that others are not drawn. The inverse and converse of statements cannot automatically be assumed.

You will be hard pressed to find ONE Scripture that says God does not draw someone. You see plenty of instances of God drawing people to Christ, but the assumption that, therefore, others are not drawn is a pure eisegetical error.

BTW, you never did say what a "tread" was... :laugh:

 

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Something webdog said reminded me of this verse.

Who are they resisting? And, why is Stephen so upset about it? If they were not "chosen", they were not drawn, right? So what is this about resisting? According to some people, "they can't believe unless God makes them believe", so why not let them be?

 

Hello webdog,

Good post, yet I may have mislead you. These verses are not a proof text that man cannot come. This was showing that God enables those died in their sins.

To find the state of man before this happens, we must look at verse like this....that shows why he needs enabled.

Dead..Eph 2:10 dead though his trespasses and sin.

Romans 3..
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Man can not come and needs enabled... because of mans Sin nature/dead.

John 8:43
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Christ was not saying their ears did not work..he was saying they did not hear...because they were DEAD in their sin nature.

John 14:16-17:
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Holy Spirit is not known by the world, and can not just take it. Holy Spirit is given...

Romans 8:7-8:
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those dead in their sins...CAN NOT please God. It would please God that they would come to Him.

1 Corinthians 2:14:
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The lost man...dead in his sins....is unable to respond. That is the meaning of death. The dead can not hear Gods word, receive the Holy Spirit, submit to Gods Law, understand biblical teaching nor stop sinning.

That is why the Holy Spirit most enable before faith in God comes.


In Christ..James

 

"...through trespasses and sin" is the key. As I have stated repeatedly, spiritual death is soul separated from God in the same way our soul is separated from our bodies in physical death. Through trespasses and sin we become separated from God, we are not born this way.

Correct. This is the "drawing" of the Father from John 6:44. Again, there is never a distinct statement anywhere in Scripture stating that all men are not drawn, but on the contrary we do see in John 12:32 that all men ARE drawn.

In the "corpse" view of spiritual death, I guess you would be correct. The biblical view of spiritual death, I do not see it. Explain why the hearts of corpses need hardening, and why the "god of this world" needs to blind those who are already corpses?

Your timing is off. When is the Holy Spirit "given"? AFTER one has faith in Christ.

Agreed.

Scripture does not say man "dead in sin" cannot respond...calvinism does. You really limit the power of Christ who IS The Resurrection and The Life by stating that a dead man cannot respond to Him. Someone needs to tell Lazarus this... My Saviour overcame death, and has the power in His name alone to raise those who are not only physically dead, but spirtually as well. Logic and common sense tell us that physical corpses cannot respond, but we know from Scipture God outweighs logic and common sense, and a corpse CAN respond to Christ. We need to throw out the same human logic and common sense in dealing with spiritual death.

You are escalting the work of the Holy Spirit over and above God the Father, Christ, and His written Word. Show from Scripture where Christ and the Gospel found in Gods Word is powerless unless the Holy Spirit acts? The Trinity works in unison, not apart in salvation for mankind. God draws...man responds. There is no middle "step" of regeneration in between, but one is "born again" (true meaning of regeneration) once they are justified and become a new creation.

 

Hello Blammo,

Your verse ...

Holy Spirit

He is upset for he is told to share the good news. He is sharing...and these folks in sin resist.

right. But this is not Stephens job to gather who is elect and who is not. His job is to preach. God is the one that saves. We cannot talk any one into coming. God must work in their life 1st. I have been in church where the pastor comes down and tries to push someone down to the front of the church. That preacher can not save anyone. His job is to share Gods love. On the other side...I have yet to see a pastor tell one.."nope..sorry..your not the elect...go set back down." We have no idea who the elect is. We preach to all.

Which brings me to the point i wanted to post before someone got out of control a few pages back. The debate is about HOW TO BEST SHARE THE GOSPEL. Sometimes we forget this.

Calvinist say...we must tell the person he is a lost sinner in need of God's love/grace. We tell them that God calls all to Him. We also tell them Man loves sin to much to come. We tell them...it is not anything they can do to save themselives. It is the grace of God that saves all of us. We say..God is holy. You are a sinner. We go on and tell them...if you understand what I'm saying...and God is working in your heart...then you too may come to God. God saves sinners though the blood of Christ. We tell them believeing means you place all your trust in God as your only hope to save you from your sins. We ask them...will you come to Christ?

On the other side we see...God loves you..lets pray and you can go to heaven. I just see this is wrong. One must know what he is...what he is saved from...and that God has full power to do so.

Sin nature

I don't know who says this..but this is wrong too. God gives understanding...and makes no one believe. All must place their faith in God.


In Christ...James

 

This is preaching foolishness and half truths to those who are not the "elect", then. The "we preach to everyone because we don't know who the elect are" is a lame reason to preach, and not the reason why God commands us to do so. You don't believe God wants us to preach the FULL truth of His love and grace? This isn't done the calvingelism way.

 

Jarthur -

Yes, I know they are resisting the Holy Spirit. In other words, they are resisting being drawn to God.

Shouldn't Stephen have just said, "Oh well, I guess they're not chosen", and moved on down the road?

So, let's try it this way: "they can't place their faith in God unless God enables them to place their faith in God" Is that what you believe?

 

Who said they NEEDED to be?

Your right..in salvation. Yet not in understanding. We have already seen this.

Oh but it does. This is why I asked you about the atonement. If man did not DIE...as in dead we have somthing we must deal with on the atonement.

Good point....but as it turns out....Lazarus was a believer...right?

Then there must be Scipture to support this. Post is and we will ttalk about it.

The Bible is clear that both God the Father and Holy Spirit enables.

The Holy Spirit it is said my many is the Exective Executator if the Trinity. If you look at any action done by God, you will see Holy Spirit ...there..doing the work. He is not in the forefront, yet it is He that does the work.

..Gods Word....Men wrote as they were MOVED by the Holy Spirit.
Gen 1...the Spirit of God MOVED upon the face of the earth.
matt 1 18....mary was with child..of the Holy Spirit.

I could go on for days.

And I feel I have shown otherwise. I guess we leave it there. There is proof from the Bible, yet not all believe it is there.



In Christ..James

 

Hello Blammo,

They can't place their faith in God, because they love sin to much and see not need to be saved. They are, as the Bible say..."DEAD"...cannot respond, cannot understand.

If God is sovereign and man is depraved/DEAD, then it follows that some will be saved, none will be saved or, all will be saved. The practical results of election are that some, yea many, will be saved. Election is not a plan to save a mere handful of folk. Christ gave Himself a ransom for many.

Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

God's sovereignty ....involves His pleasure

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Mat 11:25-27 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

also...His power

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Jer 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

..His mercy.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

We go..for we are told to Go and we do it in LOVE for God.

More on this later..I need to do some work.

Good debate.


In Christ..James

 

Does not this describe you at some point? Were you not "dead in trespasses and sins" before you put your faith in Christ? (Then you were born again so you could be born again, right?) :laugh:

Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Which one is it? It must be both, right?

 

:laugh: :laugh: That is Sooooo funny. :laugh: What a hoot. Good one!!
What would be even funnier is if I said it. Oh well..

Maybe you forget what I said..you can look back and find it...its not that hard. Why not look that up for us..and report back. Deal?

This is the great thing. It does work in Calvinisim. The other side stays away from that one verse...and I'll let you guess which one I'm talking about.

 

Webdog...

Ok..you see. A few days ago, ..no wait..i mean..back when I was 2 years old. ...yeah..way back then is when it all started. You see..there was this big guy...oh he was very very big....i mean..3 big guys...and they wanted to .... well.....

Ok i had a bike...and I was 5 not 2 years old...and...

Wait..hold on..you wanted to know what "tread" means..ok..now I understand. If you look in the greek...it means..Calvinisim is right.

I guess that ends the debate for good.

 

You said: "Regeneration is the act of God awakening spiritual life within us, bringing us from spiritual death to spiritual life. On this definition, it is natural to understand that regeneration comes before saving faith. It is in fact this work of God that gives us the spiritual ability to respond to God in faith. However, when we say that it comes "before" saving faith, it is important to remember that they usually come so close together that it will ordinarily seem to us that they are happening at the same time."

Regeneration = new birth

So, you are saying that you are reborn before you believe?

Neither one of those two verses negates the other. So, you have to accept the fact that He gave himself a ransom for all.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

"...to give his life a ransom for many", simply means not "all" will believe. Not "all" will accept it. Making it effective only to the "many" who believe.