What's YOUR definition of "predestination" in Scripture ?

[utilyan]

Yes, because I had no thoughts for Him or His ways.

Hatred of God is more than simply shaking an angry fist at Him...
It is the absence of love and obedience towards Him.

" Thou shalt have no other gods before me." ( Exodus 20:3 )
In my heart, I was my own master and god.

" Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." ( Exodus 20:7 ).
Did that many times, even as an 11 year old.

" Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee." ( Exodus 20:12 ).
I didn't always do as I was told, even as a child.
There were times I did wrong, knowing my parents would never find out.

" Thou shalt not kill." ( Exodus 20:13 ).
There were many times I wished bad things, and even death, in my mind towards others for hurting me.
A thought is as good as the deed.

" Thou shalt not commit adultery." ( Exodus 20:14 ).
I've done this, to my shame, even as a believer.
If I'm not saved, there will literally be Hell to pay.

"Thou shalt not steal." ( Exodus 12:15 ).
Stole 9v batteries from the local grocery store, and palmed an occasional candy without paying for it.

...where should I stop with God's Law?
It condemned me even when I was ignorant of it.

My lack of love and obedience towards God did not give me an excuse not to obey Him, because His word says that I have no excuse.
All men know Who He is ( Romans 1:18-20 ), are without excuse, and know what sin is.
Humanity, through the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, knows the difference between them.

To ignore God is to hate God, utilyan.
He requires us to love Him with all our hearts, all our minds and in all our ways ( Deuteronomy 6:5 ).

Since we are not capable of that, it shows the proof that we hate Him.
To hate Him, again, is to ignore Him and not to love Him.

Do you see where you are a sinner, and deserving of eternal punishment for your sins?
I did, and still do.
That is why I throw myself on His mercy, and hope in His Son.

I agree you believe that is your theology. No one convinced you nor did you convince yourself otherwise. It was on God to make the change and no greater biblical support or education would have made a difference. So you cannot blame a person's lack of understanding or knowledge being the culprit there is only one VARIABLE that is GOD ALONE.

 

[robycop3]

All living people the Father gives him. Read it again. You are avoiding and denying.

No, YOU are. Jesus said "whoever", not "whoever if elect".

 

[1689Dave]

Predestination.

This rare and late word has in the NT the sense “to foreordain.” It is parallel to “to foreknow” in Rom. 8:29. God has ordained everything in salvation history with Christ as the goal. Hence Herod, Pilate, and the Gentiles can only do what God has predetermined (Acts 4:28). Herein lies the hidden wisdom of God (1 Cor. 2:7). Divine sonship in Christ is the goal of God’s ordaining (Eph. 1:5). Our assurance of inheritance rests on it (1:11). [K. L. SCHMIDT, V, 452–56]

Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1985). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (p. 728). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans.

 

[robycop3]

" as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." ( John 17:2 ).

That is the context for the "whosoever", roby.
Salvation is not available to all men.
Whoever told you that, was mistaken.

Can you name anyone now alive who CAN'T be saved ?

However, "whosoever believeth" leaves room for a lot, for the rolls of Heaven are filled with many more than can be numbered.
Truly, "whosoever believes" shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

Have you believed on Christ?
If so, then praise God, for you are one of His elect.

But I wasn't ALWAYS one of His elect. Jesus elected me when I chose to come to Him in repentance, belief, & submission.

He did.

Directly, as He did with Paul ?

" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple."

( Psalms 65:4 ).

The truth of His words did not make you come to Him, knowing that you were a sinner and destitute of His grace, facing His eternal wrath for your disobedience to Him all your life?

That's what made me come to Him.

The truth of His words concerning my condition before Him, and His only remedy...
Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross for me.

I hope that that is what did it for you, when you think back on it.

While my parents & others had proclaimed the Gospel to me & around me since childhood, I didn't give it much thought til I was shot at one day while on police duty & realized I coulda died right then. That got me thinking about what happens after one's death. No one I knew, not even the worst sinners, believed we just blank out when we die. That's when I started reading a Bible closely & began realizing I was just as bad, if not a worse, sinner than those I threw in jail. Soon, I knew I'd better come to Jesus ASAP & learn what He wanted me to do.

Did I believe I was always "elect"? Not at all, & still don't !

 

[1689Dave]

While my parents & others had proclaimed the Gospel to me & around me since childhood, I didn't give it much thought til I was shot at one day while on police duty & realized I coulda died right then. That got me thinking about what happens after one's death. No one I knew, not even the worst sinners, believed we just blank out when we die. That's when I started reading a Bible closely & began realizing I was just as bad, if not a worse, sinner than those I threw in jail. Soon, I knew I'd better come to Jesus ASAP & learn what He wanted me to do.

Did I believe I was always "elect"? Not at all, & still don't !

The way I interpret your testimony is; God had you shot as a wake-up call and drew you into the scriptures. He gave you the New Birth so you could understand them. As Paul says; “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

So just as God subdued Paul on the road to Damascus through physical upheaval, he ordered your steps in everything pertaining to your salvation.

 

[robycop3]

The way I interpret your testimony is; God had you shot as a wake-up call and drew you into the scriptures. He gave you the New Birth so you could understand them. As Paul says; “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

So just as God subdued Paul on the road to Damascus through physical upheaval, he ordered your steps in everything pertaining to your salvation.

Paul was predestinated; I was not.

(BTW, I was not shot, only shot AT. The bullets hit about 5 feet away.)

 

[1689Dave]

Paul was predestinated; I was not.

(BTW, I was not shot, only shot AT. The bullets hit about 5 feet away.)

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” Romans 8:29 (KJV 1900)

“Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” Romans 8:30 (KJV 1900)

“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,” Ephesians 1:5 (KJV 1900)

“In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” Ephesians 1:11 (KJV 1900)

 

[Particular]

No, YOU are. Jesus said "whoever", not "whoever if elect".

Did you even read the passages?
"All that my Father has given."
If you are determined to make salvation all about your own choice, based on your own wisdom and discernment, I cannot stop you. You will be purposely ignoring passages in the Bible while clinging to a sentence or two that actually teaches something other, if you would look beyond the one sentence.
You have been provided with more than enough scripture to show you your error. Your error is entirely on you and you will stand before God to give an account for your rebellious stance.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3,11-15
But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?
For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This is my last response to you. May God grow you in grace.

 

[Dave G]

No, YOU are. Jesus said "whoever", not "whoever if elect".

Jesus said many things, roby.

Not only did He say, "...whosoever believeth in me should not perish, but have everlasting life.", He also said that no man can come to Him unless it was given to Him to do so by His Father ( John 6:65 ), and that He only gives eternal life to as many as were given to Him by His Father ( John 17:2 ).

Put the pieces together, sir.
To me, you're ignoring parts of it.

God's children accept whatever He has to say...all of it ( Matthew 4:4, John 8:47, John 10:27 ).
Are you willing to accept whatever He has to say on any matter, as long as it can be found in Scripture?

I hope so, sir.

Can you name anyone now alive who CAN'T be saved ?

No.
Do I define who can be saved by what His word says?

Yes.

But I wasn't ALWAYS one of His elect.

If you've truly believed on Christ, from the heart, then you were always one of His elect...

Since they were chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), they were always "known" by God and were never in danger of going to Hell.
You were made accepted in the beloved ( Ephesians 1:6 )...
Your actions had nothing to do with His choice of you.

You believed because it was given to you to do so ( Philippians 1:29 ) in the behalf of Christ.

Jesus elected me when I chose to come to Him in repentance, belief, & submission.

Whoever told you that, has the cart before the horse.
They are teaching you that your faith, belief and submission are what saved you, when Scripture says no such thing.

However, it can be made to say such things.
For example, see Mark 10:52 and Luke 7:50.

Directly, as He did with Paul ?

Directly, as he did with every one of His beloved.

Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah, David, Peter, John and many others ...they are all your brothers in Christ.
Phoebe, Joanna, Susanna, Mary, Mary Magdalene, Sarah, and many others are all your sisters in Christ.

Paul was no more special to God than any of His other children.
The Lord simply gave him an important office as apostle...a position of great responsibility.
But we are all precious in His sight.

We were all dead in trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:5 ), and He sent His beloved Son to die for us ( 1 John 4:10 ).

That's when I started reading a Bible closely & began realizing I was just as bad, if not a worse, sinner than those I threw in jail. Soon, I knew I'd better come to Jesus ASAP & learn what He wanted me to do.

That's what I was looking for...
The work of God through His word, roby...as with all of His children.

" Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ( John 6:29 )

The work of God is for someone to believe on His Son...
It's all His work, not man's.

On a side note:
The moment you believed what the Bible said about your sinful condition and the remedy for it, is when you "came to Jesus".

 

[Dave G]

Did I believe I was always "elect"? Not at all, & still don't !

Paul was predestinated; I was not.

Again, "elect" is the same as "whosoever believeth"...

is the same as "Christ's sheep"...
is the same as "beloved of God"...
is the same as "those that have obtained like faith"...
is the same as "the saints"...
is the same as "all who are in Christ Jesus".

They are all one and the same.
One cannot be a true believer without being one of God's elect.
Belief, from the heart, is the result of God's work through the word and through the Spirit.
He doesn't do that for everyone.

He only does it for those He has had mercy and compassion on ( Romans 9:14-18 ).

So, if you are saved, then you are "elect".
If you're saved, then HE did the saving, not you.

Whoever poisoned your mind into believing that the "elect" / "predestinated" are special above all of His children ( the saved ), has lied to you, roby.
Whoever told you that your faith and belief are what saved you, has lied to you...
Whether or not that lie was done in ignorance makes no difference.

IF you've believed on Christ from the heart and confessed Him before men, from the heart and with the mouth, you are elect, and predestinated to the adoption of children ( Ephesians 1:5 ), and predestinated [to be] conformed to the image of His Son ( Romans 8:30 ).

 

[Iconoclast]

So, you're saying Jesus doesn't actually save anyone ?

Please tell us what made YOU decide to come to Him !

I'll tell you what made ME decide to: a brush with death while a cop. My parents had quietly presented the Gospel to me for years, but I simply let it go in one ear & out the other til I realized I could die at any time.

I'm not even sure why you'd say such a thing I believe Jesus saves everyone He intended to save
for you to say I don't believe Jesus saves anyone is sort of a bizarre statement. I think you just trying to get out from the fact that you can't support your previous answers and when anyone questions you have to deflect and do something bizarre. You are rejecting the biblical language itself.
You started the thread. Many have answered you patiently. Your responses betray a total lack of understanding of the topic.
Why did you start the thread if you are not willing to accept biblical correction.

 

[Dave G]

I agree you believe that is your theology.

No, utilyan.

That is actually how I felt.
I had no thought for God, past acknowledging Him out of superstition.

It was on God to make the change and no greater biblical support or education would have made a difference.

It has always been on God to change the heart, as man's heart is desperately wicked:

" The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" ( Jeremiah 17:9 ).

So you cannot blame a person's lack of understanding or knowledge being the culprit there is only one VARIABLE that is GOD ALONE.

I'm not blaming a person's lack of understanding or knowledge of the Bible as being the culprit.

I'm blaming myself for ignoring Him and going about my own way, doing what I wanted even if it is in disobedience to what He has already revealed ( Romans 1:18-20 ).
I'm agreeing with God when He states that men are responsible for their sins, me included, and that the only way I can never come to Him is if He causes it ( Psalms 65:4 ).
God is not responsible for my sins...I am ( James 1:13-15 ).

Before He revealed Himself to me by His word, I was dead in trespasses and sins.
That is what His word tells me, not a "church".
Before He showed me the truth of my sinful condition before Him, I was like other Gentiles:

" This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness." ( Ephesians 4:17-19 ).

Afterwords, I began to recognize truths about His word and what they were describing.
It was His word and the preaching of it ( 1 Corinthians 1:21 ) that showed me my need for a Saviour, not my "theology".
That came later.

Belief of the words on the page builds upon itself into a more comprehensive understanding of those words.
Again, it seems to me that you don't believe the words themselves.
If not, then I encourage you to do so...
Because that is what characterizes a child of God.

We "hear" His voice and follow our Saviour, Jesus Christ ( John 10:27 ).
His "voice" is whatever is written on the pages of the only Book that we as believers can trust.

The Holy Scriptures.

We don't follow men or institutions of men ( John 10:4-5 ).
We follow Jesus Christ and His words alone.

 

[tyndale1946]

I'm not even sure why you'd say such a thing I believe Jesus saves everyone He intended to save
for you to say I don't believe Jesus saves anyone is sort of a bizarre statement. I think you just trying to get out from the fact that you can't support your previous answers and when anyone questions you have to deflect and do something bizarre. You are rejecting the biblical language itself.
You started the thread. Many have answered you patiently. Your responses betray a total lack of understanding of the topic.
Why did you start the thread if you are not willing to accept biblical correction.

In one of the concordances I believe it is Strong's, next to the word of foreknowledge is forethought... So can scripture tell us what God's forethought was?... Some brethren say it is based on his omnificence, if that is so then predestination is based on an attribute of God and not on the person of God... Scriptures say GOD IS LOVE!... If God is love, predestination is based on that love.

Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Brother Glen

 

[robycop3]

Did you even read the passages?
"All that my Father has given."
If you are determined to make salvation all about your own choice, based on your own wisdom and discernment, I cannot stop you. You will be purposely ignoring passages in the Bible while clinging to a sentence or two that actually teaches something other, if you would look beyond the one sentence.
You have been provided with more than enough scripture to show you your error. Your error is entirely on you and you will stand before God to give an account for your rebellious stance.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3,11-15
But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?
For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This is my last response to you. May God grow you in grace.

YOU are one of those with the error here, as you believe the calvinist hooey. You can't tell us why Jesus gave the Great Commission if everyone's already predestinated, etc. etc.

You cannot name anyone now living who cannot possibly be saved.

If God predestined EVERYTHING, He created sin.

1 Tim. 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Any mention here of pre-elected only ?

1 John 2: 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Who among the living does this leave out ?

Matthew 23:37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

John 5: 39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Dave G]

You can't tell us why Jesus gave the Great Commission if everyone's already predestinated, etc. etc.

To notify His children of their salvation...
It is the Gospel of their salvation:

" In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," ( Ephesians 1:13 )

It is not the message of "potential salvation"...
It is the promise of theirs.

You cannot name anyone now living who cannot possibly be saved.

True.

If God predestined EVERYTHING, He created sin.

He didn't predestinate everything.
He predestinated His children to be adopted as His children, and prophetic events.
Whoever told you that God predestinated everything, is not understanding the Scriptures.

However, He does work all things after the counsel of His own will.
He permits things to happen, and restrains things from happening if He so chooses.

What's more, He didn't create sin...
Lucifer was the original sinner.

Are you saying that because He created Lucifer, that He created sin?
I hope not, sir.
The Bible does not teach that God can sin, that He tempts men to sin, and that we are not responsible for that sin.

Any mention here of pre-elected only ?

Any mention anywhere else of God choosing to reveal Himself to some and not to others?
Yes, there is.
Shall I list them for you?

Next, when you're done "hitting the high points", how about looking at what the rest of His word has to say, roby?
Like Romans 9?
The Psalms?
Ephesians 1?
2 Thessalonians 2?
Romans 8?
Revelation 5?
Revelation 7?
John 6?
John 10?
Isaiah 53?

Honestly, brother...it seems that you have a hard head.
I mean no offense, but do you put very much time into His word,
Or do you simply do as I did for over 25 years, sit in front of a pastor, and open your Bible only when it is time for the sermon?
Admittedly that may seem harsh...but if I'm a mess and can treat my Saviour and His words with indifference and neglect for a long period of time, then any of my brothers and sisters can.

He gave His word to us for a reason, roby.
To study ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ) and to grow ( 1 Peter 2:2 ) from.

It's not a "textbook" that we get "tested out of" where we go to a certain page and paragraph and find the right answer and check a multiple choice box on a quiz or something...
Anyone who knows where to look in Scripture, can put certain pieces of it together to come up with doctrines, whether true or false.

His word is truth ( John 17:17 ), and it is milk and meat, spiritually.
Study it deeply, my friend...
Learn to rightly divide it.

He has a lot to show you.
There are no fast answers, and understanding of it does not come overnight.

 

[robycop3]

Jesus said many things, roby.

Not only did He say, "...whosoever believeth in me should not perish, but have everlasting life.", He also said that no man can come to Him unless it was given to Him to do so by His Father ( John 6:65 ), and that He only gives eternal life to as many as were given to Him by His Father ( John 17:2 ).

Yes, those who chose to believe Jesus were given to Him by His Father.

Put the pieces together, sir.
To me, you're ignoring parts of it.

God's children accept whatever He has to say...all of it ( Matthew 4:4, John 8:47, John 10:27 ).
Are you willing to accept whatever He has to say on any matter, as long as it can be found in Scripture?

I hope so, sir.

Then, please read & believe the Scriptures I copied in my previous post.

No.

Then, you shoot your calvinism in the foot.

Do I define who can be saved by what His word says?

Yes.

And His word says WHOEVER believes in Him & calls upon His name...

If you've truly believed on Christ, from the heart, then you were always one of His elect...

Not til I believed. I was as lost as any other unrepentant sinner.

Since they were chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), they were always "known" by God and were never in danger of going to Hell.
You were made accepted in the beloved ( Ephesians 1:6 )...
Your actions had nothing to do with His choice of you.

I was in danger before I came to Jesus, same as YOU were.

You believed because it was given to you to do so ( Philippians 1:29 ) in the behalf of Christ.

It was given to me when I started believing His word & asked Him to forgive my sins & save me.

Whoever told you that, has the cart before the horse.
They are teaching you that your faith, belief and submission are what saved you, when Scripture says no such thing.

However, it can be made to say such things.
For example, see Mark 10:52 and Luke 7:50.

Jesus didn't say those things to make small talk! He said them cuz they're TRUE !

Directly, as he did with every one of His beloved.

So, He struck you down & asked you why you were fighting Him ?

Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah, David, Peter, John and many others ...they are all your brothers in Christ.
Phoebe, Joanna, Susanna, Mary, Mary Magdalene, Sarah, and many others are all your sisters in Christ.

Paul was no more special to God than any of His other children.
The Lord simply gave him an important office as apostle...a position of great responsibility.
But we are all precious in His sight.

I agree that all Christians are precious in His sight.

We were all dead in trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:5 ), and He sent His beloved Son to die for us ( 1 John 4:10 ).

That's what I was looking for...
The work of God through His word, roby...as with all of His children.

" Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ( John 6:29 )

The work of God is for someone to believe on His Son...
It's all His work, not man's.

Of course. No man knew Jesus before He came.

On a side note:
The moment you believed what the Bible said about your sinful condition and the remedy for it, is when you "came to Jesus".

Of course. before that, I was lost & so were you.

God The Father didn't have His Son go thru what all He did for only just a few people.He makes salvation OPEN TO ALL.

Calvinism is just another false man-made myth made by disregarding several Scriptures. It's in the same category as mariolatry, regenerational baptism, KJVO, etc.

 

[Dave G]

Yes, those who chose to believe Jesus were given to Him by His Father.

I agree.
First they were chosen ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ) then given ( John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:2 ), then they believed when the Gospel was preached to them ( Ephesians 1:13-14 ).

Then, please read & believe the Scriptures I copied in my previous post.

I did and I do.

I also do not read and believe them to the exclusion of other things that He has to say on the matter.

Then, you shoot your calvinism in the foot.

I'm not a "Calvinist".

I believe the Bible, roby.
All of it.

To me, you are the one calling me a "Calvinist" because it seems that you think that I get my understanding of Scripture from John Calvin...
I don't.
Respectfully, I have no use for anything he ever wrote, and don't even own a copy of his "Institutes".
I don't have any use for Augustine's writings, those of John Knox, nor any of the other "Reformers", either.

I have the Scriptures and His Spirit, and that is all that I need...
Everything that I need that pertains to life and godliness through Christ Jesus my Lord ( 2 Peter 1:3 ).

And His word says WHOEVER believes in Him & calls upon His name...

Again, Scripture defines the "whosoever".. and does it in much greater detail than it seems that you are willing to consider.
It also defines, in greater detail, those that call upon His name.

Not everyone that calls Him "Lord" will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 7:21-23 ), roby.
There's a lot more to being saved that simply calling upon His name.

Anyone can have a life-changing experience and "turn over a new leaf".
I've seen many people do it, only to fall away back into a love of the world and its ways.

I hope that that was not what happened for you, and does not happen to you.
What I truly hope is that His word and His Spirit is what got your attention.

That is something that you will have to answer for yourself.
He is your Judge, and He is my Judge.

Not til I believed. I was as lost as any other unrepentant sinner.

Election is not based on belief, roby...
Belief is based on election.

God acts, and the targets of that action then react to His mercy and grace through the spiritual power of His word and of His Spirit.

 

[Dave G]

I was in danger before I came to Jesus, same as YOU were.

Not in any sense of the term.

He is not willing that any of the "us-ward" ( His beloved from verse 8 ) perish, but that we all come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 ).
Of all the ones that the Father gave to the Son, none will perish ( John 6:39 ).
None of His children were in any danger of His eternal wrath...

But we all were afraid of it.

The Bible says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge ( Proverbs 1:7 ) as well as wisdom ( Proverbs 9:10 )...
Do you fear His wrath, roby?

I once did...

But no longer.
Not after studying and believing His every word for well over a decade.
The Scriptures are a comfort to me ( Romans 15:4 ).
I no longer feel condemned by them after 41 years as a believer in Jesus Christ.

I'm now beginning to believe His love for me, and experience my love for Him, despite my hardships in this life.

It was given to me when I started believing His word & asked Him to forgive my sins & save me.

I used to think the same things, and for years.
Studying His word, deeply, is what cured me of that thinking.

The words are what transformed my mind ( Romans 12:2 ), not a man's "interpretation" of them.

With respect, I think that you have it backwards roby.
God doing the acting, and we then re-acting to it, is what makes it all of grace ( Romans 11:5-6 ) and not of debt ( Romans 4:4 ).

What you are proposing is not out of grace, sir.
You are believing that what you do, saves you...
Not what God did for you.

Salvation is "of the Lord" roby...not "of cooperation with the Lord".
What you call "Calvinism", at least with respect to the TULIP, is the truth of Scripture.

If you can't see it, you can't see it.
I've done what I can over the past year or so to try and show you from His word.

This is my final reply in this thread.


I wish you well, and may God bless you in your studies, sir.

 

[Iconoclast]

In one of the concordances I believe it is Strong's, next to the word of foreknowledge is forethought... So can scripture tell us what God's forethought was?... Some brethren say it is based on his omnificence, if that is so then predestination is based on an attribute of God and not on the person of God... Scriptures say GOD IS LOVE!... If God is love, predestination is based on that love.

Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Brother Glen

Yes....God set His eternal saving love on His elect bride,a multitude of sinners who He loves in His Son

 

[Reformed]

He is not willing that any of the "us-ward" ( His beloved from verse 8 ) perish, but that we all come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 ).
Of all the ones that the Father gave to the Son, none will perish ( John 6:39 ).
None of His children were in any danger of His eternal wrath...

Dave, slight point if I may.

Paul writes, in Ephesians 2:1-3, "1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." (Emphasis mine)

No one that the Father elected (chose) in eternity past (Ephesians 1:4) will fail to come to faith in Christ, but prior to our actual conversion (which takes place in-time), we are by nature children of wrath, even as those who will perish in their sins. This is exactly what Paul is saying in Ephesians 2. This does not in any way negate sovereign election but it emphasizes the peril that sin presents. It is similar to what our Lord says in Matthew 24:24, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect." Not that the elect can be mislead from the faith but that is how serious Jesus considered the threat of false prophets.

The reason I point this out is that the biblical doctrine of election and predestination is easily misinterpreted by those who reject it as excusing both evangelism and personal holiness. I mean, hey, if the elect are predestined then why should we share the gospel? Why preach that we should live separate from the world? Because of these objections, I feel a constant obligation to present the doctrine in a way that does not minimize the call for individual repentance from sin and faith in Christ. I also do not believe in eternal justification, that God has justified His elect even before they came to faith in Christ.