What's YOUR definition of "predestination" in Scripture ?

[Dave G]

Apologies for replying again to a thread that I had intended to stop replying to,
but @Reformed has made a point that I feel should be commented on:

I also do not believe in eternal justification, that God has justified His elect even before they came to faith in Christ.

I don't believe in eternal justification, either.

But I do believe that God justified them by the blood of His Son, at the cross, no matter where "in time" they were born and came to repentance.
Abraham looked forward to Christ, and his faith in His Saviour is what evidenced God's justification of him from His sins.

The thief on the cross next to the Lord was shown as justified by that faith ( the evidence of his salvation ), even though the Lord was right in the middle of shedding His blood for Him.
Paul's justification and reconciling to God was effected on the cross even though Paul was called to repentance some months after.
My justification was the same, even though I had believed on Him roughly 1,978 years after His sacrifice for me.

Why is it that I base my observations on justification as I do?

Because I take these passages literally:
" For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:10 ).

" And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:" ( Colossians 1:21-22 )

We, as believers, were reconciled in the body of His flesh through His death...not when we came to faith.
Faith is only the evidence of things that have happened ( or will happen depending upon which side of the cross the believer is at ), in a Saviour that has made them happen for all of us.
His elect were cleansed of their sins at the cross.

That is when the atonement was made, and that is when the shedding of blood for us happened.
I did not always understand it this way, but only recently came to it through my studies in His word.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, sir.



May God bless you greatly.

 

[Reformed]

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, sir.

Strongly disagree. What you have articulated is eternal justification. I do not wish to debate it here in this thread and I am content to let our disagreement remain as is.

 

[robycop3]

I agree.
First they were chosen ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ) then given ( John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:2 ), then they believed when the Gospel was preached to them ( Ephesians 1:13-14 ).

Yes, God chose some people such as Moses, Jeremiah, & the apostles, then gave them over to Jesus.

I did and I do.

Lotsa "whoevers" in them.

I also do not read and believe them to the exclusion of other things that He has to say on the matter.

I, too, believe He predestinated some to special service to Him.

I'm not a "Calvinist".

But at times you seemta be a person of contradictions. You say you're not KJVO, but you quote Scripture from. And you say you're not a calvinist, but "predestination for all" is a mainstay of those who "tiptoe thru the TULIP".

I believe the Bible, roby.
All of it.

So do I And I believe the writings, not man's private interps of them.

To me, you are the one calling me a "Calvinist" because it seems that you think that I get my understanding of Scripture from John Calvin...
I don't.
Respectfully, I have no use for anything he ever wrote, and don't even own a copy of his "Institutes".
I don't have any use for Augustine's writings, those of John Knox, nor any of the other "Reformers", either.

I don't, either, not one work of theirs. But, OTOH, if one acts like a calvinist, follows some of calvinist doctrine, etc. what am I to think ?

I have the Scriptures and His Spirit, and that is all that I need...
Everything that I need that pertains to life and godliness through Christ Jesus my Lord ( 2 Peter 1:3 ).

So do I. That's why I work against all false doctrines of faith/worship, cuz if it aint in Scripture, it aint true.

Again, Scripture defines the "whosoever".. and does it in much greater detail than it seems that you are willing to consider.
It also defines, in greater detail, those that call upon His name.

But you admit you can't name anyone now living who cannot be saved.

Not everyone that calls Him "Lord" will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 7:21-23 ), roby.
There's a lot more to being saved that simply calling upon His name.

But those who call upon His name will see His commands.

Anyone can have a life-changing experience and "turn over a new leaf".
I've seen many people do it, only to fall away back into a love of the world and its ways.

Me,too. That's why I don't believe in "OSAS". But I believe 100% that JESUS will ALWAYS di HIS part without fail, every time.

I hope that that was not what happened for you, and does not happen to you.
What I truly hope is that His word and His Spirit is what got your attention.

I study God's word daily.

That is something that you will have to answer for yourself.
He is your Judge, and He is my Judge.

Election is not based on belief, roby...
Belief is based on election.

God acts, and the targets of that action then react to His mercy and grace through the spiritual power of His word and of His Spirit.

You're still implying you believe God created some people predestinated for hell, no matter what. God's justice is PERFECT, and it wouldn't be justice at all to create people with no chance for salvation.

Lemme cite the parable of the potter & the clay. The potter molds some of the clay into beautiful decorative vessels, while molding some of it into trashcans. But it's better to be a trashcan used by God than a decorative vase used by sinners.

 

[rlvaughn]

What's YOUR definition of "predestination" in Scripture?

I would define it as "determined beforehand," as proorizó is most often translated in Acts 4:28, which I consider a biblical definition.

For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

 

[Van]

I see we have run to 5 pages, with many nonsensical views being expressed.

I agree with "predestination" being defined as "determined beforehand." Say God makes a prophecy, whatever is said will occur as it has been determined by God to occur as God said it would. Nothing restricting that view to the topic of salvation, anything God says will occur - will occur. So much for a rational definition. Things can be determined beforehand before creation or when God determines to predestine them.

Now a certain sect tries to include salvation in the things God predestined. However, you must misread scripture to make the argument. Anyone and everyone saved (by God spiritually placing them in Christ) becomes predestined to two things: (1), they will be conformed to the image of His Son, and (2) they will be adopted as sons, meaning the resurrection of their bodies, at Christ's second coming.

Thus God's redemption plan predestined anyone and everyone placed in Christ to be conformed and raised.

The sect tries to redefine adoption to mean to be born anew, but that argument is bogus.

 

[Yeshua1]

This subject came up on another thread in another sub-forum here. I'm posting this in this sub-forum so all Christians can wade in, Baptist or not.

Personally, MY definition of it in Scripture is that all people are predestined to go to either heaven or hell, depending upon one's righteousness, and, for us under the New Covenant, whether or not we came to Jesus in genuine belief & submission.

Applies to the saved/elect in Christ.... Romans 8....

 

[utilyan]

1 Samuel 23

6Now it came about, when Abiathar the son of Ahimelech fled to David at Keilah, that he came down with an ephod in his hand. 7When it was told Saul that David had come to Keilah, Saul said, “God has delivered him into my hand, for he shut himself in by entering a city with double gates and bars.” 8So Saul summoned all the people for war, to go down to Keilah to besiege David and his men. 9Now David knew that Saul was plotting evil against him; so he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod here.” 10Then David said, “O LORD God of Israel, Your servant has heard for certain that Saul is seeking to come to Keilah to destroy the city on my account. 11“Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down just as Your servant has heard? O LORD God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.” And the LORD said, “He will come down.” 12Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the LORD said, “They will surrender you.” 13Then David and his men, about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the pursuit. 14David stayed in the wilderness in the strongholds, and remained in the hill country in the wilderness of Ziph. And Saul sought him every day, but God did not deliver him into his hand.


Saul is hunting David down. David asks God will Saul come to this city looking for him, God almighty said HE WILL.
David asks Will the People of the City turn him over to Saul? God almighty said YES THEY WILL.

So David leaves, Saul doesn't go to the city and the CITY never turned David over to Saul AS GOD WRONGLY/PERFECTLY PROPHESIED THEY WOULD.

If God had exercised detailed sovereignty his prophecy would not fail. Either David would have broke a leg trying to leave the city and then the city would handed over to Saul. Or God would have answered No the folks in the city won't surrender David to Saul, because You, David are not going to stay here.

Let us consider the COMMON SENSE of how this is possible. Why did God appear to have an alternate reality based on the FREE WILL CHOICE of David? Or Do you think God LIES? Or do you think God got his prophecy wrong?

i'll try to make a simpler form of this story for our little brethren.

 

[utilyan]

Here's a simpler version of the same story, young folks might get it.

Imagine you ran away from home and MOM is looking for you. So you hide at your SISTER's house. And you ask God is MOM going to come here? God says Mom is going to come here. Then you ask is YOUR SISTER going to turn you over to MOM? God says YES Your SISTER WILL TURN YOU OVER TO MOM. SO THEN YOU LEAVE, Mom never comes to SISTER's house, and SISTER never turns you over to Mom.

Calvinist version cannot allow this. If you tried leaving home you'd end up falling asleep, playing video games, breaking a leg, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, you end up staying home, mom coming there and Sister handing you over.

 

[Particular]

1 Samuel 23

6Now it came about, when Abiathar the son of Ahimelech fled to David at Keilah, that he came down with an ephod in his hand. 7When it was told Saul that David had come to Keilah, Saul said, “God has delivered him into my hand, for he shut himself in by entering a city with double gates and bars.” 8So Saul summoned all the people for war, to go down to Keilah to besiege David and his men. 9Now David knew that Saul was plotting evil against him; so he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod here.” 10Then David said, “O LORD God of Israel, Your servant has heard for certain that Saul is seeking to come to Keilah to destroy the city on my account. 11“Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down just as Your servant has heard? O LORD God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.” And the LORD said, “He will come down.” 12Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the LORD said, “They will surrender you.” 13Then David and his men, about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the pursuit. 14David stayed in the wilderness in the strongholds, and remained in the hill country in the wilderness of Ziph. And Saul sought him every day, but God did not deliver him into his hand.


Saul is hunting David down. David asks God will Saul come to this city looking for him, God almighty said HE WILL.
David asks Will the People of the City turn him over to Saul? God almighty said YES THEY WILL.

So David leaves, Saul doesn't go to the city and the CITY never turned David over to Saul AS GOD WRONGLY/PERFECTLY PROPHESIED THEY WOULD.

If God had exercised detailed sovereignty his prophecy would not fail. Either David would have broke a leg trying to leave the city and then the city would handed over to Saul. Or God would have answered No the folks in the city won't surrender David to Saul, because You, David are not going to stay here.

Let us consider the COMMON SENSE of how this is possible. Why did God appear to have an alternate reality based on the FREE WILL CHOICE of David? Or Do you think God LIES? Or do you think God got his prophecy wrong?

i'll try to make a simpler form of this story for our little brethren.

My goodness, that is the most pathetic interpretation I have ever read regarding this passage. An atheist could do a better job and observe the Sovereign hand of God in this passage better than you have.
Such a poor exegisis is not worth explaining why it is so poor. Any believer will easily see how messed up your thoughts are and how much you miss out on the greatness of God in his sovereign work among men.
You make me sad for you, utilyan.

 

[utilyan]

My goodness, that is the most pathetic interpretation I have ever read regarding this passage. An atheist could do a better job and observe the Sovereign hand of God in this passage better than you have.
Such a poor exegisis is not worth explaining why it is so poor. Any believer will easily see how messed up your thoughts are and how much you miss out on the greatness of God in his sovereign work among men.
You make me sad for you, utilyan.

So easy and yet your not telling us what is wrong with it. Only a sanctimonious attack on my character.

 

[Particular]

So easy and yet your not telling us what is wrong with it.

I feel sad for you, utilyan. I honestly feel sad for you.

 

[utilyan]

I feel sad for you, utilyan. I honestly feel sad for you.

You can only give a sanctimonious attack on my character.

How about you actually address the content.

 

[Particular]

You can only give a sanctimonious attack on my character.

How about you actually address the content.

I tell you that I am sad for you because you misinterpret the passage and declare that God failed to accurately speak truth. That makes me sad. I feel bad for you.

 

[utilyan]

I tell you that I am sad for you because you misinterpret the passage and declare that God failed to accurately speak truth. That makes me sad. I feel bad for you.

You are only attacking my character because you lack the knowledge to address the content.

There is nothing in the passage misinterpret. I simply stated what it says.

Give us your take on the passage........YOU CAN'T. It says God told David Saul would come and the city would give him up. If God preordained it so there is no escaping the outcome. Instead David left and what God said was going to happen did not on the free will choice David made to leave.

 

[Particular]

You are only attacking my character because you lack the knowledge to address the content.

There is nothing in the passage misinterpret. I simply stated what it says.

Give us your take on the passage........YOU CAN'T. It says God told David Saul would come and the city would give him up. If God preordained it so there is no escaping the outcome. Instead David left and what God said was going to happen did not on the free will choice David made to leave.

You claim God failed and misspoke. There is nothing I can do, except pray for you to see the error of your thought. You make me sad for you.

 

[utilyan]

You claim God failed and misspoke. There is nothing I can do, except pray for you to see the error of your thought. You make me sad for you.

No particular, You are the one who thinks God misspoke or failed.

Because under your theology God absolutely ORDAINS everything. Therefore God only predestines one path, one way everything is going to happen, the way he ordains it to happen.

11“Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down just as Your servant has heard? O LORD God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.” And the LORD said, “He will come down.” 12Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the LORD said, “They will surrender you.”

God clearly tells David Saul will come to the City. God clearly tells David THEY WILL SURRENDER YOU.

Does this happen? NO. Notice your buddies are not weighing in on account they still scratching their head on how wrong their stance is.

Everything God PREORDAINS he KNOWS. He knows exactly what is going to happen because it is exactly as he forced it to happen.

IF Calvinist God were so and there is no free will, He would have told David, You are going to leave so Saul will not come to the City.

Calvinist God would have said You are going to leave so the City will not turn you over to Saul.

OR

He could would have said the same thing and David would have stayed being caught by Saul.

All you have to do is give us YOUR TAKE on what happen. But we both know you will not. Your stance hangs by vanity and pride alone. You can only attack my character.

 

[Particular]

No particular, You are the one who thinks God misspoke or failed.

Because under your theology God absolutely ORDAINS everything. Therefore God only predestines one path, one way everything is going to happen, the way he ordains it to happen.

11“Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down just as Your servant has heard? O LORD God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.” And the LORD said, “He will come down.” 12Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the LORD said, “They will surrender you.”

God clearly tells David Saul will come to the City. God clearly tells David THEY WILL SURRENDER YOU.

Does this happen? NO. Notice your buddies are not weighing in on account they still scratching their head on how wrong their stance is.

Everything God PREORDAINS he KNOWS. He knows exactly what is going to happen because it is exactly as he forced it to happen.

IF Calvinist God were so and there is no free will, He would have told David, You are going to leave so Saul will not come to the City.

Calvinist God would have said You are going to leave so the City will not turn you over to Saul.

OR

He could would have said the same thing and David would have stayed being caught by Saul.

All you have to do is give us YOUR TAKE on what happen. But we both know you will not. Your stance hangs by vanity and pride alone. You can only attack my character.

Sigh, you are so terribly wrong. [emoji22]

 

[utilyan]

Sigh, you are so terribly wrong. [emoji22]

Like I said, All you have to do is give us YOUR TAKE on what happen. But we both know you will not.

 

[Particular]

1 Samuel 23:6-14 When Abiathar the son of Ahimelech had fled to David to Keilah, he had come down with an ephod in his hand. Now it was told Saul that David had come to Keilah. And Saul said, “God has given him into my hand, for he has shut himself in by entering a town that has gates and bars.” And Saul summoned all the people to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men. David knew that Saul was plotting harm against him. And he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod here.” Then David said, “O Lord, the God of Israel, your servant has surely heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah, to destroy the city on my account. Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O Lord, the God of Israel, please tell your servant.” And the Lord said, “He will come down.” Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will surrender you.” Then David and his men, who were about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the expedition. And David remained in the strongholds in the wilderness, in the hill country of the wilderness of Ziph. And Saul sought him every day, but God did not give him into his hand.

Abiathar had an ephod.
David sought the Lord.
God told him Saul would come.
David believed God.
David fled the city.
Saul went out to find David. He couldn't find him.
Saul gave up.
Because God told David what would happen if he stayed at Keilah, David knew he had to leave and thus spare the city.
God was right on the mark and David knew it, which is why David left.

So, your interpretation is pathetic and demeaning of God who never false testifies or speaks untruth. You call God a failure and a false prophesier. It is so sad to see you speak so poorly of God and yet imagine you glorify him. I find your view delusional.

 

[utilyan]

1 Samuel 23:6-14 When Abiathar the son of Ahimelech had fled to David to Keilah, he had come down with an ephod in his hand. Now it was told Saul that David had come to Keilah. And Saul said, “God has given him into my hand, for he has shut himself in by entering a town that has gates and bars.” And Saul summoned all the people to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men. David knew that Saul was plotting harm against him. And he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod here.” Then David said, “O Lord, the God of Israel, your servant has surely heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah, to destroy the city on my account. Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O Lord, the God of Israel, please tell your servant.” And the Lord said, “He will come down.” Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will surrender you.” Then David and his men, who were about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the expedition. And David remained in the strongholds in the wilderness, in the hill country of the wilderness of Ziph. And Saul sought him every day, but God did not give him into his hand.

Abiathar had an ephod.
David sought the Lord.
God told him Saul would come.
David believed God.
David fled the city.
Saul went out to find David. He couldn't find him.
Saul gave up.
Because God told David what would happen if he stayed at Keilah, David knew he had to leave and thus spare the city.
God was right on the mark and David knew it, which is why David left.

So, your interpretation is pathetic and demeaning of God who never false testifies or speaks untruth. You call God a failure and a false prophesier. It is so sad to see you speak so poorly of God and yet imagine you glorify him. I find your view delusional.

No. Saul did not go to keilah. He gave up persuit/expedition. He tried to look for him in the wilderness.

Also God said “They will surrender you.” Never happened.

"Because God told David what would happen if he stayed at Keilah"

There is no such thing because God ordains his one way it all happens.

"So, your interpretation is pathetic and demeaning of God who never false testifies or speaks untruth."

I believe God is perfect. I don't believe your view of God. You are the one stuck with a dilemma of a LIAR GOD.

You are breaking your own rules. because God ORDAINS exactly what will happen. So he would be an idiot to claim Saul will come and the city would surrender him.

My understanding of God allows for free will so it doesn't make him a liar at all.

My God follows the character of Jesus Christ, not Hitler, not a pagan volcano god. Your view is a insult to God.