Salvation is neversaid to bebecause of faith
it is always said to be by,or through faith. Faith which is the gift of God.
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What Side Of The Fence Are You?
- Thread starter kyredneck
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Salvation is neversaid to bebecause of faith
it is always said to be by,or through faith. Faith which is the gift of God.
If you are dying of cancer, and I walk up and inject you with a cure, without asking you, it is still a gift, whether you acknowledge it or not.
That doesn't seem to be the way it works in this passage:
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
HankD
HankD
Hank, don't you think that those that have been blessed with ears to hear, or made to hunger and thirst after righteousness have already recieved the gift and are then able to drink of the water of life freely? (you know, dead men do nothing)
That is indeed possible. Though, if I were a fatalist, I would say that the predispositioning of the "whosoever wills" happened somewhere in the metaphysical past before they even showed up here on planet earth - if that makes any sense.
As for dead men, don't forget that Lazarus was dead as the proverbial door-nail (4 days and "stinketh") when Christ called him (with a loud voice) from the dead. While I certainly believe that this was an historical and actual event it seems to me to make an allegorical statement concerning the dead in trespasses and sins.
Personally, I am neither of calvin or armnius not because I am better than either of them or their following but because I am just not sure.
There are Scriptures which can be inerpreted either way.
And yes, there are counter-points and counter-counter-points but all of it smacks not just of divisiveness but "strivings which are uprofitable and vain".
Personally, my own "bottom line" is that salvation is a mutual consent thing. It seems to me from the Scripture that we come into this world somewhat predisposed to either love the light or the darkness and are content to stay that way. Those who love the light eventually come to the light.
The details of the where and when and how that consent and predispositioning came about is not fully revealed
Therefore I try not to delve into the details of what I consider those things which He works "after the counsel of his own will".
History has shown that both calvinians and arminians have preached an effective message of salvation by grace through faith in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of eternal life.
I am content with that thought and normally avoid these threads.
HankD
If my belief in the absolute sovereignty of God makes me a 'fatalist' or a 'hyper' in the eyes of some, then so be it.
That word was directed at myself. I haven't yet labeled myself a fatalist but if I do, like you, I would be willing to accept the consequence in terms of other people.
RE: Absolute Sovereignty:
Here are two statements:
God absolutely controls every action in the universe or not.
God absolutely causes every action in the universe or not.
If He controls but does not cause then one can make a case against "absolute sovereignty".
If He absolutely causes everything then He has caused "sin".
Personally I can say that God has absolute control over every action in the universe. But, I can't go down the "cause" road which to me seems a necessary ingredient to "absolute sovereignty".
So, if control does not imply cause, then logically it would seem that someone or something has acted outside and/or against the will of God.
Somewhere "free will" has to come into the equation of the absolute sovereignty of God or He becomes the author of sin.
Do you agree?
If so, where do you put it (free will)?
If not, how do you personally explain the origin and authorship of sin?
Not a trick question, just curious.
HankD
Wouldn't that depend on the patient's will to live? If they have a DNR that injection is not only a gift, but illegal.
Thank you.
I cannot explain it. Neither can anyone else. But this I do believe. I've heard it preached and am in agreement. When this world of sin and woe is over and done with, when time is no more; every creature in the universe will know, there will be no doubt; there can only be ONE will.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Sin
Ezekiel 28:
12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [Or lapis lazuli ] turquoise and beryl. [The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain. ]
Your settings and mountings [The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain.] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:
12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [Or lapis lazuli ] turquoise and beryl. [The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain. ]
Your settings and mountings [The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain.] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
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Ultimately that is true, but there will have been a multitude of defeated conflicting wills along the way.
e.g.
Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
We are still in that process.
But we keep trying anyway (smiley).
HankD
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I would be glad to answer once I understand the implications of each title.
Dr. Walter
New Member
The human will is what needs to be saved and I have a news flash for you, it cannot save itself nor can it ever be saved. It is in slavery to a fleshly nature (heart/mind) so depraved that Paul says even as a saved man "there is NOTHING good in my flesh" and the "will" of the flesh continues to operate as an unchangable "law" which even a saved man has no power to over power its "will" for sin:
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
The only way that even a saved man can overpower the "will" of the fleshly nature is by the Sovereign will power of God - "For it is God that worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure" (Philip. 2:13).
There is no salvation for the "will of the flesh" but God gives ANOTHER NEW HEART with a new "will to do good" (Deut. 29:4; Ezek. 36:26-27). However, the new heart with the new "will" is powerless to overcome the will of the flesh.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The Spirit of God ALONE without any aide whatsoever from the elect creates the new heart with a NEW WILL that battles against the will of the fleshly heart/mind and which works cooperatively with the Holy Spirit in defeating the will of the flesh.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Therefore, the distinction between the saved and lost is not the fleshly nature and its will for sin. The difference is that the saved man has a dual nature and the additional new nature predominates the mind ("the law of the mind") even though it has no power to overule the will of the flesh ("the law of the flesh"). The lost man lives "walks" and is totally controlled by the "mind" of the flesh. The saved man is not totally controlled by the "mind" or will of the flesh but the new nature predominately controls the mind and is thus spiritually minded and as empowered by the Spirit "walks after the Spirit." Remember, Paul said "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." The saved mind predominately "minds" the things of the Spirit:
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The lost man is wholly and totally "in the flesh" and predominated by the law of sin whereas the saved man is "in the Spirit" simply because he has a NEW "inward man" born of the Spirit that predominately minds the things of the Spirit and is victorious over the flesh when empowered by the Spirit:
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Willingness to be free from the power of sin must be created by God and even when God gives a new heart with a willingness to be free from sin it is powerless to overpower the will of the flesh. The will of the fleshly nature is never destroyed until the body dies and it is only subdued progressively and partially from the new birth until death or glorification.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
The only way that even a saved man can overpower the "will" of the fleshly nature is by the Sovereign will power of God - "For it is God that worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure" (Philip. 2:13).
There is no salvation for the "will of the flesh" but God gives ANOTHER NEW HEART with a new "will to do good" (Deut. 29:4; Ezek. 36:26-27). However, the new heart with the new "will" is powerless to overcome the will of the flesh.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The Spirit of God ALONE without any aide whatsoever from the elect creates the new heart with a NEW WILL that battles against the will of the fleshly heart/mind and which works cooperatively with the Holy Spirit in defeating the will of the flesh.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Therefore, the distinction between the saved and lost is not the fleshly nature and its will for sin. The difference is that the saved man has a dual nature and the additional new nature predominates the mind ("the law of the mind") even though it has no power to overule the will of the flesh ("the law of the flesh"). The lost man lives "walks" and is totally controlled by the "mind" of the flesh. The saved man is not totally controlled by the "mind" or will of the flesh but the new nature predominately controls the mind and is thus spiritually minded and as empowered by the Spirit "walks after the Spirit." Remember, Paul said "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." The saved mind predominately "minds" the things of the Spirit:
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The lost man is wholly and totally "in the flesh" and predominated by the law of sin whereas the saved man is "in the Spirit" simply because he has a NEW "inward man" born of the Spirit that predominately minds the things of the Spirit and is victorious over the flesh when empowered by the Spirit:
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Willingness to be free from the power of sin must be created by God and even when God gives a new heart with a willingness to be free from sin it is powerless to overpower the will of the flesh. The will of the fleshly nature is never destroyed until the body dies and it is only subdued progressively and partially from the new birth until death or glorification.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Nobody that I know of denies that the word of God is the sword of the Spirit and thus instrumental in the salvation of the elect (Rom. 10). However, Romans 10 is found in the context of Romans 9-11 and you cannot just rip it out of that context and disregard the electing grace of God in connection with the instrumental use found in Romans 10.
What I see is very odd is that everyone likes to use Roman 10 in regard to personal salvation but then divorce it from Romans 9 and Romans 11 in regard to personal salvation of both the Jews and the gentiles:
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? - Rom. 9:24
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.........As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes... - Rom. 11:5-6, 28
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
How do these terms apply to this consept.
Once saved. Can you please God by the things you do? If we are adopted heirs will God say to us "Well done!" as he said of his son "this is my son in whom I am well pleased".
If I can bring it down on a personal level. My children that obey me and please me I value every effort. However, no matter how much the Neighbor kid does for me I will never be as pleased as I am with the little my children do?
Once saved are we not particpant in God's plan of salvation for others?
Once saved. Can you please God by the things you do? If we are adopted heirs will God say to us "Well done!" as he said of his son "this is my son in whom I am well pleased".
If I can bring it down on a personal level. My children that obey me and please me I value every effort. However, no matter how much the Neighbor kid does for me I will never be as pleased as I am with the little my children do?
Once saved are we not particpant in God's plan of salvation for others?
Dr. Walter
New Member
My friend, your thinking is very difficult to follow! We have been adopted into God's family and we have been born into God's family. The new birth precedes adoption. The first is a birth while the second is legal and positional. We are children of God by new birth and we are sons of God by adoption.
God looks at us through His Son and sees the completed satisfaction of Christ as our satisfaction and so in regard to JUSTIFICATION He can say of every child of God EXACTLY what He can say of His own Son - "this is my son in whom I am well please."
However, neighbors (Satan) children are neither born of the Spirit or adopted legally and therefore are still in their sins.
We are participants in God's plan of redemption of the elect (Rom. 10:14-16). God told Paul " For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." Ac 18:10
Paul told the Corinthians that he was their instrumental "father" in bringing about their salvation:
1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I think you have a hard time following because I've allowed for an element of time and progression to be introduced. I think you see salvation limited to only legal definitions where things are only legally binding. Rather than legally binding to then being something in "truth". Thus if I am declared righteous by God's will then there is a point which I am righteous in truth. I am not a (as Martin Luther would put it) Dung covered in snow but once declared righteous will be righteous indeed. Philipians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. and Eph 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
I think your still in the discussion of "getting saved". Once saved then what? The time element. Having been declared righteous do we stay dung? What of Hebrews 6:1-9 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. - (Instead) -we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. And to Hebrews 9 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!
Dr. Walter
New Member
We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone WITHOUT WORKS - period. No human being is capable before or after regeneration/conversion/justification/adoption to measure up to God's standard of righteousness so it is the "ungodly" who is justified (Rom. 4:5).
Now, if we want to be "fruit" inspectors then those who profess to be saved must demonstrate it by their works or else there is no evidence they have been changed. However, not all "fruit" of righteous works demonstrate a person has been saved (Mt. 7:21-23). There are many personally nice, kind, thoughtful, religiously minded doer's of righteousness that profess Christ that have never been born again and are just as lost as the devil (Jn. 8:30,44).
Another problem for fruit inspectors is that of spiritual growth, limited measures of grace and faith (Rom. 12:3,5).
The bottom line is that no man measures up to the standard of the Law before or after salvation as no man is without sin (1 Jn. 1:8-10). However, if you want others to believe you have been saved, and if you want personal assurance you are saved, and if you want to experience the joy and blessings of the Lord and want to grow spiritually in knowledge and grace than "keep my commandments."
You or I may decide someone is lost due to errors in their profession, doctrine or lifestyle but we are not the final judge of the soul. Lot did not exhibit the kind of fruit that professed salvation, however, when compared in contrast to the ungodliness of Sodomites he was a jewel in comparison. If we did not have Peter's words that he was a saved man we would not have gathered it by the evidence left in the Old Testament as the last word we have is drunkenesss and incest with his daughters. Solomon lived the latter part of his life in less than a desired condition.
Sinlessness is never the "fruit" of genuine salvation but a changed attitude toward sin even that in Romans 7:14-125 is such a fruit, although much of that struggle is INTERNAL and UNSEEN by human eyes.
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