Personal attacks. Is this really necessary? Looks like Utilyan has struck a nerve with you.
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What verses say that faith is a gift that God gives man?
- Thread starter George Antonios
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Personal attacks. Is this really necessary? Looks like Utilyan has struck a nerve with you.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Here's why faith is not reckoned of God as a work:
Then why are they going to be cast into Hell?
For their sins?
God's word states that all those cast into Hell will be judged according to their works:
" And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." ( Revelation 20:11-12 ).
The "dead", not the "living" ( who are the recipients of the first resurrection... and have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them ) will be judged according to their works.
God is a God of the "living" ( Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27, Luke Luke 20:38 ).
Only the dead ( spiritually ) will be judged.
So, if not for their works, which are all sin ( Isaiah 64:6 ), then what?
You say that their sins are all pardoned...since unbelief is a sin ( John 16:9 ), then even unbelief is forgiven by the blood of Christ.
That is, if everyone is forgiven and pardoned.
According to 1 John 2:2, Christ is the propitiation ( appeasement ) for not only "our sins, but for [the sins of] the whole world.".
If "whole world" means every man, woman and child that ever lived, then no one is guilty of sin...are they?
Again, if your statement is true, then we seem to have people being cast into Hell that are forgiven of the sins that God is going to judge them for.
Justice has already been served.
It appears that you would have God judging them again, for sins that are already forgiven.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18
¶
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil
One must accept the pardon of Salvation or continue as sentenced "condemned already"
Not true at all This verse below is unlimited atonement
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
It does not say the particular elect it says Christ died for the world. All calvinist dodge this by trying to say that isn't what it means. Never the less it is what it means or Christ would not have said it.
You limit election saying God changed when he elected Gentiles. God elects cooperatively. He elected the Jews as a people unto Him Self and Christ turned to the Gentiles when the Jews rejected him. The Bible even says they are called a people who were not. He never indicates individual election. The atonement can be applied to anyone who believes. So can election.
Who do Calvinist think they are telling God who He can save and who He cannot. Not to mention you don't know for sure you are even elect. Calvinism stands on quick sand.
MB
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Of course it doesn't. What's the point?
1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
So the sins of the whole world in that verse is meaning both Jews and Gentiles and not just Jews. If it meant the whole world like every person, then it would mean every person is saved which is clearly not correct.
No, the verse is saying Christ died for the sins of everyone, not that everyone is saved.
It even says he is the propitiation for sins, "not for ours only", right there in the verse.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Yes and that is referring to the Jews. Not for the Jews only. But the sins of all men, including Gentiles.
Particular
Well-Known Member
I phrased my point incorrectly. Sorry.
Particular
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but unlimited atonement is not being stated in John 3:16. How do we know? The context around the verse gives us that information.
John 3:1-21 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesusby night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youdo not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
OK, Jesus died for the sins of all men. Agreed.
Where do you get the idea that the verse must then be saying all men are saved?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
It depends what you mean when you say all men, but yes, agreed.
By the way people try to use that verse to say it is for every person.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
He paid the price for the sins of all but it's of no avail to the man who rejects that payment. It's simple.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Ah...so some of Christ's sacrifice is wasted you say? Some of the blood was wasted?
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
The problem, as it often is in Calvinism, is that human reasoning is elevated to the point where it re-interprets scripture.
That's what the verse says.
If you wish to conclude that, that's your conclusion, but not necessarily God's.
And no, it's not, because it was God who ultimately allowed sin to enter the universe and the world through Lucifer and Adam, and it's God who on the cross paid for all of it. So in the sense that he paid for everything he allowed [man cannot thus accuse God of bearing any kind of responsibility for sin] nothing was "wasted".
The same kind of reasoning is used when a man says "well if you could believe of your own free will, then that's a work", even though he flies in the face of scriptures.
Our "well then if that, then this" 's must bow before scriptures.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Actually no, there is not a verse that says Christ died for the sin of every person. Not one verse.
If he paid for all of it, which he didn't, why do some go to Hell?
He did not pay for every sin. Not one verse says that.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
We just discussed one:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
And also:
2Pe_2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And we said why: because many men refuse the payment.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I've already shown your error on this verse. It does not say every man. It says the world. World is referring to both Jews and Gentiles and not Jews in this context.
This does not prove your claim either. This does not say Christ paid for their sin. Rather, these people had claimed they were saved, and therefore their sins had been paid for, yet their apostasy shows that was never the case.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
You can't refuse a payment if the payment is not being made to you.
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