What's YOUR definition of "predestination" in Scripture ?

[Particular]

They tell me just what I said-that, while God predestinated a few for special service to Him, everyone else must choose to come to Jesus to be saved.

Point out where God says that a few are predestined for special service and everyone else must choose to be saved. I don't see it, but you may point it out in these verses.

Acts 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

 

[Particular]

And once again - If everyone were already "predestinated", with no chance to change their status, then preaching, Bibles, etc. are useless.

False conclusion.
Sharing the gospel has two functions.
1) Those destined for salvation hear and are lead to faith upon recognizing their rebellion and need for reconciliation.
2) Those destined to destruction hear and their hatred and rebellion toward God is exposed. Their judgment is just.

 

[1689Dave]

This subject came up on another thread in another sub-forum here. I'm posting this in this sub-forum so all Christians can wade in, Baptist or not.

Personally, MY definition of it in Scripture is that all people are predestined to go to either heaven or hell, depending upon one's righteousness, and, for us under the New Covenant, whether or not we came to Jesus in genuine belief & submission.

= salvation by works.

 

[Reformed]

And once again - If everyone were already "predestinated", with no chance to change their status, then preaching, Bibles, etc. are useless.

Roby, God has predestined His elect (Ephesians 1:5). This truth is incontrovertible. But God has also ordained the means by which the Elect are called in-time (Romans 1:16). In other words, God has chosen to use the preaching of the Gospel to call those He has predestined. Will you have patience with me to consider what Scripture says? All bold and italicized text is mine.

Acts 13:44-48 44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us,

‘I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.’”

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

The Greek word for appointed in verse 48 means to set in a certain order. It is synonymous with predestine. So, in this text, we learn that only those who were appointed by the Father (predestined) to eternal life believed. What they believed was the Gospel that Paul and Barnabas preached. The Gospel was the means of salvation; it is what God used to call His elect.

But the preaching of the Gospel also serves a purpose for those who are not appointed to eternal life. Consider this text:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

The preaching of the Gospel is also a proclamation of judgment on those who will not believe (those who are perishing).

Roby, you say (and I quote), "If everyone were already "predestinated", with no chance to change their status, then preaching, Bibles, etc. are useless", God responds to that with a stinging rebuke.

Romans 9:19-24 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

God has the right of both choice and means. He chooses (appoints, predestines) both the full number of the Elect and the means by which He calls them. That He uses the means (the preaching of the Gospel) to also proclaim judgment on the reprobate (those who will not believe) is also His sovereign choice.

 

[robycop3]

Point out where God says that a few are predestined for special service and everyone else must choose to be saved. I don't see it, but you may point it out in these verses.

Acts 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

There's the story of Moses becoming the leader of Israel when he didn't seek to be, & actually tried to resist God. The, there's His appointment of Jeremiah as a prophet. There's God's choosing to speak directly to Samuel while sam was still a child. His singling out of Ezekiel as a special prophet. Jesus' choosing of His disciples who would become apostles, & His singling out of Paul after He returned to heaven. I likely missed a few, but Scripture is replete with God's having predestined certain people for special service to Him.

And there's not one case of His having predestined anyone to hell.

 

[robycop3]

False conclusion.
Sharing the gospel has two functions.
1) Those destined for salvation hear and are lead to faith upon recognizing their rebellion and need for reconciliation.
2) Those destined to destruction hear and their hatred and rebellion toward God is exposed. Their judgment is just.

What an imagination !

Does the expression "You're full of baloney" hold any meaning to you ?

 

[robycop3]

= salvation by works.

Horse Feathers!

"Salvation by worx" means seeking to be saved by doing good deeds, etc. without coming to JESUS. It does NOT iunclude believing certain things, prayer, worship, etc.

 

[Iconoclast]

This subject came up on another thread in another sub-forum here. I'm posting this in this sub-forum so all Christians can wade in, Baptist or not.

Personally, MY definition of it in Scripture is that all people are predestined to go to either heaven or hell, depending upon one's righteousness, and, for us under the New Covenant, whether or not we came to Jesus in genuine belief & submission.

That this idea can survive against dozens of verses that teach directly opposite is not likely.
I understand your idea, but it would contradict the central tenant of the gospel,

Titus3;
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

rom3;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Can you see that we are saved by HIS righteousness? Not our own.

Consider this;


Rom9:
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom10;
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[utilyan]

Luke 7

30But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

God predestined and prepared a purpose for the pharisees and lawyers, but they rejected God's purpose had in mind.

 

[Particular]

There's the story of Moses becoming the leader of Israel when he didn't seek to be, & actually tried to resist God. The, there's His appointment of Jeremiah as a prophet. There's God's choosing to speak directly to Samuel while sam was still a child. His singling out of Ezekiel as a special prophet. Jesus' choosing of His disciples who would become apostles, & His singling out of Paul after He returned to heaven. I likely missed a few, but Scripture is replete with God's having predestined certain people for special service to Him.

And there's not one case of His having predestined anyone to hell.

Every person who comes to faith is chosen by God, just like all the saints before Christ.
Second, God chooses to justly send people to hell for breaking his moral law. All humanity is destined for this just ending, unless God chooses otherwise. For those who are pulled out (chosen), their judgment fell upon the atoning lamb of God who bore their punishment upon the cross and rose to life in proof of payment made.
What I note is that you could not point to the verses I shared and extrapolate your assertion from them. In fact, you ignored them entirely.

 

[1689Dave]

Horse Feathers!

"Salvation by worx" means seeking to be saved by doing good deeds, etc. without coming to JESUS. It does NOT iunclude believing certain things, prayer, worship, etc.

= salvation by self-righteousness.

 

[robycop3]

Roby, God has predestined His elect (Ephesians 1:5). This truth is incontrovertible. But God has also ordained the means by which the Elect are called in-time (Romans 1:16). In other words, God has chosen to use the preaching of the Gospel to call those He has predestined. Will you have patience with me to consider what Scripture says? All bold and italicized text is mine.

Acts 13:44-48 44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us,

‘I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.’”

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

The Greek word for appointed in verse 48 means to set in a certain order. It is synonymous with predestine. So, in this text, we learn that only those who were appointed by the Father (predestined) to eternal life believed. What they believed was the Gospel that Paul and Barnabas preached. The Gospel was the means of salvation; it is what God used to call His elect.

But the preaching of the Gospel also serves a purpose for those who are not appointed to eternal life. Consider this text:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

The preaching of the Gospel is also a proclamation of judgment on those who will not believe (those who are perishing).

Roby, you say (and I quote), "If everyone were already "predestinated", with no chance to change their status, then preaching, Bibles, etc. are useless", God responds to that with a stinging rebuke.

Romans 9:19-24 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

God has the right of both choice and means. He chooses (appoints, predestines) both the full number of the Elect and the means by which He calls them. That He uses the means (the preaching of the Gospel) to also proclaim judgment on the reprobate (those who will not believe) is also His sovereign choice.

Again, if everyone were already predestinated with no cfhance to change their "fate", then all worship is useless.

And, of course, you completely ignore 2 Peter 3:9. You calvinists can't get away from your silliness. Once more: If God had wanted robots, He could easily have made them !

 

[Particular]

What an imagination !

Does the expression "You're full of baloney" hold any meaning to you ?

Deep thoughts from a person with no scripture to support him.
Clearly the imagination is all yours.

 

[robycop3]

Every person who comes to faith is chosen by God, just like all the saints before Christ.
Second, God chooses to justly send people to hell for breaking his moral law. All humanity is destined for this just ending, unless God chooses otherwise. For those who are pulled out (chosen), their judgment fell upon the atoning lamb of God who bore their punishment upon the cross and rose to life in proof of payment made.

Yes, once that person chooses to come to Jesus, God chooses him/her.

 

[1689Dave]

Yes, once that person chooses to come to Jesus, God chooses him/her.

this makes you the savior.

 

[Particular]

Luke 7

30But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

God predestined and prepared a purpose for the pharisees and lawyers, but they rejected God's purpose had in mind.

Nice try. Let's look at the passage instead of half a verse.

Luke 7:26-30 What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is he of whom it is written, “‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.’ I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” (When all the people heard this, and the tax collectors too, they declared God just,having been baptized with the baptism of John, but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)

So, the Pharisees aren't rejecting God's purpose to save them. They are rejecting God's purpose to have them be baptized with John's baptism of repentance surrounding the Kingdom of Israel.
Do you imagine that all the people and tax payers were saved when they declared God just simply because John the Baptist had baptized them?

I thank you for showing us a perfect example of twisting scripture to create a prooftext in an attempt to prop up a false doctrine.

 

[Reformed]

Again, if everyone were already predestinated with no cfhance to change their "fate", then all worship is useless.

And, of course, you completely ignore 2 Peter 3:9. You calvinists can't get away from your silliness. Once more: If God had wanted robots, He could easily have made them !

I typically do not interact with you because of responses like the one you just made. Instead of responding to the text and conclusions I presented, you just ignored them and accused me of silliness. You pick those passages that support your beliefs and discard the rest. Have a good day, sir.

 

[utilyan]

Every person who comes to faith is chosen by God, just like all the saints before Christ.
Second, God chooses to justly send people to hell for breaking his moral law. All humanity is destined for this just ending, unless God chooses otherwise. For those who are pulled out (chosen), their judgment fell upon the atoning lamb of God who bore their punishment upon the cross and rose to life in proof of payment made.
What I note is that you could not point to the verses I shared and extrapolate your assertion from them. In fact, you ignored them entirely.

" God chooses to justly send people to hell for breaking his moral law. All humanity is destined for this just ending, unless God chooses otherwise."

You have no scripture that says this and is based on false retributive justice on a sinner rather then restorative justice of the "victim" God almighty.

In other words you look at a wrongdoer and say well he deserves to have all his things burnt including the things stolen from the innocent victim of what he is charged against in the first place.

What does GOD THE FATHER deserve should be looked at first in restorative justice, WHAT DOES GOD DESERVE takes priority over what a SINNER DESERVES in retribution.

A friend of yours has stolen your car, Retribution based on the criminal well we burn up the car and burn up the friend, cause pain to his family , might even cause you pain and suffering, if it was your own child.......burn him right?

See you the victim is being ignored. Where is YOUR JUSTICE? instead you are incurring damages

God follows restorative justice. First and foremost what did God deserve?

It can't be selfish justice, its not all about YOU. You got this twisted idea that Sin is some perk with menu like pricing.

 

[Particular]

Yes, once that person chooses to come to Jesus, God chooses him/her.

An assertion with zero scripture to support it.

robycop, just because you feel something to be true, it does not make it true. You make unsupported assertions and seem to think that your feeling it to be true actually makes it true.
Without biblical support your argument is empty. You lose the debate when you have no facts to support your assertion.

 

[utilyan]

Nice try. Let's look at the passage instead of half a verse.

Luke 7:26-30 What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is he of whom it is written, “‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.’ I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” (When all the people heard this, and the tax collectors too, they declared God just,having been baptized with the baptism of John, but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)

So, the Pharisees aren't rejecting God's purpose to save them. They are rejecting God's purpose to have them be baptized with John's baptism of repentance surrounding the Kingdom of Israel.
Do you imagine that all the people and tax payers were saved when they declared God just simply because John the Baptist had baptized them?

I thank you for showing us a perfect example of twisting scripture to create a prooftext in an attempt to prop up a false doctrine.

God could have purposed them to sit on a toilet. The point is they refused God's purpose he prepared for them.