What or who is predestinated?

[webdog]

bring on the verses..and we shall see.

I asked the question. It's a simple reply. You either have Scripture, or you don't. It doesn't fall on me to supply the Scripture to a question I ask.

Well, if the atonement changed NOTHING in the state of man before salvation, then this is pure pelagius being shot down by nearly every age.

Strawman. I never stated it changed nothing in the state of man before salvation. Without Christ's atonement, we wouldn't even be debating each other.

DEAD means dead..and it is on you to show that dead means anything other then dead. What is so funny..God used the STRONGEST word you can use to show the state of man. Yet some say...Oh I'm not that bad. Tell me another word that would place man lower. Dead...is nothing...no response...it gets no lower. If I had the time I would show the greek of each time it is used. In ALL CASES...it means no response.

Noooo...it's on you to provide Scripture that I asked for originally that a spiritually dead man cannot respond to Christ. Nekros means dead literally or figuratively.

The no responce...yes this has been shown. You changed a few words to fit your understanding...but het...that's the way it is. If I have time later..i'll give you more verses

Brother, the only non response was from you. You can supply all the verses you want, but not one will be about man being unable to respond to The Life.

 

[saturneptune]

Arthur, I will give you this. You are very consistant on how you answer questions from person to person. Very excellent.

 

[Dale-c]

Saturn, you have accused me of poor behavior. If I was so terrible, please show me what I did, specifically so that I can apologize.
Thanks,

Dale

 

[saturneptune]

Dale,
Not going to play your game. Go back through the thread, see how you talked to Brother Bob for starters. If the phrases do not appear condesending to you, along with the other persons, then get a perception check. After you figure that out, read your other posts.

 

[Jarthur001]

Now Blammo,
There goes the bell for English class. We will have a test next session on the above word list. And remember, you must commit these words to memory, no cutting and pasting.

Great wording. As the Bible says...."study to show thyself approved".

But if we were to get back to the subject just for a few moments...

We can see...God has anger and not just a God of love...something some want to forget. Christ...Goes to WAR!! Those that follow God on one side...and those ..the sinners...those that do not follow God on the earth. God hates SIN and goes after those that DARE stand up to Him.


13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

humm. Not the picture we see every Sunday in Church is it? The fact is...God hates Sin. HE WILL MAKE WAR...with those that do not follow him.

And this is the 1st death. Hell is right around the next page.


Now...back to your jokes.

 

[Jarthur001]

Actually jayless arthur, I agree with most of what Calvin says, as does the Bible. It is too bad that you arent the spokesman for the free willers, as I have a real problem with people who think they are superior to others. Just as soon have you on the other side.

yet another great post....and good joke too.

and as to why I say God is in full control...

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


And now...back to your jokes

 

[saturneptune]

But if we were to get back to the subject just for a few moments...

We can see...God has anger and not just a God of love...something some want to forget. Christ...Goes to WAR!! Those that follow God on one side...and those ..the sinners...those that do not follow God on the earth. God hates SIN and goes after those that DARE stand up to Him.

Your theology expertise continues. Since all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God (that is in Romans), please inform all of us who are not up to your level who are those who follow God on one side, and as you say those..... who are sinners on the other. Since we are still sinners after salvation, please explain who those who follow God on the one side are, since you imply they are not sinners since the other side is sinners and opposes them. Reading Romans 7 and 8 will let you know we struggle with sin the rest of our natural life. So tell us, who is it that follows God without sin. Maybe a saint in the Catholic Church? just guessing.

 

[Dale-c]

Dale,
Not going to play your game. Go back through the thread, see how you talked to Brother Bob for starters. If the phrases do not appear condesending to you, along with the other persons, then get a perception check. After you figure that out, read your other posts.

WEll, you can't "play my game" because I am not playing a game.
If you can accuse me, you can give me specific instances.

You state perception. Well, perhaps I came across and being mean. I certianly did not intend to do that so if you would be so kind as to point those times out to me, I can explain what I really meant or apologize if I was wrong.
Your unbacked slaps at me show no character whatsoever on your part.
If I have been in error, you shouldn't have any problem showing them to me.
I do make mistakes.
I am not perfect. Never claim to be.
But if you are going to accuse me, you had better tell me exaclty what it is that you are accusing of!

 

[webdog]

WEll, you can't "play my game" because I am not playing a game.
If you can accuse me, you can give me specific instances.

They've all been edited by DHK.

 

[Jarthur001]

I asked the question. It's a simple reply. You either have Scripture, or you don't. It doesn't fall on me to supply the Scripture to a question I ask.

I'm asking you to post verses about hardening the heart...and why you think this is not needed to the man in his sin nature...if in fact he is DEAD....or is this your own strawman?

Strawman. I never stated it changed nothing in the state of man before salvation. Without Christ's atonement, we wouldn't even be debating each other.
Ok...let me ask again. What did Christ work on the cross do to change man? Other then...in your view...give him a path to God?

Noooo...it's on you to provide Scripture that I asked for originally that a spiritually dead man cannot respond to Christ. Nekros means dead literally or figuratively.


I have. I used the word enabled..you said it was not used but rather only DRAW. But..enable is used..in john 6. right? what is it..john 6 63-65...somewhere in there.

Do the greek thing.

and yes..nekros is used death of the body...can not respond.
spiritual condition...can not respond..matt 8:22..john 5:25...eph 2:1,5 5:14...phil 3:11, col 2: 13....luke 15:24

also...the church in declension...

also...dead to sin...meaning apart from the law. (i know what is coming on this..but i'm ready)

also...dead to the works of the law....no need to respond to the law

and faith that is dead...no response to good works,


But also...nekroo..the active voice...col 3:5

and nekroo...the passive voice...romans 4:19...heb 11:12

also...thanatoo....to be put to death,,,

the only ground you have to stand on..is hemithanes. this is used only one time..luke 10:30.

all others mean...can not respond. am i right...or what?

 

[Dale-c]

They've all been edited by DHK.

DHK has edited my posts?
I was unaware of that.

Do you know which ones he edited?
Thanks.

 

[webdog]

DHK has edited my posts?
I was unaware of that.

Do you know which ones he edited?
Thanks.

Quite a few. He edited all non topic posts at least half way through this thread.

 

[Jarthur001]

sorry...didomi

someone do a good word study on this for us....will ya? :smilewinkgrin: :smilewinkgrin: :smilewinkgrin:


In Christ...James

 

[Dale-c]

Quite a few. He edited all non topic posts at least half way through this thread.

Yes, I just went back and looked. Many were.

I do like to keep in on topic, which you have done well to do, webdog.

I am just wondering why I am accused of these things.

What is the proper thing? Do I need to start a new thread to find out what I have done to be so offensive?
BTW, I don't have any problem with you, Webdog, personally that is. Of course we disagree doctrinally.

Anyway, I am not sure what I am supposed to do.


Back to the actual topic as the OP said...do you webdog belive that it was people who were predistinated, or things that were predestinated?
Meaning, that actual people were the ones being predestined, or were things predestined to happen to people that were at the time unknown?
Does that make sense?

 

[Dale-c]

someone do a good word study on this for us....will ya?

Is that greek?

 

[Jarthur001]

Your theology expertise continues. Since all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God (that is in Romans), please inform all of us who are not up to your level who are those who follow God on one side, and as you say those..... who are sinners on the other. Since we are still sinners after salvation, please explain who those who follow God on the one side are, since you imply they are not sinners since the other side is sinners and opposes them. Reading Romans 7 and 8 will let you know we struggle with sin the rest of our natural life. So tell us, who is it that follows God without sin. Maybe a saint in the Catholic Church? just guessing.

come now..this is to easy.

its the righteous sinners that has been PAID for with a price...See hosea for more details.
ok ok..lets look real fast. Hosea is like a big play...the story is real..but the story has a meaning. Hosea is told to go marry a "lady of the night". Yes, God told hosea to take such a one as his wife. Humm. This is a long story about sin in itself. But, there was a reason for this.

Hosea wed gomer. she ran away...and ended up as a slave. Hosea was told to buy her off of the slave market. Can someone give me a word here? How about RANSOM. Yeah BABY!!! Now that is what I'm talking about!!

Humm.

Ok..anyway..the reason for this..God wanted to show the jews that he PAID the ransom for them. Bought from the slave market. God now OWNS THEM!!! Which means, if Christ PAID for our sins on the cross, who owns us? humm. Did God die for all? If so, he paid for all of us..and now owns all of us. We have no say so..do we...being a slave..and having someone OWN US.

but..that is another story..so..we have the righteous sinners ..standing with God. Yes...they were paid for by his blood, but are still sinners. Anyway...the righteous sinners..taking a stand with God...and the sinners against Gods way...wanting their own way. Yes..this is the war picture. But..again..why is it that we are righteous sinners.

Cor 5...if you had come to class you would know this..i just went over it.


For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


WOW...good stuff there. Can someone say...GLORY!!!???


In Christ..James

 

[saturneptune]

You are wrong. Christ paid for our sins. That does not mean we never sin again. Your post said there was a group of people who followed God that did not sin. The question is, for the second time, who are these people?

 

[Jarthur001]

Is that greek?

yes...strongs word..1325

A good verse to start with...john 6:65

used 413 times.

 

[Dale-c]

You are wrong. Christ paid for our sins. That does not mean we never sin again. Your post said there was a group of people who followed God that did not sin. The question is, for the second time, who are these people?

I did not understand Jarthur to be saying that we become sinless.
But I will let him speak for himself.

The point is, God demands perfection from us. We can't give him perfection, but with the covering of His blood, we become perfect in Him, but then it is HIS ritghteousness.

 

[Jarthur001]

You are wrong. Christ paid for our sins. That does not mean we never sin again. Your post said there was a group of people who followed God that did not sin. The question is, for the second time, who are these people?

Nope...never said such a thing. If I did it was wrong. We all sin.

please post where i said that...but know this..if that was said..it was a typo.

Any more jokes for us?