What Side Of The Fence Are You?

[saturneptune]

Now, if we want to be "fruit" inspectors then those who profess to be saved must demonstrate it by their works or else there is no evidence they have been changed. However, not all "fruit" of righteous works demonstrate a person has been saved (Mt. 7:21-There are many personally nice, kind, thoughtful, religiously minded doer's of righteousness that profess Christ that have never been born again and are just as lost as the devil (Jn. 8:30,44).

What a bunch of baloney. You post something like this, and in another thread, you justify closed communion by protecting an unregenerated church roll to take the Lord's Supper.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone WITHOUT WORKS - period. No human being is capable before or after regeneration/conversion/justification/adoption to measure up to God's standard of righteousness so it is the "ungodly" who is justified (Rom. 4:5).

Now, if we want to be "fruit" inspectors then those who profess to be saved must demonstrate it by their works or else there is no evidence they have been changed. However, not all "fruit" of righteous works demonstrate a person has been saved (Mt. 7:21-23). There are many personally nice, kind, thoughtful, religiously minded doer's of righteousness that profess Christ that have never been born again and are just as lost as the devil (Jn. 8:30,44).

Another problem for fruit inspectors is that of spiritual growth, limited measures of grace and faith (Rom. 12:3,5).

The bottom line is that no man measures up to the standard of the Law before or after salvation as no man is without sin (1 Jn. 1:8-10). However, if you want others to believe you have been saved, and if you want personal assurance you are saved, and if you want to experience the joy and blessings of the Lord and want to grow spiritually in knowledge and grace than "keep my commandments."

You or I may decide someone is lost due to errors in their profession, doctrine or lifestyle but we are not the final judge of the soul. Lot did not exhibit the kind of fruit that professed salvation, however, when compared in contrast to the ungodliness of Sodomites he was a jewel in comparison. If we did not have Peter's words that he was a saved man we would not have gathered it by the evidence left in the Old Testament as the last word we have is drunkenesss and incest with his daughters. Solomon lived the latter part of his life in less than a desired condition.

Sinlessness is never the "fruit" of genuine salvation but a changed attitude toward sin even that in Romans 7:14-125 is such a fruit, although much of that struggle is INTERNAL and UNSEEN by human eyes.

So basically said we are just as useless after salvation as we were before salvation. Theoretically speaking. God wants to do nothing through us. God has nothing for us to do. God is not pleased when we do his will? Is that the summation of your point?

So even after salvation there is no reward for the things we do? No crowns to cast before the Lords feet? Hmmm. If we are truly dung covered with snow after salvation whats the point?

Do I carry my sin into heaven? Will I be no more than an invited guest at a dinner table once heaven is gained? Why do the Angels particpate in God's plan and we do not?

Now I haven't said we aren't saved by grace through faith. But once done what then??? I'm not suggesting we police anything. Why can't we please God as faithful children once we're saved? Its not a matter of gaining salvation but living it out. And in your view where does sanctification come into play?

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust in the Lord

Romans 4:5
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

 

[Dr. Walter]

So basically said we are just as useless after salvation as we were before salvation. Theoretically speaking. God wants to do nothing through us. God has nothing for us to do. God is not pleased when we do his will? Is that the summation of your point?

So even after salvation there is no reward for the things we do? No crowns to cast before the Lords feet? Hmmm. If we are truly dung covered with snow after salvation whats the point?

Do I carry my sin into heaven? Will I be no more than an invited guest at a dinner table once heaven is gained? Why do the Angels particpate in God's plan and we do not?

Now I haven't said we aren't saved by grace through faith. But once done what then??? I'm not suggesting we police anything. Why can't we please God as faithful children once we're saved? Its not a matter of gaining salvation but living it out. And in your view where does sanctification come into play?

Of course not! Your joy, spiritual growth, rewards, usefulness, testimony are all contingent upon your obedience to Christ, however, none of these things are factors in regard to obtaining salvation, maintaining or obtaing final satisfaction of God's righteous standard for entrance into heaven.

If such things are missing, then you have nothing to assure you that you have been born again and nothing to assure others that your profession is genuine.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Perhaps the following explanation will be helpful. I believe that man is a three fold being comprised of spirit, soul and body. I believe that salvation is designed by God for each aspect and that salvation is found in three tenses, past, present and future.

The past tense refers to the salvation of the spirit of man - regeneration/conversion/justification and is a done deal that obtains entrance into heaven.

The present tense "being saved" refers to the soul of man and the word "soul" is translated "life" as well and this refers to progressive sanctification which is never finished until the immaterial aspects of man leaves his body or glorification of the body.

The future tense "shall be saved" refers to the glorification of the body and removal of the fleshly nature.

Now, the problem most people have is with the present tense apsect which has to do with you soul/life. The Greek term "psueche" is translated both "soul" (inclusive of the heart, mind and will) and "life" because as a man thinketh in his heart SO IS HE. That is what you set your soul upon is the product of your daily life as you do and act how you feel, think and will.

Now, there is one aspect of your salvation that can be lost - your life. Paul says redeem the "time" and you do that by being filled or under the control of the Spirit so that "time" lived is SAVED or made to COUNT for the glory of God and therefore is saved in the form of rewards. At all times you are either under the control of the Spirit or the flesh. What's done in the flesh is wasted, lost, forever. You can also lose your physical life due to sin. However, the soul cannot be lost. It is the product of the soul - your daily life or the expression of the soul - your daily life that can be saved and lost. That is why Christ said he that loses his life (psueche) shall save it and he that saveth his soul (psueche) shall lose it. What can be lost? rewards, joy, blessings, growth, time, energy, usefulness, etc.

The human spirit is the seat of our other world consciousness
The human soul is the seat of self consciousness
the Human body is the seat of world consciousness.

 

[webdog]

Perhaps the following explanation will be helpful. I believe that man is a three fold being comprised of spirit, soul and body. I believe that salvation is designed by God for each aspect and that salvation is found in three tenses, past, present and future.

The past tense refers to the salvation of the spirit of man - regeneration/conversion/justification and is a done deal that obtains entrance into heaven.

The present tense "being saved" refers to the soul of man and the word "soul" is translated "life" as well and this refers to progressive sanctification which is never finished until the immaterial aspects of man leaves his body or glorification of the body.

The future tense "shall be saved" refers to the glorification of the body and removal of the fleshly nature.

Now, the problem most people have is with the present tense apsect which has to do with you soul/life. The Greek term "psueche" is translated both "soul" (inclusive of the heart, mind and will) and "life" because as a man thinketh in his heart SO IS HE. That is what you set your soul upon is the product of your daily life as you do and act how you feel, think and will.

Now, there is one aspect of your salvation that can be lost - your life. Paul says redeem the "time" and you do that by being filled or under the control of the Spirit so that "time" lived is SAVED or made to COUNT for the glory of God and therefore is saved in the form of rewards. At all times you are either under the control of the Spirit or the flesh. What's done in the flesh is wasted, lost, forever. You can also lose your physical life due to sin. However, the soul cannot be lost. It is the product of the soul - your daily life or the expression of the soul - your daily life that can be saved and lost. That is why Christ said he that loses his life (psueche) shall save it and he that saveth his soul (psueche) shall lose it. What can be lost? rewards, joy, blessings, growth, time, energy, usefulness, etc.

The human spirit is the seat of our other world consciousness
The human soul is the seat of self consciousness
the Human body is the seat of world consciousness.

Are you saying you have built your entire soteriological view on whether man is tri or bipartite? Isn't that dangerous to build theology on a view that is not concrete? What if you are wrong and man is bipartite (what I believe...soul and spirit are used interchangeably in Scripture)?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Are you saying you have built your entire soteriological view on whether man is tri or bipartite?

Of course not! However, the trichotomy of man fully substantiates my view of salvation and I have carefully considered and rejected the dichotomy position. Man is comprised of two basic elements - spiritual and material but that is about where the dichotomist truth begins and ends. Both soul and spirit are spiritual in essence and so arguing that there are sins of the spirit does not refer to the spirit aspect of man's "spiritual" nature but to the "soul."

The three tenses of salvation also support it. The three basic divisions of soterioligical applications support it (regeneration; progressive sanctification and glorification).

 

[webdog]

Of course not! However, the trichotomy of man fully substantiates my view of salvation and I have carefully considered and rejected the dichotomy position. Man is comprised of two basic elements - spiritual and material but that is about where the dichotomist truth begins and ends. Both soul and spirit are spiritual in essence and so arguing that there are sins of the spirit does not refer to the spirit aspect of man's "spiritual" nature but to the "soul."

The three tenses of salvation also support it. The three basic divisions of soterioligical applications support it (regeneration; progressive sanctification and glorification).

Here is what you said: "I believe that man is a three fold being comprised of spirit, soul and body. I believe that salvation is designed by God for each aspect and that salvation is found in three tenses, past, present and future."

That sounds like you are saying salvation was designed for man's body, soul and spirit. I reject the tripartite view of man using the very Scripture you use to support it...so like I stated, it is dangerous to build your soteriological view on a doctrine with holes in it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Here is what you said: "I believe that man is a three fold being comprised of spirit, soul and body. I believe that salvation is designed by God for each aspect and that salvation is found in three tenses, past, present and future."

That sounds like you are saying salvation was designed for man's body, soul and spirit. I reject the tripartite view of man using the very Scripture you use to support it...so like I stated, it is dangerous to build your soteriological view on a doctrine with holes in it.

I did say that and I did mean it. However, there is more supportive evidence for it. You may reject it but that proves nothing unless you can demonstrate it is wrong. It seems to me it is only dangerous if you can prove it is wrong. I am open to your best shots. I have done my homework

 

[MB]

Which doctrine do you believe? No comment necessary, but by all means feel free to....

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

I'm monergistic.

I would say that I'm monergistic except I do not agree with Calvinism. Most monergist are Calvinist. I believe God does it all. However man can and does rebel. I don't believe man has an inability but I do believe man doesn't seek God on His own. I believe we are drawn and called. Most people will listen to an free offer. If they listen, (and they can listen) with interest they may become convinced being convinced brings conviction and together they can take the man to his knees in submission to the righteousness of God. This all the work of God. There is no regeneration before Salvation this is unbiblical. Regeneration is Salvation it's also Justification.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I would say that I'm monergistic except I do not agree with Calvinism. Most monergist are Calvinist. I believe God does it all. However man can and does rebel. I don't believe man has an inability but I do believe man doesn't seek God on His own. I believe we are drawn and called. Most people will listen to an free offer. If they listen, (and they can listen) with interest they may become convinced being convinced brings conviction and together they can take the man to his knees in submission to the righteousness of God. This all the work of God. There is no regeneration before Salvation this is unbiblical. Regeneration is Salvation it's also Justification.

Would you consider the words "neither indeed can be" as indicative of inability (Rom. 8:7)? Would you consider the words "neither can he know them" as indicative of inability (1 Cor. 2:14)?

Salvation is a pretty broad unbrella term that is inclusive of various aspects that are time restricted. For example there is a past tense salvation, a present tense and a future tense. Therefore, they are not one and the same but they all fit under the general unbrella term of "salvation."

The same is true with regeneration versus justification versus sanctification versus glorification. They all fit under the general unbrella term of "salvation' but they are not one and the same nor occur at one and the same time. It should be obvious that glorification does not occur at the same time of regeneration. Hence, they are different in time and in character and yet all of these things do fit under the general unbrella term of "salvation."

I would encourage you to study the distinctions of these various aspects. I think if you study them carefully you will see that regeneration has to do with a change of nature whereas justification has to do with a change of legal position before God. The first has to do with spiritual life whereas the latter has to do with legal life. By legal life, I mean that by faith you have trusted in the substitutionary Person and work of Jesus Christ and because of that God has justified you or declared you not guilty - free from legal condemnation by the law unto death - but subject to the reward of the law unto life. By regeneration you are birthed into the family of God but by justification you are made legal sons by adoption.

 

[Rippon]

What if you are wrong and man is bipartite (what I believe...soul and spirit are used interchangeably in Scripture)?

I'm with Webdog (huh?) on this particular issue. From my understanding of Scripture people are bipartite. I say this even though my hero,A.W.Pink, had Dr.Walter's view.

I don't want to derail the thread on this specific subject. I might revive a thread on it if need be.

But,Dr.Walter, you are an excellent Bible teacher. I agree with most of what you have posted on a variety of subjects. I am content to read and not comment most of the time.

 

[kyredneck]

Isaiah 14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.​

.........contrast with:

....My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to accomplish his work. Jn 4

.....my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Jn 5

For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Jn 6

 

[kyredneck]

Salvation is in Jesus Christ and nothing more or less. God chopse men to deliver the message of salvation. That is and was God's plan from eternity past to eternity future.

This is the problem with failing to make a clear distinction between Eternal Salvation [the birth from above] and Gospel [time] Salvation, i.e. the effectual call vs. the gospel call. Please suffer me to amplify your post in this manner:

“[Eternal] Salvation is in Jesus Christ and nothing more or less. God chose men to deliver the message of [Gospel] salvation. That is and was God's plan from eternity past to eternity future.”

....Once saved are we not particpant in God's plan of salvation for others?

Again, are you referring to the heavenly birth or to the deliverance in this time world that comes from obeying the gospel? The former is monergistic and is a one time event. The latter is synergistic and is an ongoing affair throughout the believer's earthly life.

The mission of the Church is to feed the sheep. The Church does not make sheep.

"Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood."

".........Feed my lambs.......Tend my sheep.......Feed my sheep..."

"Tend the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not of constraint, but willingly, according to the will of God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;.."

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is the problem with failing to make a clear distinction between Eternal Salvation [the birth from above] and Gospel [time] Salvation, i.e. the effectual call vs. the gospel call. Please suffer me to amplify your post in this manner:

“[Eternal] Salvation is in Jesus Christ and nothing more or less. God chose men to deliver the message of [Gospel] salvation. That is and was God's plan from eternity past to eternity future.”



Again, are you referring to the heavenly birth or to the deliverance in this time world that comes from obeying the gospel? The former is monergistic and is a one time event. The latter is synergistic and is an ongoing affair throughout the believer's earthly life.

The mission of the Church is to feed the sheep. The Church does not make sheep.

"Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood."

".........Feed my lambs.......Tend my sheep.......Feed my sheep..."

I pretty much indicated as much with what I said in post 139. I quote what I said here

I think you have a hard time following because I've allowed for an element of time and progression to be introduced. I think you see salvation limited to only legal definitions where things are only legally binding. Rather than legally binding to then being something in "truth". Thus if I am declared righteous by God's will then there is a point which I am righteous in truth. I am not a (as Martin Luther would put it) Dung covered in snow but once declared righteous will be righteous indeed. Philipians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. and Eph 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I think your still in the discussion of "getting saved". Once saved then what? The time element. Having been declared righteous do we stay dung? What of Hebrews 6:1-9 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. - (Instead) -we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. And to Hebrews 9 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

 

[kyredneck]

Wouldn't that depend on the patient's will to live? If they have a DNR that injection is not only a gift, but illegal.

"Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? or is thine eye evil, because I am good?"

 

[kyredneck]

I pretty much indicated as much with what I said in post 139. I quote what I said here

OK TS. Sorry. Thanks.

 

[webdog]

"Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? or is thine eye evil, because I am good?"

That doesn't address HD's "gift" analogy that I was going off of.

 

[webdog]

The same is true with regeneration versus justification versus sanctification versus glorification.

That's four parts, and if you hold to salvation being for each part of man (tripartite), which one is left off in your model?

 

[Dr. Walter]

That's four parts, and if you hold to salvation being for each part of man (tripartite), which one is left off in your model?

There are much more than merely four parts but all parts can be neatly placed in one of three time zones (past completed action; present ongoing action and future contemplated action).

Each aspect of the Human nature is involved in all three time zones. What is born of Spirit = regeneration but yet inseparable from regeneration of the human spirit is also the conversion of the human soul (mind, emotions, will) which includes the profession from the mouth or the body - All these are past completed actions of salvation.

At this point of completed action salvation procedes a progressive salvation from the inward new man (spirit) (Rom. 7:22; Col. 3:10) which is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit in our being as it has been washed and cleasned from sin (I Jn. 3:9 ). This renewed image in man - the spirit - is what we "put on" or "walk in" or "live in" in regard to the affections, mind and will of the soul and seen in the actions of our bodies. Our spirit bears witness with His Spirit but our souls need to "put on" this new man in our thinking, feeling and willing if we are to have daily victory. All of this is progressive and never completed until glorification.

In the future, if we are alive at His coming our soul and body will be transformed in the removal of sin and its consequences. If we suffer physical death before the coming of the Lord then our immaterial spirit consisting of spirit and soul will enter heaven and be clothed upon by a heavenly garment waiting for reunion with a glorified body at the resurrection.