What Side Of The Fence Are You?

[Thinkingstuff]

This is the aspect I'm interested in from your above statement

progressive salvation

What happens during this stage?

 

[Dr. Walter]

This is the aspect I'm interested in from your above statement What happens during this stage?

The present tense stage of salvation is a battle ground for your soul/life. There is the inward battle between indwelling sin which has been driven out of the human spirit by the washing and renewing power of the Holy Spirit. The human spirit is where the indwelling Spirit resides in man's nature. In Romans 7:14-25 the two warring factions are identified as laws whereas the soul or personality of Paul is represented by the pronoun "I" who is stuck between these two laws. The battle ground is control of the soul.

The goal of the soul/life is found in Luke 10:27

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind;

1. Here the Heart" emphasizes the emotions (loves and hates)
2. Here the term "soul" refers to the expressed life
3. Here the term "strength" refers to the energy of the will in expressing that life
4. Here the term "mind" refers to the intellect and thinking

This is done by "putting on" the inward man in the soul (mind, heart, will) by the power of the Holy Spirit so that it is expressed in your life (revealed attitudes, words and actions). When this is accomplished the time controlled by the Spirit is redeemed, made to count for the glory of God (Eph. 5:17). The visible evidence is submission to God's will (Eph. 5:18-22).

What is obtained is joy, peace of God, witness, rewards, usefulness, influence, etc.

When indwelling sin rules the soul of man (his thinking, emotions and willing) what is lost is all the above.

Being filled with the Holy Spirit is the key to success and victory. However, no one but Christ had the fullness of the Spirit and all others have a measure of grace and faith and this is progressive with many battles and defeats but the war is already decided by Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The present tense stage of salvation is a battle ground for your soul/life. There is the inward battle between indwelling sin which has been driven out of the human spirit by the washing and renewing power of the Holy Spirit. The human spirit is where the indwelling Spirit resides in man's nature. In Romans 7:14-25 the two warring factions are identified as laws whereas the soul or personality of Paul is represented by the pronoun "I" who is stuck between these two laws. The battle ground is control of the soul.

The goal of the soul/life is found in Luke 10:27

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind;

1. Here the Heart" emphasizes the emotions (loves and hates)
2. Here the term "soul" refers to the expressed life
3. Here the term "strength" refers to the energy of the will in expressing that life
4. Here the term "mind" refers to the intellect and thinking

This is done by "putting on" the inward man in the soul (mind, heart, will) by the power of the Holy Spirit so that it is expressed in your life (revealed attitudes, words and actions). When this is accomplished the time controlled by the Spirit is redeemed, made to count for the glory of God (Eph. 5:17). The visible evidence is submission to God's will (Eph. 5:18-22).

What is obtained is joy, peace of God, witness, rewards, usefulness, influence, etc.

When indwelling sin rules the soul of man (his thinking, emotions and willing) what is lost is all the above.

Being filled with the Holy Spirit is the key to success and victory. However, no one but Christ had the fullness of the Spirit and all others have a measure of grace and faith and this is progressive with many battles and defeats but the war is already decided by Christ.

I agree entirely with your statement here. And I will mention again we are specifying a particular stage of Christian development or stage of salvation working in us. Now when you speak like this how do you deal with people claiming you are holding to a "works" based faith?

 

[Dr. Walter]

I agree entirely with your statement here. And I will mention again we are specifying a particular stage of Christian development or stage of salvation working in us. Now when you speak like this how do you deal with people claiming you are holding to a "works" based faith?

I tell them that I am justified by grace alone in Christ alone through faith alone without works but not by a faith that is alone (Heb. 6:9). In other words we have a salvation without works but a salvation that does work (Philip. 1:6; 2:13).

Progressive sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit and it is by grace. Where there is no progressive sanctification by the Holy Spirit there is no regeneration and justification because we are "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works which God before ordained that we should walk in."

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I tell them that I am justified by grace alone in Christ alone through faith alone without works but not by a faith that is alone (Heb. 6:9). In other words we have a salvation without works but a salvation that does work (Philip. 1:6; 2:13).

Progressive sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit and it is by grace. Where there is no progressive sanctification by the Holy Spirit there is no regeneration and justification because we are "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works which God before ordained that we should walk in."

I believe the same thing. Unfortunately, this always gets in the way of those who miss the significance of what we are saying in regard to this and fall back on initiating salvation again.

 

[MB]

Hi Dr Walter;
You asked;

Would you consider the words "neither indeed can be" as indicative of inability (Rom. 8:7)? Would you consider the words "neither can he know them" as indicative of inability (1 Cor. 2:14)?

What does these verses have to do with man's ability to hear and understand. There are lot's of thing men can't do. The inability I was speaking of is the false belief that man cannot respond to the gospel. Man can hear and understand. He can also see and preceive This inability is not supported by scripture. And you keep dodging it

Salvation is a pretty broad unbrella term that is inclusive of various aspects that are time restricted. For example there is a past tense salvation, a present tense and a future tense. Therefore, they are not one and the same but they all fit under the general unbrella term of "salvation."

Just where would all this be found in scripture? I'd really like to see it because this sounds like "being saved" as opposed to "saved". We are saved or we aren't there is no middle ground. The moment we believe, repent and submit, to His righteousness we are saved. When Paul told the Jailer how to be saved it was simple. He told him to believe on Jesus Christ and he would be saved.

The same is true with regeneration versus justification versus sanctification versus glorification. They all fit under the general unbrella term of "salvation' but they are not one and the same nor occur at one and the same time. It should be obvious that glorification does not occur at the same time of regeneration. Hence, they are different in time and in character and yet all of these things do fit under the general unbrella term of "salvation."

I disagree because once we are justified we are saved, Sanctification is growing towards the likeness of Christ. And Glorification is our reward.
There is no three steps to it. There is no partial Salvation. Justified is saved completely.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I would encourage you to study the distinctions of these various aspects. I think if you study them carefully you will see that regeneration has to do with a change of nature whereas justification has to do with a change of legal position before God. The first has to do with spiritual life whereas the latter has to do with legal life. By legal life, I mean that by faith you have trusted in the substitutionary Person and work of Jesus Christ and because of that God has justified you or declared you not guilty - free from legal condemnation by the law unto death - but subject to the reward of the law unto life. By regeneration you are birthed into the family of God but by justification you are made legal sons by adoption.

This is where you fail the test. By taking a simple term namely "saved" and rationalizing it to death. None of what you claim here is Biblical and most of all it's obviously an exaggeration of a concept out of focus. The only change in regeneration is rebirth they both by the way mean exactly the same thing. The change of heart you want to claim is regeneration is actually repentance. The two are not the same. Though both are granted by God. You want regeneration to help support the false theory of man's inability to hear and understand. Total depravity in other words.
We cannot have regeneration with out faith because regenerated means to be saved.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
No Faith, no grace. No Grace, No saved.
MB

 

[Dr. Walter]

Where you and I are missing each other on this subject is that you understand "hearing" and "perceiving" and "seeing" as physical capabilities sufficient for dealing with spiritual things.

If natural born humans possessed the physical and mental capabilities for "hearing...seeing...perceiving" spiritual things then why does God say the following words to those who abundantly heard, saw and claimed to perceive a mass of Biblical revelation from God:

Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. - Deut. 29:4

If as you say, all humans already possess the ability to perceive, eyes to see and ears to hear spiritual things then why does God necessarily infer here that they do not have such abilities until he gives them such a heart? They obviously had physical ears and eyes and had a mind to perceive some things?

Why would he say the following about the same people if they possessed such a heart already?


O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

This is why we are missing each other. I do not deny that all my have physical capabilities to operate in the physical world. I simply deny they have essential spiritual capabilities to deal with essential spiritual realities. If I am wrong then explain these two scriptures? I could have given multitudes of scriptures that teach the same thing that support my original giving of Romans 8:7 and 1 Cor. 2;14

I am not going any further than these texts because they fully represent the foundational problem in our discussion.

Hi Dr Walter;
You asked;

What does these verses have to do with man's ability to hear and understand. There are lot's of thing men can't do. The inability I was speaking of is the false belief that man cannot respond to the gospel. Man can hear and understand. He can also see and preceive This inability is not supported by scripture. And you keep dodging it

Just where would all this be found in scripture? I'd really like to see it because this sounds like "being saved" as opposed to "saved". We are saved or we aren't there is no middle ground. The moment we believe, repent and submit, to His righteousness we are saved. When Paul told the Jailer how to be saved it was simple. He told him to believe on Jesus Christ and he would be saved.


I disagree because once we are justified we are saved, Sanctification is growing towards the likeness of Christ. And Glorification is our reward.
There is no three steps to it. There is no partial Salvation. Justified is saved completely.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


This is where you fail the test. By taking a simple term namely "saved" and rationalizing it to death. None of what you claim here is Biblical and most of all it's obviously an exaggeration of a concept out of focus. The only change in regeneration is rebirth they both by the way mean exactly the same thing. The change of heart you want to claim is regeneration is actually repentance. The two are not the same. Though both are granted by God. You want regeneration to help support the false theory of man's inability to hear and understand. Total depravity in other words.
We cannot have regeneration with out faith because regenerated means to be saved.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
No Faith, no grace. No Grace, No saved.
MB

 

[MB]

Where you and I are missing each other on this subject is that you understand "hearing" and "perceiving" and "seeing" as physical capabilities sufficient for dealing with spiritual things.

Actually we miss each other on several points and not just this one. Man is a spiritual being he simply cannot live with a dead spirit. Our spirits are considered dead when we don't have Christ. That doesn't mean actually dead. You quote or refference 1st cor 2:14 to support you point here and it doesn't support it. 1st Cor 2 teaches about the deeper things of God. Not man's inability to hear or understand. The gospel is not the deeper things of God but is what we all must believe inorder to be saved.
Other wise Christ would not have instructed the disciples to preach the gospel to the whole world. No one understands the deeper things of God completely. Something about looking through a dark glass.

If natural born humans possessed the physical and mental capabilities for "hearing...seeing...perceiving" spiritual things then why does God say the following words to those who abundantly heard, saw and claimed to perceive a mass of Biblical revelation from God:

Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. - Deut. 29:4

This isn't all that complicated. It's called unbelief. There willing rejection of what was obvious to those in the wilderness. Seems a lot of Jews stumbled around because of unbelief. Certainly If I was being cared for despite the odds of surviving such a trek in such a manner as these and still didn't believe. I wouldn't deserve understanding. Yet this was for those of that time it does not say this was for all man. Here again;
Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
This isn't addressed to all man through all time. It was addressed to the Jews. There blindness for the most part still exsist. So does there unbelief. These are God chosen people they have experinced the miracles of the Lord and still are experincing them but still they don't believe. Mind boggling isn't it?

If as you say, all humans already possess the ability to perceive, eyes to see and ears to hear spiritual things then why does God necessarily infer here that they do not have such abilities until he gives them such a heart? They obviously had physical ears and eyes and had a mind to perceive some things?

Every man can understand the gospel and if they listen to the messenger long enough they become convinced of the gospel.

Look when a Jailer asked Paul and silias how to be saved. Paul simply told him to believe in Jesus Christ. and He would be. He didn't say you already are because you came seeking how to find God. He didn't say well you have to be regenerated first so you can understand, did he? Yet this is what Calvinist claim is the case.

The reason for the prophecy for this to happen to the Jews was also so that those in unbelief could have their branches broken off of the fig tree and Gentile branches could be grafted in. There were a few Romans who began to believe because they weren't blinded. Still this is only part of the reason.
They were also blinded so they couldn't believe until the things they must believe in had taken place. Which is why I don't believe the disciples were saved until after the resurrection and they could see the scars from the cross. Sure they believed what Christ said at the time. Peter even believed He is the Son of God. How ever we must believe that He came ,died for our sins and rose from the dead on the third day of His death. This was something that was prophesized. Prophecy doesn't save us nor does it wash away our sin. Only the actual atonement could wash away our sin. Therefore no one was saved until the new covenant had been established.
This hearing and understanding isn't the only things I disagree about with Calvinism yet I'm not saying there isn't anything in Calvinism I believe in.
I believe there are many Calvinist who are really my brothers and sisters in the Lord because most do believe in the gospel.

Today's men and women; Gentiles like myself don't believe because of there rebellion and if a man doesn't hear it when it's preached to him it's because he doesn't want to hear it.

Why would he say the following about the same people if they possessed such a heart already?


O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

This is why we are missing each other. I do not deny that all my have physical capabilities to operate in the physical world. I simply deny they have essential spiritual capabilities to deal with essential spiritual realities. If I am wrong then explain these two scriptures? I could have given multitudes of scriptures that teach the same thing that support my original giving of Romans 8:7 and 1 Cor. 2;14

I am not going any further than these texts because they fully represent the foundational problem in our discussion.

I've given you my explanation of these passages above and I'm sure you can quote several passages that you believe support this portion of total depravity. Any number of men can do the same but you still haven't shown even one verse that specifically states God cannot convince a man of the truth with out regeneration. You still haven't shown where any dictionary says that regeneration is defined as an opening of the mind so that man can understand. It just seems to me that your definition of regeneration is a misunderstanding of the word it self.

Your definition of our being chosen leaves Christ completely out of the picture. You've even partially quoted Eph 1:4 as "
"He has chosen us before the foundation of the world". When actually it says;
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I firmly believe in Jesus Christ I love Him more than anything in my life Nothing is more important to me than Jesus and His Word. When I read it I don't interpret it I let God explain it to me. Christ invited every man to come to Him;
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
He chose all of us when He said this invitation.
MB

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are right, we miss each other in many areas. If a man was physically dead he could not operate in the physical sphere because he is physically dead. If a person is spiritually dead they cannot operate in the spiritual sphere because they are spiritually dead. Physical things belong to the physical sphere of life while spiritual things belong to the spiritual sphere of life.

I Corithians 2:14 is very clear and very definitive and very specific.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The "natural" man is that man in verse 12 which has only the spirit of "the world" or "him" in contrast to "us" or "we" in this context. Paul is writing to the Corinthians says that "we" (Christians) in contrast have received the Spirit of God. The "natural" man by context is the unregenerated man WITHOUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
The "natural" man is "of this world" (v. 12) without the Spirit of God and that is precisely why he "recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God." All without the Spirit of God having only the "spirit of the world" are spiritually ead. Therefore spiritual things are "foolishness to him." This is not true of children of God. The "natural" man is incapable of receiving or understanding the things of God "neither can he know them" because he is without the Spirit of God (v. 12) and only has "the spirit of the world." One must first have the Spirit of God in order to discern spiritual things. The natural man is unable to receive or undertand spiritual things because these things are "spiritually discerned." These things cannot be said of true children of God because "we have the Spirit of God" (v. 12).
Do you notice the contrast between "the natural man" or "him" and "we"? Go back to verse 12:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Two classes of people ("we" versus "he"). Two spiritual contrasts "spirit of the world" versus those who "received the Spirit of God." Two spiritual conditions -"we...know" versus "neither can he know". We "have received" versus "the natural man receiveth not."

Finally what you fail to recognize is these two verses teach a cause and effect relationship. One must FIRST receive the Spirit BEFORE they can discern spiritual things. The natural man RECEIVETH NOT and therefore cannot discern spiritual things.

Unbelief is the state of "the natural man" and will continue to be the state of the natural man as long as He is without the Spirit of God. Ephesians 1:4 also states a cause and effect relationship. We were chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world for the cause "THAT WE SHOULD BE holy and without blame before him in love." Election is the cause whereas holiness without blame is the consequences just as it is stated in the very same cause and consequence relationship in 2 Thes. 2:13. Just as it is stated in the very same cause and consequence relationship in 1 Thes. 1:4-5 and etc.

Willing unbelief is the state of the "natural man" or the "carnal mind" (Rom. 8:7) without spiritual ability because they do not have the Spirit of God. Romans 8:7-9 demonstrate clearly that Paul has in mind the very same two different classes of mankind. Those who are "in the flesh" versus those who are "in the Spirit." He carefully defines who are those "in the Spirit" in verse 9 to be all who have the Spirit of God indwelling in them. Hence, those referred to as "in the flesh" have only the spirit of the world but do not have the indwelling Spirit of God:


Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So both I Cor. 2:14 and Romans 8:7 in context refer to those who have the "spirit of the world" but neither have the Spirit of God and that is the reason they "receive not the things of God" and that is the reason they are at "enmity with God" and that is the reason they "are not subject to the law of God" and that is the reason the things of God are "foolisness unto him" and that is the reason why "neither can he know them" and that is the reason why "neither indeed can be" because they are "in the flesh" have "the spirit of the world" and are without the Spirit of Christ.

 

[MB]

Hi Dr Walter

In context;
This does not prove regeneration before faith in fact it proves that man is first convinced by the Holy Spirit working through a messenger. What you're teaching here is that an all powerful and Soveregin God isn't able to convince man while in his sinfull state.
Regeneration has nothing to do with opening the mind of man. Opening the mind is convincing the mind to believe in Christ. You teach that man cannot hear and understand. When he can.
Romans 8:7 is about the Law. The Law never saved even one person. I know man has a propensity to sin even after Salvation, because there is no man with out sin.
MB

 

[Skandelon]

Dr. Walter,

Can you explain why Paul in 1 Cor. 2 and 3 goes on to speak of the "brethren" in Corinth as "natural" or "carnal" people who cannot accept his spiritual teachings? If what you have said is correct then how could he speak to them as fellow believers who have placed their faith in Christ but still remain "carnal/natural" men?

1

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The saved man still contains the fallen nature that predominates the lost man. There is no salvation for that fallen nature as it must be destroyed in physical death or in the transformation at the rapture. There is nothing good "in the flesh" or fallen nature (Rom. 7:18).

We (the soul) are always in a state of battle between the fleshly nature and the renewed/regenerated (spirit) inward man. Those in 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 chose to operate after this carnal nature.

For the child of God there are two options but for the lost person there are no options. Yet the "flesh" or "carnal" or "natural" is characteristic of the lost state and a leftover of the lost state in the child of God.

Dr. Walter,

Can you explain why Paul in 1 Cor. 2 and 3 goes on to speak of the "brethren" in Corinth as "natural" or "carnal" people who cannot accept his spiritual teachings? If what you have said is correct then how could he speak to them as fellow believers who have placed their faith in Christ but still remain "carnal/natural" men?

1

 

[Dr. Walter]

First, let me clarify something. I do not believe that regeneration occurs without faith nor faith without regeneration and they are not one and the same. They are in a logical cause and effect relationship.

1 John 5:1 and the word "born" is found in the Greek text in the Aorist tense while the term "beleiveth" is found in the present tense. This is why the KJV used the present tense "is" because of identical action between the verb and participle. Logically the aorist tense "born" precedes the present tense "bellieveth" but grammatically the present tense participle occurs with "born" or identical action. One does not occur without the other but logically life (born) precedes action (beleiveth).

You say that regeneration or giving spiritual life has nothing to do with your mind or heart. However, have you looked at Ephesians 4:18 carefully and compared it to 2 Cor. 4:6??????

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.


These two verses are a description of the lost unregenerated state. To be alienated from "the life of God" is to be spiritual dead. However, note what is it that alienates them from the life of God????

1. "through IGNORANCE that is in them"
2. "because of the BLINDNESS of their heart"

Notice what prefaces this aleination from the life of God

"having their UNDERSTANDING darkened"

Hence, the unregenerated state (separation from the life of God" has to do with MENTAL darkness and HEART ignorance and blindness.

Now look at the reversal of this IGNORANT DARKENED BLINDED condition in 2 Cor. 4:6:

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Notice that Paul is drawing the imagergy for this text from Genesis 1:2-3 where DARKNESS was upon the face of the deep and the creative spoken command of God created light. Notice where speaks this light into existence "shined in our HEARTS."

Notice what the "light" is metaphorical of "light of KNOWLEDGE"." Notice what this light is knowledge of "the glory of God IN THE FACE of Jesus Christ"

From what source does God draw this knowledge and CREATE it within the "heart" of those he saves?

"For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake." - v. 5

God simply takes the preached word and energizes it with His power so that it becomes the creative command of God - 1 Thes. 1:4-5

Hi Dr Walter

In context;
This does not prove regeneration before faith in fact it proves that man is first convinced by the Holy Spirit working through a messenger. What you're teaching here is that an all powerful and Soveregin God isn't able to convince man while in his sinfull state.
Regeneration has nothing to do with opening the mind of man. Opening the mind is convincing the mind to believe in Christ. You teach that man cannot hear and understand. When he can.
Romans 8:7 is about the Law. The Law never saved even one person. I know man has a propensity to sin even after Salvation, because there is no man with out sin.
MB

 

[Skandelon]

The saved man still contains the fallen nature that predominates the lost man. There is no salvation for that fallen nature as it must be destroyed in physical death or in the transformation at the rapture. There is nothing good "in the flesh" or fallen nature (Rom. 7:18).

We (the soul) are always in a state of battle between the fleshly nature and the renewed/regenerated (spirit) inward man. Those in 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 chose to operate after this carnal nature.

For the child of God there are two options but for the lost person there are no options. Yet the "flesh" or "carnal" or "natural" is characteristic of the lost state and a leftover of the lost state in the child of God.

Clearly, Paul is addressing carnal believers in 1 Cor 2 and 3 who are unable to accept the "deep things of God" (vs 10). He is not addressing the inability of the unsaved to believe the gospel truth when it's preached. You seem to presume that about the text.

 

[Skandelon]

First, let me clarify something. I do not believe that regeneration occurs without faith nor faith without regeneration and they are not one and the same. They are in a logical cause and effect relationship.

1 John 5:1 and the word "born" is found in the Greek text in the Aorist tense while the term "beleiveth" is found in the present tense. This is why the KJV used the present tense "is" because of identical action between the verb and participle. Logically the aorist tense "born" precedes the present tense "bellieveth" but grammatically the present tense participle occurs with "born" or identical action. One does not occur without the other but logically life (born) precedes action (beleiveth).

You say that regeneration or giving spiritual life has nothing to do with your mind or heart. However, have you looked at Ephesians 4:18 carefully and compared it to 2 Cor. 4:6??????

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.


These two verses are a description of the lost unregenerated state. To be alienated from "the life of God" is to be spiritual dead. However, note what is it that alienates them from the life of God????

1. "through IGNORANCE that is in them"
2. "because of the BLINDNESS of their heart"

But they were born that way as Calvin's doctrine of "Total Depravity" implies. Instead their hearts grew blind or hardened according to scripture. Why? Verse 19 tells us, "Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more."

Could they have done otherwise? Well, I believe the very warning of Paul in verse 17 implies that they do have a choice in the matter. He states, "So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking." And in Hebrews 3 the author warns believers not to allow their hearts to grow blind/hard.

We are not born hardened, we GROW or BECOME such after continual disobedience to His revealed truth. The doctrine of Total Depravity asserts we are born a condition of being hardened/blinded and thus unable to respond to God's revelation of Himself, which is never supported biblically.

 

[saturneptune]

First, let me clarify something. I do not believe that regeneration occurs without faith nor faith without regeneration and they are not one and the same. They are in a logical cause and effect relationship.

We agree on this topic believe it or not. One question I do have though is, do you think regeneration comes before faith? It seems that in our fallen state, we have no ability to accept any gift from God whether it be faith or grace before regeneration.

 

[saturneptune]

Clearly, Paul is addressing carnal believers in 1 Cor 2 and 3 who are unable to accept the "deep things of God" (vs 10). He is not addressing the inability of the unsaved to believe the gospel truth when it's preached. You seem to presume that about the text.

You look for any interpretation in any verse to support your Arminian view points.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Clearly, Paul is addressing carnal believers in 1 Cor 2 and 3 who are unable to accept the "deep things of God" (vs 10). He is not addressing the inability of the unsaved to believe the gospel truth when it's preached. You seem to presume that about the text.

Whether they are saved or lost makes no difference. The fallen nature is the same in the saved as it is in the lost except for one thing. In the saved you have an alternative nature and option but in the lost you do not. However, the characteristics of that nature are the same in the saved as in the lost. There is NOTHING GOOD in the fleshly nature whether you are saved or lost (Rom. 7:18-25). There is nothng spiritually alive in the fallen nature whether you are saved or lost. There is no spiritual abilities in that nature saved or lost. The fleshly nature is incapable of receiving spiritual things whether in the saved or the lost. The fleshly nature is not able to discern spiritual things whether in the saved or the lost.

Therefore in the lost person there is nothing but the fallen nature and it has no spiritual capability to receive spiritual things period. However, in the saved person there is through the power of the indwelling Spirit another option as there is another "law" at work in the renewed "inward man."

What you are not getting is that the fallen nature IS NEVER IMPROVED UPON regardless if it is found in the saved person or the lost person. It is spiritual dead whether it is found in the saved or lost person. So, the characteristics remain the same regardless of the person. However, in the lost person there is nothing else.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Do you know the difference between a physically dead person who has been dead ten minutes and one who has been dead a week? The difference is not total death but degree in corruption due to total death. Likewise, all mankind are born spiritual dead and totally depraved, meaning that every faculty is spiritually dead.

They are born like unexposed clay. The more sunlight they are exposed to the harder they get. The more they are exposed to truth the more resistant they become.

Ephesians 4:17 is a contrast between the former lost state and their present saved state. They still have the fleshly nature and it is still as spiritually dead as it always has been. However, now they have an option or an alternative nature that they are to "put on" in the mind, affections and will (soul) by the power of the indwelling Spirit.

However, Ephesians 4:18 still describes the old unregenerated nature regardless where it is found.

This is why salvation is giving them a "new" heart (Ezek. 36:26-27) and a "new" spirit because the old nature is incapable of any kind of spiritual persuasion, activity, perception, understanding in regard to God but it is totally capable of digressing and becoming more hardened. That is why it must be destroyed in death and is never the object of salvation.

But they were born that way as Calvin's doctrine of "Total Depravity" implies. Instead their hearts grew blind or hardened according to scripture. Why? Verse 19 tells us, "Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more."

Could they have done otherwise? Well, I believe the very warning of Paul in verse 17 implies that they do have a choice in the matter. He states, "So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking." And in Hebrews 3 the author warns believers not to allow their hearts to grow blind/hard.

We are not born hardened, we GROW or BECOME such after continual disobedience to His revealed truth. The doctrine of Total Depravity asserts we are born a condition of being hardened/blinded and thus unable to respond to God's revelation of Himself, which is never supported biblically.

 

[Dr. Walter]

We agree on this topic believe it or not. One question I do have though is, do you think regeneration comes before faith? It seems that in our fallen state, we have no ability to accept any gift from God whether it be faith or grace before regeneration.

Just as repentance and faith are inseparable graces but have a logical order of repentance before faith or turning away from sin turning to Christ, so also regeneration and conversion (repentance and faith) are inseparable graces that have a logical order where regeneration occurs first before conversion to the gospel.

Regeneration is eternal life imparted by the Holy Spirit in your person by new birth as child (teknia) of God wheras justification by faith is eternal life imputed to your person by adoption as a son (huios) of God.

So, regeneration or spiritual life precedes faith whereas justification of life follows faith. The first is spiritual and has to do with your person while the latter is legal and has to do with your position before God.

The former is a child by birth while the latter is a son by adoption.

There is no such thing as an unregenerated believer or a regenerated unbeliever but logically regeneration produces faith and is not completed without faith.

God creates a new heart and that heart is a believing heart rather than becomes a beleiving heart. This is the grammatical truth in I John 5:1. The new birth (Aorist tense) and "beleiveth" (present tense). Logically the Aorist tense action has been completed before the progressive present tense believing but grammatically they are simeltaneous action and that is why the verb "is" shows a state of being that combines both.