What Side Of The Fence Are You?

[saturneptune]

Just as repentance and faith are inseparable graces but have a logical order of repentance before faith or turning away from sin turning to Christ, so also regeneration and conversion (repentance and faith) are inseparable graces that have a logical order where regeneration occurs first before conversion to the gospel.

Regeneration is eternal life imparted by the Holy Spirit in your person by new birth as child (teknia) of God wheras justification by faith is eternal life imputed to your person by adoption as a son (huios) of God.

So, regeneration or spiritual life precedes faith whereas justification of life follows faith. The first is spiritual and has to do with your person while the latter is legal and has to do with your position before God.

The former is a child by birth while the latter is a son by adoption.

There is no such thing as an unregenerated believer or a regenerated unbeliever but logically regeneration produces faith and is not completed without faith.

God creates a new heart and that heart is a believing heart rather than becomes a beleiving heart. This is the grammatical truth in I John 5:1. The new birth (Aorist tense) and "beleiveth" (present tense). Logically the Aorist tense action has been completed before the progressive present tense believing but grammatically they are simeltaneous action and that is why the verb "is" shows a state of being that combines both.

Thanks Dr. Walter for your response. We do agree 100% on this. Actually, my foundation on this doctrine was the Presbyterian Church (PCA) I grew up in. My only remaining question is, how can you be so right on sovereignty and so wrong on communion?

Just kidding.

 

[Dr. Walter]

In I Jn. 5:1 the primary verb is Aorist tense translated by the English term "born." The present tense participle is translated by the English term "believeth." The participle modifies the verb but is governed by the tense of the verb. This means the action of the participle is present and therefore is identical action with the verb. If the participle had been a completed action verb (Aorist, perfect, imperfect) the action of believing would have preceded the new birth. If the action of the participle was future then beleiving would have occurred after being born again. However, it is present and thus is simeltaneous with the action of the new birth.

However, logically, birth precedes believing as it modifies the verb but not chronologically. They are inseparable.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Thanks Dr. Walter for your response. We do agree 100% on this. Actually, my foundation on this doctrine was the Presbyterian Church (PCA) I grew up in. My only remaining question is, how can you be so right on sovereignty and so wrong on communion?

Just kidding.

I will grant you that there is much more room to believe in "close" communion than "open" but I believe the overall evidence demands "closed." I would dispute the "close" position but certainly would not disfellowship anyone over it.

 

[saturneptune]

I will grant you that there is much more room to believe in "close" communion than "open" but I believe the overall evidence demands "closed." I would dispute the "close" position but certainly would not disfellowship anyone over it.

Thanks for your posts on regeneration and faith. You make the doctrine very easy to understand.

 

[Humblesmith]

Category mistake

I haven't read the 182 replies on this thread, and I'm not planning to. But the question in the poll, in my opinion, is not worded as clearly as it could. By asking if our will cooperates in the work of regeneration, it's like asking "what does blue sound like?" The work of regeneration is entirely from God; we cannot regenerate ourselves, just like we cannot create ourselves. I cannot will myself regenerated, even if I wanted to. We might as well ask "what role did Adam's will have in his creation?" We cannot create ourselves nor can we regenerate ourselves. You can't literally pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

But all this has nothing to do with whether the human will has anything to do with accepting salvation. In the command to repent, God has given the human the ability to accept or reject God's regenerative power.

There's nothing logically contradictory with the idea that God could allow humans to make a decision of salvation. And there's nothing logically contradictory with God working through human will. But there is something logically contradictory with creating or regenerating oneself, which is what would happen in the definitions in the OP. As stated, the question is a category mistake.

 

[kyredneck]

..... In the command to repent, God has given the human the ability to accept or reject God's regenerative power.

There's nothing logically contradictory with the idea that God could allow humans to make a decision of salvation. And there's nothing logically contradictory with God working through human will.......

IMO, you clearly should have voted synergistic:

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

 

[webdog]

You look for any interpretation in any verse to support your Arminian view points.

This could be said about the "logical" order I keep reading about on this thread of which I believe you hold to.

I'm kind of disappointed in you SN. Of all people you should know that everyone who is not a calvinist is not a default arminian.

 

[webdog]

Therefore in the lost person there is nothing but the fallen nature and it has no spiritual capability to receive spiritual things period. However, in the saved person there is through the power of the indwelling Spirit another option as there is another "law" at work in the renewed "inward man."

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with all wicked deception for(S) those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Sure sounds like Paul believed in "spiritual capability to receive spiritual things" in the reprobate.

 

[webdog]

IMO, you clearly should have voted synergistic:

No, he voted the only way one who holds to the truth on this thread could vote...he couldn't and explained in great detail his view. Salvation is entirely of God, yet He demands man has faith. It's not either / or.

 

[Dr. Walter]

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with all wicked deception for(S) those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Sure sounds like Paul believed in "spiritual capability to receive spiritual things" in the reprobate.

Yes, The fallen nature is perfectly able and willing to receive spiritual things of one type - demonic! The fallen nature is a comprade of Satan and under the power of Satan (2 Cor. 4:4).

Verses 9-11 is the "them" or "they" group who are characterized by spiritual resistance to the truth, haters of truth. Nothing but their own free will to resist and reject the truth is attributed to them as the cause of damnation.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


However, in direct contrast to this group of "them" and "they" who are willing servants of Satan and who willing reject truth we have the following contrasted group whose reception of the truth is attributed to nothing but the election of God from the beginning:

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Why does Paul thank God for this "you"? BECAUSE God hath FROM THE BEGINNING chosen you TO SALVATION. Why say that of this "you" but not of "them." Note FROM THE BEGINNING they were chosen to.....the belief of the truth" as well. Note God "called you by our gospel" but no such calling is attributed to "them."

Now, someone is sure to say that the first group are the followers of the anti-christ in the distant future and therefore this text has nothing to do with the lost condition.

However, Paul applies the contrasted group in verses 13-14 to people right now. Now, will you argue that the characteristics in verses 13-14 only apply to the the particular saints at thessalonica and nobody else or to all those elected "in him" from the foundation of the World (Eph. 1:4; 1 Tim. 1:7)???? If such characteristics are applicable to all the elect in all ages than the characteristics in verses 10-12 are applicable to all the non-elect in all ages.

On the other hand, if you don't admit this but restrict the characteristics in verses 10-12 to just this future specific group and apply the contrasting characteristics in verses 13-14 to just the Thessalonican Christians that is still an admission that God has not chosen the group in verses 10-12 from the beginning to salvation and "belief of the truth" but left them to follow the dictates of their own depraved will in rejection of the truth while God has chosen the group in verses 13-14 to the belief of the truth.

 

[Skandelon]

Whether they are saved or lost makes no difference.

It makes a difference in the application of this passage. If Paul is addressing believers who are unable to accept the deep spiritual teachings and Calvinists apply that as a proof text supporting their view of total inability with regard to the nature of man then that certainly makes a difference.

The fallen nature is the same in the saved as it is in the lost except for one thing. In the saved you have an alternative nature and option but in the lost you do not.

According to scripture if a man has not been hardened he could, "see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them." (Acts 28) You presume that men are born in a hardened condition, but clearly the scripture teaches otherwise. The Jew hearts had grew hard, "otherwise they might...repent." The Gentiles, who had not been sent the revelation of God, had not grown hardened which is why continues saying, "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

So, the Jew, who has been hardened, no longer has an option. The Gentile, who has not be hardened, does have an option.

However, the characteristics of that nature are the same in the saved as in the lost. There is NOTHING GOOD in the fleshly nature whether you are saved or lost (Rom. 7:18-25). There is nothng spiritually alive in the fallen nature whether you are saved or lost. There is no spiritual abilities in that nature saved or lost. The fleshly nature is incapable of receiving spiritual things whether in the saved or the lost. The fleshly nature is not able to discern spiritual things whether in the saved or the lost.

You're right, unless God does something man is hopeless, but God DOES do something. He sends the powerful holy spirit wrought gospel truth. You presume that work is not sufficient which is never supported by scripture.

 

[Skandelon]

Do you know the difference between a physically dead person who has been dead ten minutes and one who has been dead a week? The difference is not total death but degree in corruption due to total death. Likewise, all mankind are born spiritual dead and totally depraved, meaning that every faculty is spiritually dead.

So, when Paul referred to Christians as being "dead to sin" that means they are completely unable to sin, right? You are reading too much into the analogy. James also speaks of death in describing the effects of sin on mankind and he states it this way, "...each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." (James 1)

Death is analogous and should not be taken to mean "total inability" to respond to God's powerful work of reconciliation. Scripture never goes that far to describe man's nature from birth as being unable to respond to God. You are confusing the Sin Nature, which is from birth, with the condition of hardening, which comes only after a time of continual rebellion toward God's clearly seen and understood revelations.

They are born like unexposed clay. The more sunlight they are exposed to the harder they get. The more they are exposed to truth the more resistant they become.

I agree. So, they are not born TOTALLY hardened. They are born able to see, hear and turn (Acts 28:21-28; John 12:39-41 etc)

This is why salvation is giving them a "new" heart (Ezek. 36:26-27) and a "new" spirit because the old nature is incapable of any kind of spiritual persuasion, activity, perception, understanding in regard to God .

This statement is in complete contradiction to what Paul taught in Romans 1. Paul clearly shows that the very reason people were "without excuse" was because they DID "clearly see," "know" and "understand" the invisible attributes and divine qualities of God. You just said they are incapable of perception or understanding which would give them perfect excuse on the day of judgement.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Christians are dead TO sin positionally "in Christ" and in Christ positionally they cannot sin - that is their immutable legal position. Romans 6:4-11 deals with this POSITION "in Christ" which is manifested in baptism as shown in the "likeness" of his death and resurrection. We are to accept by faith our POSITION "in Christ" where we are "dead to sin" and yeild to the Holy Spirit in order to obtain victory over sin in our life. Not perfect victory but progessive victory.

However, Ephesians 2:1-3 and 4:17-19 are not talking about the position of a saved person "in Christ" being "dead to sin." It is talking about the CONDITION of the most inner aspect of man's nature which is separated from God and under the dominion and power and presence of Satan. It is talking about the seat of SPIRITUAL perception, ability, union and fellowship with the spirit world. It is talking about the governing spiritual disposition of fallen man. In regard there is no spiritual union, no love, no fellowship, no desire, no friendship but enmity, hate, resistance and rejection only and always. That is its spiritual state or condition.

However, Ephesians 2:1-3; 4:17-19 it is not talking about the NATURAL mental faculties in fallen man. He has NATURAL mental abilities to perceive, understand the light of conscience, light of nature and the light of the gospel and by "light" I mean knowledge revealed. The knowledge revealed by conscience, the knowlege revealed of God in nature and the knowledge revealed in the gospel message or any other aspect of God's Word. He is cognant of and can comprehend MENTALLY the data provided by all these sources of light. He is not born with a hardened mental and emotional state of the NATURAL faculties. Hardening of the mind and emotions come with exposure and repeated resistance.

However, his mental faculties do not have the capability of SPIRITUAL PERCEPTION. There is a greater and higher source of knowledge or intuition that must be given by God. To illustrate what I mean. As a child of God, you may have prayed and studied a passage of scripture for years and struggled but have not grasped it. Then one day out of the blue, God lifts the shutters and you see it. Not because you studied any harder, not because your any smarter, not because you had not read that scripture a thousand times but because God chose to reveal it on a higher plane of understanding found not in your mental facilities but in your spirit. The bible did not impart that understanding because you read it a thousand times and still did not understand it. The Holy Spirit soveriengly revealed it in your spirit by direct intuition. The lost man has this faculty of intuition but it is possessed by Satan and separated from God.

In the lost unregenerate man, the light of conscience does not provide that direct spiritual perception. The light of nature does not provide that direct spiritual perception. The light of God's Word does not provide that direct spiritual perception. What provides that direct spiritual perception is God the Holy Spirit removing the power of Satan within you, casting him out, and revealing that light directly by a making the gospel His creative word producing life/light within you:

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance;


A man can hear the gospel with the human ear a thousand times but it has no power to overcome the indwelling power of Satan every singe time of that one thousand times UNTIL God is please to reveal His son in that sinner:

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me

You were no more involved in your first physical birth than you are in your re-generation. Both occurred "when it pleased God" and both occurred when God effectually called physical life and spiritual life into existence. The gospel did not reveal Christ to you - GOD revealed Christ IN you when it PLEASED God to do so and a man can hear the gospel a million times and until it PLEASES God to reveal Christ "IN HIM" there will be no spiritual perception of Christ to that sinner.

What the unregenerate man does mentally perceive in nature, in the conscience or in the gospel he will always either pervert or reject because he has no SPIRITUAL LIGHT turned on. Both perversion and rejection begin the process of hardening the NATURAL intellectual and emotional guided faculties.

The regenerate man is like butter and the unregenerate man is like clay. The same Sunlight shines on both. The same light that melts the butter hardens the clay. The difference between this is there NATURE. The unregenerate NATURE with constant exposure will only and always eventually get more hardened.

Don't respond to this post until you carefully reread it and objectively evaluate what has been said.

It makes a difference in the application of this passage. If Paul is addressing believers who are unable to accept the deep spiritual teachings and Calvinists apply that as a proof text supporting their view of total inability with regard to the nature of man then that certainly makes a difference.


According to scripture if a man has not been hardened he could, "see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them." (Acts 28) You presume that men are born in a hardened condition, but clearly the scripture teaches otherwise. The Jew hearts had grew hard, "otherwise they might...repent." The Gentiles, who had not been sent the revelation of God, had not grown hardened which is why continues saying, "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

So, the Jew, who has been hardened, no longer has an option. The Gentile, who has not be hardened, does have an option.

You're right, unless God does something man is hopeless, but God DOES do something. He sends the powerful holy spirit wrought gospel truth. You presume that work is not sufficient which is never supported by scripture.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Arrgh, you've given only two alternatives to the theological equivalent of quantum physics. The way I look at it salvation from the human perspective is parallel operation happening at the speed of "let there be light". Yes, the is an order no doubt, but the only one who can sort it out is God Himself.

 

[kyredneck]

I haven't read the 182 replies on this thread, and I'm not planning to. But the question in the poll, in my opinion, is not worded as clearly as it could. By asking if our will cooperates in the work of regeneration, it's like asking "what does blue sound like?" The work of regeneration is entirely from God; we cannot regenerate ourselves, just like we cannot create ourselves. I cannot will myself regenerated, even if I wanted to. We might as well ask "what role did Adam's will have in his creation?" We cannot create ourselves nor can we regenerate ourselves. You can't literally pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

But all this has nothing to do with whether the human will has anything to do with accepting salvation. In the command to repent, God has given the human the ability to accept or reject God's regenerative power.

There's nothing logically contradictory with the idea that God could allow humans to make a decision of salvation. And there's nothing logically contradictory with God working through human will. But there is something logically contradictory with creating or regenerating oneself, which is what would happen in the definitions in the OP. As stated, the question is a category mistake.

No, he voted the only way one who holds to the truth on this thread could vote...he couldn't and explained in great detail his view. Salvation is entirely of God, yet He demands man has faith. It's not either / or.

Let me get this straight. God only can regenerate. God wants to regenerate. God cannot/will not regenerate unless man accepts the regeneration.

Is this what you're saying?

 

[Skandelon]

Don't respond to this post until you carefully reread it and objectively evaluate what has been said.

Dr. Walter, you have articulated the traditional Calvinistic position quite thoroughly and eloquently. Having been Calvinistic for many years of my life I understand your position quite well and the frustration you express here toward me is the same frustration I have with regard to how you have "seemed" to bypass over my point of contention with regard to the biblical data I have presented.

Paul, not I, said, " For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

He clearly shows us the ability of a person who has not "become calloused." They "might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn." How can that be any more clear?

With all due respect, your reply was simply a more elaborate restatement of your position and in no way dealt with the texts that were presented. You draw speculative conclusions as if they are proven facts but seem to avoid the apparent contradictions you have with scriptures clear teachings.

Please explain what the practical "real world" differences is in the nature of a person who is merely "totally depraved" and one who is "hardened."

Can either see, hear, understand and repent when presented the with God's appeal to be reconciled? If not, can you explain the text I've presented?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dr. Walter, you have articulated the traditional Calvinistic position quite thoroughly and eloquently. Having been Calvinistic for many years of my life I understand your position quite well and the frustration you express here toward me is the same frustration I have with regard to how you have "seemed" to bypass over my point of contention with regard to the biblical data I have presented.

Paul, not I, said, " For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

He clearly shows us the ability of a person who has not "become calloused." They "might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn." How can that be any more clear?

With all due respect, your reply was simply a more elaborate restatement of your position and in no way dealt with the texts that were presented. You draw speculative conclusions as if they are proven facts but seem to avoid the apparent contradictions you have with scriptures clear teachings.

Please explain what the practical "real world" differences is in the nature of a person who is merely "totally depraved" and one who is "hardened."

Can either see, hear, understand and repent when presented the with God's appeal to be reconciled? If not, can you explain the text I've presented?

The difference is between worldly wisdom or the rationale and comprehension that comes with the first birth in contrast to the wisdom or rationale and comphrension which comes by new birth. Natural born humans come with a lower comprehension level (natural) whereas Supernatural born humans come with enlightenment above that level, and in addition to that, they are indwelt by the Teacher of Truth.

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.


In verse 11 it is God who determines who he will give ability to perceive truth unto. He intentionally spoke in parables to conceal the truth from those in the context.

In verse 12 those who God chose to give the truth unto will be given more and those whom God did not choose to give truth unto will suffer loss of what they do have.

In verse 13 there are eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear because God has not given the level of perception to understand and see.

In verse 14-15 Christ supplies prophecy to confirm what he just taught in verses 11-13.

Get the order here. In verse 14 he simply repeats what he said in verse 11-13 that God determines who is given the ability to preceive and receive the truth and if God does not give that ability their eyes will not see it nor will their ears hear it.

In verse 15 Isaiah deals with perception which they do possess and on this lower level. However, their response on this lower level is to reject and resist what they can seen and what can be heard and what can be perceived and this continuing rejection and resistance is what "hardens" the level of perception they began with.

Nothing prevents them from responding to what they can see, hear and perceive on this lower level but their own depraved resistant will. No one is accountable for this resistant, rejecting reaction but their own depraved will. Nothing prevents them from receiving and responding and turning to God for salvation but their own depraved resistant will. God would save them if they would turn to him but the WILL NOT and therefore they CANNOT.

Verse 16 corresponds to verse 11 - they are blessed because God has given them a HIGHER LEVEL of sight, hearing and understanding.

In verse 15, there is a lower level of perception to the light of conscience, light of nature and light of the gospel. However, this lower level has for its modus operation natural enmity toward God (Rom. 8:7) and does not come to the light because it hates the light (Jn. 3:19-20) and that is why it always and without exception ends up in a hardened state. The hardening is gradual because the natural resistant is progressive.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

It is this depraved natural reaction to light that produces hardening against that light

 

[webdog]

Let me get this straight. God only can regenerate. God wants to regenerate. God cannot/will not regenerate unless man accepts the regeneration.

Is this what you're saying?

It's what God's Word says...not my words. If He has decreed it to be so, why deny it?

 

[Skandelon]

Dr. Walter, I couldn't help but notice that once again you failed to deal with the biblical support I presented. While I appreciate you introducing another text it really doesn't address the text already presented.

The difference is between worldly wisdom or the rationale and comprehension that comes with the first birth in contrast to the wisdom or rationale and comphrension which comes by new birth. Natural born humans come with a lower comprehension level (natural) whereas Supernatural born humans come with enlightenment above that level, and in addition to that, they are indwelt by the Teacher of Truth.

So, explain what that means practically. You have person A who is born Totally Depraved but who is just now for the first time hearing the gospel message. Then you have person B who has "become hardened" over a period of rebellion against God's revelations.

What is the difference in the ability or nature of person A and person B? In other words, what CAN person A do that person B now cannot do because of his hardened state? You have not addressed that point as far as I can tell.

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

You presume that those "it is given unto" are the elect ones and those it is not given to are the non-elect reprobates who never have hope of salvation, but consider the alternative. Could it be that Christ had only selected a remnant from Israel to reveal himself to while here on earth; all the while hardening the rest of Israel in their rebellion? Could he be doing this to accomplish redemption for them all? They wouldn't crucify a man they believe in, so doesn't it make sense that God might blind them or keep them in the dark about the truth so as to accomplish the crucifixion through their rebellion? Isn't that what scripture actually teaches?

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Why would you need to hide the truth in parables if they are born Total Depraved? If they are unable to spiritually discern the gospel truth apart from the effectual work of the Holy Spirit then why would He need to speak in parables in order to keep them from believing?

The truth is that Christ is temporarily hardening Israel in their rebellion to accomplish redemption through them and once he is lifted up he will send the gospel into all the world and draw all men to himself. Until the veil is ripped the eyes of Israel remain in darkness...with the exception of the remnant first fruits of Israel who were selected out of Israel to take the message to the world.

 

[kyredneck]

It's what God's Word says...not my words. If He has decreed it to be so, why deny it?

Webdog, that is very clearly synergistic. My point here is that the options laid out in the OP are clear, concise, and easily applicable to both camps, i.e., free willers and sovereign gracers. That's all.

My argueing days on this topic are about over. As far as I'm concerned it is an excercise in futility. The fact is we have a lot more in common in our Lord than not.